The Bravest Characters in Naruto [Manga]

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

The assumption that he doesn't like eternal suffering is reasonably safe. And we've been told he made a 'sacrifice' many a time.



Hmm, thanks for the info, I didn't know about the Kanji. But still, we don't know it would've worked, and we don't know if it did that his soul wouldn't immediately return the death god's belly afterwards. Chances are Sarutobi doesn't know either, so he stopped it to be safe. Btw, it's been told to us outright that he DID figure out how to make a pact with death that damns him for eternity.



I haven't challenged any of your statements that are based on the character, just the assumptions that lead to your concluding that the fourth is not sealed away in eternal suffering. And seriously, we do have enough characters talk about/mention him to know that he is not a sniveling pansy. That one act required more courage than everything we've seen Zabuza do.

So you're saying condemning yourself to something "hellish"

Is more courageous than:

Willingly bringing about the same fate through pain and suffering?

I'm sorry just because you're on death row doesn't mean you want the electric chair any sooner than it has to be. Both acts are equally courageous.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

I doubt Zabuzza would give a rats ass about being sealed away in deaths belly. The guys looking forward to hell. Deaths belly isn't that bad of a place. You know Yondaime is chilling in deaths belly with the 1st, 2nd and 3rd. What's so bad about that? It's not like anyone else is in deaths belly, tell me who else would be in there?

Then it wouldn't be bravery for him either....I'm trying to say that you *have* to care to be called brave. If you don't care, you're not sacrificing anything, and you're not taking any risks.

Zabuzza faces an eternity alone in hell. Obviously this is not something he wanted. Yet he acted anyway. Now I'll say Sarutobis act was more gutsy + courageous than Zabuzzas, simply because I saw him fight, suffer, die and get eaten. What a way to go. I only SAW Yondaime standing on a frog and a flash.

Zabuza was going to face that anyway, so it's not a sacrifice. And, as you said, he probably likes the idea. We don't have to SEE Yondaime make the sacrifice to know that he did. I think when you hear the word 'brave' you can only see it as somebody doing crazy Berserk-Anime-style badass stuff. That's not necessarily what bravery is about.

Sarutobi = the bravest ninja of all time.

Agreed (at least that we've seen so far).

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Then it wouldn't be bravery for him either....I'm trying to say that you *have* to care to be called brave. If you don't care, you're not sacrificing anything, and you're not taking any risks.



Zabuza was going to face that anyway, so it's not a sacrifice. And, as you said, he probably likes the idea. We don't have to SEE Yondaime make the sacrifice to know that he did. I think when you hear the word 'brave' you can only see it as somebody doing crazy Berserk-Anime-style badass stuff. That's not necessarily what bravery is about.



Agreed (at least that we've seen so far).

I edited the crap of it on you my bad lol.

[Macbrother]

Yondaime nut huggers are the worst. Where's the itachi nut huggers at least they have solid shit to base character observations off of =)

Nah, just 'solid shit' like sealing kyuubi, creating shiki fuujin, rasengan, trivial stuff. I guess sarutobi and the rest of the leaf are nut huggers too, I mean my god, look how many times Sarutobi refers to him in admiration in his fight with Orochimaru, ("isn't that right, 4th?) of course, we can't forget about Anko's little "yes, if only he were here..." after Sarutobi admits even he cannot stop Orochimaru. My, my. Just out of curiousity though, do you normally resort to ad hominem this early?

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Macbrother

Nah, just 'solid shit' like sealing kyuubi, creating shiki fuujin, rasengan, trivial stuff. I guess sarutobi and the rest of the leaf are nut huggers too, I mean my god, look how many times Sarutobi refers to him in admiration in his fight with Orochimaru, ("isn't that right, 4th?) of course, we can't forget about Anko's little "yes, if only he were here..." after Sarutobi admits even he cannot stop Orochimaru. My, my. Just out of curiousity though, do you normally resort to ad hominem this early?

Hehe that doesn't mean he's brave, cause rememeber in order to brave you have to act in spite of fear. You can't prove that he was EVER fearful. Why? Because we don't know shit about the character. Now I'll tell you that Zabuzza is fearful, he was freaked out when Kakashi was copying his shit lol, but he acted in spite of it.

And could someone besides you tell me wtf ad hominem means. I'm to lazy to look it up and I want to see how common of a term it is. If it's not very common it's useless to use if the person has no idea what you're talking about. Lets stick to a 3rd grade level of discussion here, it is a cartoon after all.

Oh and yes, they are nuthuggers. Stop gasping at how great someone else is and deal with the situation at hand. Little bitches. Orochimaru does the same crap what if, how comes, too bad, friggin pansies. Zabuzza makes no excuses and begs for noone. Accept shiz and deal with it.

[Macbrother]

Oh, I wasn't saying that in reference to bravery, I said all that already. This was in reference to the 'nut hugger' comment.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

I edited the crap of it on you my bad lol.

Damn u! :P

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

So you're saying condemning yourself to something "hellish"

Is more courageous than:

Willingly bringing about the same fate through pain and suffering?

I'm sorry just because you're on death row doesn't mean you want the electric chair any sooner than it has to be. Both acts are equally courageous.

I'm saying though that Zabuza didn't condemn himself to anything. He was already going to get death and eternity and hell, the only thing *he willingly brought on himself* was some stabbing. Yondaime willingly sacrificed life for not only death, but eternal suffering. This is a *huge* sacrifice.

He could have run away, and not died, and not went to Death's belly. Or he could have fought without that jutsu and just died and not gone to Death's belly. Zabuza had no such similar option, if he tried to retreat Kakashi would have killed him and sent him to hell easily. To a ninja (or anyone for that matter), a few minutes of stabbing is not as big of a sacrifice.

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

Damn u! :P



I'm saying though that Zabuza didn't condemn himself to anything. He was already going to get death and eternity and hell, the only thing *he willingly brought on himself* was some stabbing. Yondaime willingly sacrificed life for not only death, but eternal suffering. This is a *huge* sacrifice.

He could have run away, and not died, and not went to Death's belly. Or he could have fought without that jutsu and just died and not gone to Death's belly. Zabuza had no such similar option, if he tried to retreat Kakashi would have killed him and sent him to hell easily. To a ninja (or anyone for that matter), a few minutes of stabbing is not as big of a sacrifice.

Kakashi wouldn't have killed him, Kakashi agreed that their fight was over. Pay attention to the story, k, thx. Kakashis job was to protect the bridge builder, Zabuzzas job was to kill him. One the bridge builder forfeited his end of the bargain Kakashi and Zabuzzas fight was over. Kakashi clearly agrees to this! If Kakashis plan was too still kill Zabuzza he would have THEN and there.

Are you reading Shonen jump american translations or something?

Btw, how was going to hell for Zabuzza unavoidable? Zabuzza did sacrifice going into the unknown. Which I think is a whole lot scarier than going into an empty deaths belly. Remember no matter how bad most people are, they still think they have a chance to go to heaven. Read/listen to what Zabuzza says while dying whether in YOUR mind he was going there anyway. He was uncertain himself, so yes he did sacrfice his life or what time he had left of it for what could have been eternal suffering.

It's not like he knew he was going to hell, but he purposely through himself to the bowels of an unknown fate. When he DID have a choice. Now you may argue that knowing your going to deaths belly is worse than the fear of going to heaven/hell. What would I say to that? Depends on the indiviual.

I reiterate: Kakashi was not going to kill him, if he was, he would have. You're pretty damn thick if you didn't understand the exchange between Kakashi and Zabuzza. Which is the whole reason why Naruto didn't understand WHY he wasn't their enemy anymore.

And since you are obviosly repeating the same things over and over, read what I wrote and if you can't comprehend any of it. Ask me what it means, and don't use it as an opportunity to retype everything you already said. I'd suggest using control + C and control + V instead it will save you a lot of time.

The one sole reason why Yondaime can NEVER win this argument is we don't know if the fugger ever expressed fear at all. You can't be brave if you have no fear. So determining how brave the punk is, is impossible.

I'm officially done with this argument because I just don't have time for someone who doesn't understand simple dialogue.

Kakashi still planning on killing Zabuzza hah!

[UnCauzi]

Originally Posted by Shadamehr

To a ninja (or anyone for that matter), a few minutes of stabbing is not as big of a sacrifice.

That line is just stupid. Where are you talking about in the real world or naruto verse? Oh yeah I'm sure the bridge builder would have let himself get stabbed multiple times for a kid that's already dead no problem. Lol. Oh and I'll ask my neighbor if he thinks it's no big deal if he thinks it would be a small sacrficie to get stabbed multiple times because he saw someone kick his dead sons grave. Lol.

Okay you're fired from posting.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

That line is just stupid. Where are you talking about in the real world or naruto verse? Oh yeah I'm sure the bridge builder would have let himself get stabbed multiple times for a kid that's already dead no problem. Lol. Oh and I'll ask my neighbor if he thinks it's no big deal if he thinks it would be a small sacrficie to get stabbed multiple times because he saw someone kick his dead sons grave. Lol.

Okay you're fired from posting.

Read it together with the other words next to it. I'm sure most would agree that a few minutes of stabbing is "not as big of a sacrifice [as an eternity of suffering]"

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

Kakashi wouldn't have killed him, Kakashi agreed that their fight was over. Pay attention to the story, k, thx. Kakashis job was to protect the bridge builder, Zabuzzas job was to kill him. One the bridge builder forfeited his end of the bargain Kakashi and Zabuzzas fight was over. Kakashi clearly agrees to this! If Kakashis plan was too still kill Zabuzza he would have THEN and there.

Dude, Kakashi didn't say anything about them being done fighting. "This fight is over" is also used to mean "There's no way you can win". Zabuza is an S-class criminal. Kakashi can't just let someone like that waltz away, it's his job as a Leaf jounin to kill Zabuza.

Btw, how was going to hell for Zabuzza unavoidable? Zabuzza did sacrifice going into the unknown. Which I think is a whole lot scarier than going into an empty deaths belly. Remember no matter how bad most people are, they still think they have a chance to go to heaven. Read/listen to what Zabuzza says while dying whether in YOUR mind he was going there anyway. He was uncertain himself, so yes he did sacrfice his life or what time he had left of it for what could have been eternal suffering.

If there's a chance that Zabuza wasn't going to hell, that makes his act *less* brave, not more. Which is worse, eternal suffering or a chance of eternal suffering? The unknown is not as bad as the known if the known is a worst-possible-situation scenario.

It's not like he knew he was going to hell, but he purposely through himself to the bowels of an unknown fate. When he DID have a choice. Now you may argue that knowing your going to deaths belly is worse than the fear of going to heaven/hell. What would I say to that? Depends on the indiviual.

The narutoverse agrees that its worse, or they wouldn't list that as a PRICE of the jutsu.

More flaming.

Show me where Kakashi says he wasn't going to kill Zabuza? You might want to try the stance that other people are allowed to disagree with your interpretation of the manga. If you can show me a direct statement that proves he wasn't going to kill Zabuza, I'll agree. If it's just your interpretation, then it's just your interpretation.

[SwiftStar]

I dont know if these have been said already as I dont feel like reading all the posts but:

Naruto: The boy doesnt know the meaning of the word give up, even in the face of overwhelming odds.

Shikimaru: When he stayed behind to cover Naruto and Sakura's backs he impressed me. I didnt know he had it in him.

[Raging Youma]

Originally Posted by UnCauzi

The one sole reason why Yondaime can NEVER win this argument is we don't know if the fugger ever expressed fear at all. You can't be brave if you have no fear. So determining how brave the punk is, is impossible.

Are you serious?!?!?! how can you say that yondaime was never afraid of KYUUBI or going to hell and suffer for eternity? weve never seen the fight between him and kyuubi, but i still dnt see why you need facts to believe it. c'mon man, youre better than this. we dnt need facts to prove that.

The fact that his enemy is one of the strongest beings in the naruto world is enough to conclude that he, in one way or another, is also fearful. you have to remember that he's also human. Fear will always be inside of us. it'll never dissapear. Now what more if he's facing kyuubi?

The same goes if your going to death's belly and suffer for eternity. in fact thats even more scarier than facing kyuubi.

Or just think of it this way: your facing a demon and one of the strongest beings, you know that youll die, and the only way to save the village is to perform a seal but at the cost of your life. but the problem is even if you die, your soul still will never rest. you'll suffer for all eternity. how can it get more frightening than that?

Zabuza may wont know where he's going, but isnt that a little better? atleast he still has a chance to go to 'heaven'. but plz look at yondaime, the guy already knew that he will never go to heaven. not in a million years. but despite that, he still sacrificed himself for the village. that is like the bravest act of all. now anyone who is not afraid of it for even a lil bit, is not human, i assure you that.

Shadamehr, here is the conversation of zabuza and kakashi at the end of their fight in the bridge:

Zabuza: "Kakashi im sorry. This fight is over. Now that i have no reason to go after Tazuna, i have no reason to fight you.

Kakashi: Ah. Your right.

and few pages after that:

Zabuza: As i was used by Gatou, I used Haku, thats all it was. Ive said it already, bla, bla, bla.

Naruto: Hey! Do you really meant that?

Kakashi: Stop Naruto! We are not fighting him anymore.

So yeah UnCauzi is right, Kakashi had no intention of killing Zabuza any longer.

[realdeal]

Originally Posted by Raging Youma

Are you serious?!?!?! how can you say that yondaime was never afraid of KYUUBI or going to hell and suffer for eternity? weve never seen the fight between him and kyuubi, but i still dnt see why you need facts to believe it. c'mon man, youre better than this. we dnt need facts to prove that.

The fact that his enemy is one of the strongest beings in the naruto world is enough to conclude that he, in one way or another, is also fearful. you have to remember that he's also human. Fear will always be inside of us. it'll never dissapear. Now what more if he's facing kyuubi?

The same goes if your going to death's belly and suffer for eternity. in fact thats even more scarier than facing kyuubi.

Or just think of it this way: your facing a demon and one of the strongest beings, you know that youll die, and the only way to save the village is to perform a seal but at the cost of your life. but the problem is even if you die, your soul still will never rest. you'll suffer for all eternity. how can it get more frightening than that?

Zabuza may wont know where he's going, but isnt that a little better? atleast he still has a chance to go to 'heaven'. but plz look at yondaime, the guy already knew that he will never go to heaven. not in a million years. but despite that, he still sacrificed himself for the village. that is like the bravest act of all. now anyone who is not afraid of it for even a lil bit, is not human, i assure you that.

Shadamehr, here is the conversation of zabuza and kakashi at the end of their fight in the bridge:

Zabuza: "Kakashi im sorry. This fight is over. Now that i have no reason to go after Tazuna, i have no reason to fight you.

Kakashi: Ah. Your right.

and few pages after that:

Zabuza: As i was used by Gatou, I used Haku, thats all it was. Ive said it already, bla, bla, bla.

Naruto: Hey! Do you really meant that?

Kakashi: Stop Naruto! We are not fighting him anymore.

So yeah UnCauzi is right, Kakashi had no intention of killing Zabuza any longer.

I think kakashi knew that zabuza was gonna take on gatou and his men though. If zabuza intentions was simply, our fight is over..will you let me run away..kakashi reaction would have been very different. It happens in films all the time, where 2 characters are locked in a battle until another baddy comes along, char A battle is with char C so char B backs off.

[Shadamehr]

Originally Posted by Raging Youma

Shadamehr, here is the conversation of zabuza and kakashi at the end of their fight in the bridge:

Zabuza: "Kakashi im sorry. This fight is over. Now that i have no reason to go after Tazuna, i have no reason to fight you.

Kakashi: Ah. Your right.

and few pages after that:

Zabuza: As i was used by Gatou, I used Haku, thats all it was. Ive said it already, bla, bla, bla.

Naruto: Hey! Do you really meant that?

Kakashi: Stop Naruto! We are not fighting him anymore.

So yeah UnCauzi is right, Kakashi had no intention of killing Zabuza any longer.

Hmm, I just went back and checked and you're both totally right. I guess I must've been smoking something when I read it, because I remembered it differently. So, yeah, I guess Zabuza was making a pretty big sacrifice going after Gatou by himself. I still think the Yondaime's was greater, though.