Opinions about Railgun S and Cinematography (Derailed due to flamebait, locked)

[ssme80386]

This ep, like all Accelerator sub-arc so far, is pain to watch.

This whole season of Railgun is disgusting. WHERE IS THE FANSERVICE? Nowhere in sight.

Instead we have “fighting” scene stretched over “infinite 8″ episodes, where, after each body movement, the characters freeze and deliver a speech about meaning of life.

Then another step – and another speech about human relationships. One more step – one more speech.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

This ep, like all Accelerator sub-arc so far, is pain to watch. [...]

I'm going to put a stop to this off-topic tangent now, because it'll just because a giant fight between people who like the action/fighting aspects of the Index/Railgun franchise, and people who like the more light-hearted elements of the first anime, and will just derail the whole thread.

If we really must have this discussion, let's not do it in the Episode 15 anime thread. I do respect that you and everyone has a right to their opinion (and that's why I didn't delete your post), but we don't need to entertain a flamewar.

[ssme80386]

Roger!

Can we discuss (awful) pacing of this and previous eps?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Can we discuss (awful) pacing of this and previous eps?

You can give your opinions about this episode in this Episode 15 thread. But please try to remain objective, even if you didn't enjoy it. "Awful pacing" is just a matter of perspective and opinion, not fact.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Roger!

Can we discuss (awful) pacing of this and previous eps?

Pacing is really a matter of perspective. Your opinion on pacing will vary wildly based on whether or not you've experienced the source material as well.

Personally, I think that Railgun S has a more than acceptable pacing, especially in comparison to the rest of the anime I've seen this year. It's been relatively slow and gradual, and these last couple of episodes really haven't been any different.

[Reality_Breaker]

Originally Posted by Traece

Pacing is really a matter of perspective. Your opinion on pacing will vary wildly based on whether or not you've experienced the source material as well.

Personally, I think that Railgun S has a more than acceptable pacing, especially in comparison to the rest of the anime I've seen this year. It's been relatively slow and gradual, and these last couple of episodes really haven't been any different.

I have to agree with you I find the pacing of Railgun S to be perfect since it covers each manga chapter faithfully to the point of having the exact same cliffhangers as the manga, but as you said it's a matter of perspective.

[ssme80386]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

"Awful pacing" is just a matter of perspective and opinion, not fact .

Really? Then one can say that EVERYTHING related to a movie/anime is matter of "perspective and opinion". Then what's the point having a "discussion" thread at all?

There is such factual thing as pacing/timing in movies. And, sorry, Reality_Breaker, it has nothing to do with "covering manga chapters faithfully".

The problem with pacing of fights in Index/Railgun2 is that during what should have been a fluid action, the characters often stop and deliver whole speeches explaining what they feel right now and their views regarding composition of The Universe.

That can work for a book (if used properly), but not for a visual media. Big F.

In contrast let me give you a couple of examples of good pacing fights in anime: Homura's fight at the end of ep 11, and Sayaka x Kyoko fight at the end of ep 5 in Madoka.

The latter one shows how you can incorporate characters talking during the fight without losing pace.

Also the whole idea of a character delivering a speech about how and why s/he feels now is another Big F for Index/railgun2. Anime is a visual medium, so feelings should be conveyed to a viewer using <i>mostly</i> visual means. Talking heads are no-no.

[Reality_Breaker]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Really? Then one can say that EVERYTHING related to a movie/anime is matter of "perspective and opinion". Then what's the point having a "discussion" thread at all?

There is such factual thing as pacing/timing in movies. And, sorry, Reality_Breaker, it has nothing to do with "covering manga chapters faithfully".

The problem with pacing of fights in Index/Railgun2 is that during what should have been a fluid action, the characters often stop and deliver whole speeches explaining what they feel right now and their views regarding composition of The Universe.

That can work for a book (if used properly), but not for a visual media. Big F.

In contrast let me give you a couple of examples of good pacing fights in anime: Homura's fight at the end of ep 11, and Sayaka x Kyoko fight at the end of ep 5 in Madoka.

The latter one shows how you can incorporate characters talking during the fight without losing pace.

Also the whole idea of a character delivering a speech about how and why s/he feels now is another Big F for Index/railgun2. Anime is a visual medium, so feelings should be conveyed to a viewer using <i>mostly</i> visual means. Talking heads are no-no.

But the thing is if as you say the studio where to focus more on the action then we lose the perspective of the characters, of course they stop and state what they think because they're supposed to let us know their side of the argument. Would the fight have felt better to you if at the beginning of the episode Touma just ran to Accelerator and punched him without showing us how pissed he was?, would you if you hadn't read the Light Novel or mangas (this is assuming you did) understood that Touma wanted to first find out if Accelerator was being forced to participate in the experiment or not to try and reason or help him? Then there's the source material to take int account you do realize that since this is from Misaka Mikotos point of view the whole fight wasn't shown, right?

Now I also would like it if there were more action but the studio who are trying to adapt the manga as faithfully as possible can't just shoehorn scenes that don't exist or aren't shown because that in itself will cause problems one of which is the lenght of the episode. You also have to take into account that Touma isn't like other main characters that have powers that let them fight and talk while flying and destroying everything in the way while spamming their powers, the author makes Toumas fight like this because since Touma fights while trying to decipher his enemies weakness (which he has to do while trying to survive fights with people that can level city blocks if they wanted) the only way for him to be able to get his point across is in those breaks where he says or does something that either shocks or surpises his enemies and then they get caught up in his pacing. Now I haven't seen those anime (not my type, I saw one episode of Madoka and didn't like it) but you have to realize this are different kinds of anime, TAMNI/TAKNR go for a more realistic (at least as much as posible while having ability users) way of fighting because of Toumas limits, while in other anime since they aren't limited because of their powers they can fight and talk at the same time without dropping a beat (unless it's Naruto who talks all time).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Really? Then one can say that EVERYTHING related to a movie/anime is matter of "perspective and opinion".

Yes, that is exactly the case.

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Then what's the point having a "discussion" thread at all?

So that everyone has an opportunity to share their perspective/opinions and to understand the views of others who see things differently. And in this case, based on the rest of the posts in this thread and the results of the (unscientific) poll, you might conclude that this is an opportunity for you to understand the views of others, since many appear to see things differently than yourself. And people will also try to understand where you're coming from, too.

[SeventhNight]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

This ep, like all Accelerator sub-arc so far, is pain to watch.

This whole season of Railgun is disgusting. WHERE IS THE FANSERVICE? Nowhere in sight.

Instead we have “fighting” scene stretched over “infinite 8″ episodes, where, after each body movement, the characters freeze and deliver a speech about meaning of life.

Then another step – and another speech about human relationships. One more step – one more speech.

...I have a suspicion that your trolling but I'll answer anyway. First of all if your a fan of Railgun because of fanservice... why? Sure the entire Raildex franchise has had fanservice throughout but it's typically mild and never really was ever the focus of the franchise.

Second is that just because an arc is taking its time (which is utterly a breath of fresh air in anime) doesn't mean its poorly paced. Its not like Haruhi where the essentially the same episode was repeated for several episodes, things are getting accomplished each episode so it doesn't feel like they're doing nothing.

[mod edit: removed tangent about other shows with "poor pacing"]

Railgun S has not only taken its time with the source material but has also added a couple of scenes from Index that helped to strengthen the material from the Railgun manga

[relentlessflame]

As I said before, please don't turn this thread into a flamewar between "action fans" and "fanservice" fans. People are allow to have their opinions about the content, but there's no point about arguing about that in this Episode 15 thread, as it really isn't on-topic to this episode.

[Marcus H.]

So that everyone has an opportunity to share their perspective/opinions and to understand the views of others who see things differently.

You just nuked "the views of others who see things differently" several pages ago.

This whole season of Railgun is disgusting. WHERE IS THE FANSERVICE? Nowhere in sight.

This guy is obviously trolling. Nothing to see here.

As for the episode: mostly everything has been said already. The rendition of the fight, albeit short, knows where to hit the viewer and hits them hard. Whether it is Mikoto's show of emotions as Touma faces the Unstoppable Force by himself or Touma's blood-pumping fist to the strongest's face, everything is polished and well done.

We need the staff for Railgun S for Index III.

[OH&S]

I think that calling them fanservice fans is a bit inaccurate (there was little blatant fanservice in the previous season). But I agree that this not the thread for such a polarizing debate.

I personally think that the pacing of this season has been fantastic in regards to the chapters being adapted. The pacing definitely slowed down when reaching the material that was simultaneously covered by Index. But when you think of the differences between the manga and the anime and what experience the creator/director of each version intended for its viewers, that can be forgiven.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Marcus H.

You just nuked "the views of others who see things differently" several pages ago.

Yes, and do you know why, or is this just some sort of a veiled accusation? There are rules for the topics that can be discussed in this thread. You cannot allude to future content. You cannot discuss the Index anime. You cannot discuss the manga or the novels, except for limited comparisons to shown content behind spoiler tags. You cannot post things that are not related to the Railgun anime and this episode. And you cannot reply to posts that do any of the above. That is why certain posts were removed. In almost every case, there are other threads between the Index and Railgun sub-forums and their novel/manga sub-sub-forums where these topics can be discussed instead.

If you or anyone else have any questions about why a certain post was deleted, you are welcome to PM me or any other member of the staff. But don't post this sort of off-topic accusatory crap in the episode threads, or guess what: it'll be "nuked".

[ssme80386]

Hmmm....

My "where is the fanservice" was a 90%-joke. Wasn't it obvious? Sorry if it wasn't, though, other things being equal, I would prefer an anime with fanservice.

Now:

Reality Breaker said:

[if anime were] to focus more on the action then we lose the perspective of the characters, of course they stop and state what they think because they're supposed to let us know their side of the argument

(bold mine)

No, RealityBreaker, they don't "stop and state". This is a movie we are talking about. Not a book. Not a visual novel.

In a movie, if there is smthing to be conveyed to the audience, it should be done by mostly visual means. No, it is not easy. That's why there are so few good movies around.

"Stop and state" is the domain of visual novels, radio shows, and TV news.

Also, you said a lot about underlying manga/source/etc, "faithfully following manga",..... you seem to see anime as just illustration for the original manga/LN. Am I correct?

Should anime be just LN illustration? Should anime follow manga faithfully? Why?!

If a book uses "stop and state" trick (which is ok for a printed medium), why transfer it "as is" to the totally different medium - movies - where it is a big no-no?

And all this is relevant not only to that particular fight. The whole sisters arc so far is riddled with "stop and state".

Actually, whenever Touma shows up in Index/Railgun2 - it is always "stop and state" with pathetic speeches in the middle of action that's pain to watch.

I am borrowing your "stop and state" phrase. I like it. It perfectly describes the very common problem with anime and amateur movies. Remember movie from Hyouka? Stop and state, stop and state...

[Chaos2Frozen]

@ssme80386

I noticed something about both your posts- you seem to avoid talking about a specific scene or moment and instead chose a sweeping generalization over the entire episode. Your statements and examples are so overly exaggerated that aside from dropping names like Accelerator and Kamijou, nobody could tell that you're referring to this episode. The arguments that you do detailed about have nothing to do with the Anime and instead used outside examples like Madoka.

And I also noticed that unlike the others here when they present their arguments, not once did you bring up the context of the story- Again, it's more of a sweeping generalization.

It would prefer if you be more specific with the details before people can address any of them.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

*snip*

I completely agree with your comments about the proper use of exposition in visual mediums. Having characters state the goings-on of the show in ye olde dialogue is such a painful thing to watch. There is no single thing an anime can do that will make me angrier than if they do terrible exposition like this.

Which is why your post is funny to me, as I've harbored little to no complaints about spoken-word exposition in this show.

Are we discussing the exposition of what Accelerator is doing? Are we talking about the internal monologue of the characters in relation to their battles? Is this suddenly unnecessary audio exposition in a visual medium? No. It's not. It's not because no matter how fatigued Misaka Mikoto is, the viewers aren't aware of her feelings or her limitations. That's why Mikoto needs to internally explain that she is, in fact, rather fatigued. This is why Accelerator has to have internal monologues about Touma kicking his ass. Quite frankly, I suspect the odds of anyone correctly guessing that Accelerator was creating plasma at being a waste of time to guess at, so you can't be referencing that.

So what are you talking about? What exposition did these rare action sequences in Railgun S have that made it so hard for you to stomach, and made the pacing so bothersome to you? What you seem to be confused about, is that you think that Railgun S is some typical shounen action anime. Unfortunately this isn't Naruto, or any other such title. Action is not the primary goal here. Perhaps you can do me the favor of putting forth some detailed examples and reasoning as to why the pacing bothers you. Otherwise, I suspect you may have Railgun S pegged as the wrong genre.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Traece

So what are you talking about? What exposition did these rare action sequences in Railgun S have that made it so hard for you to stomach, and made the pacing so bothersome to you? What you seem to be confused about, is that you think that Railgun S is some typical shounen action anime. Unfortunately this isn't Naruto, or any other such title. Action is not the primary goal here. Perhaps you can do me the favor of putting forth some detailed examples and reasoning as to why the pacing bothers you. Otherwise, I suspect you may have Railgun S pegged as the wrong genre.

Pretty much this; aside from name dropping two characters, nothing he has said could be identified to this episode.

Not to mention the exaggerations doesn't help.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

This ep, like all Accelerator sub-arc so far, is pain to watch.

This whole season of Railgun is disgusting. WHERE IS THE FANSERVICE? Nowhere in sight.

Instead we have “fighting” scene stretched over “infinite 8″ episodes, where, after each body movement, the characters freeze and deliver a speech about meaning of life.

Then another step – and another speech about human relationships. One more step – one more speech.

Fortunately that fanservice is gone for now...<__<

As for pacing....you can't compress this arc and expect it to work. Besides, the fight isn't really about "fight" per se

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by ssme80386

Hmmm....

My "where is the fanservice" was a 90%-joke. Wasn't it obvious? Sorry if it wasn't, though, other things being equal, I would prefer an anime with fanservice.

Now:

Reality Breaker said: (bold mine)

No, RealityBreaker, they don't "stop and state". This is a movie we are talking about. Not a book. Not a visual novel.

In a movie, if there is smthing to be conveyed to the audience, it should be done by mostly visual means. No, it is not easy. That's why there are so few good movies around.

"Stop and state" is the domain of visual novels, radio shows, and TV news.

Also, you said a lot about underlying manga/source/etc, "faithfully following manga",..... you seem to see anime as just illustration for the original manga/LN. Am I correct?

Should anime be just LN illustration? Should anime follow manga faithfully? Why?!

If a book uses "stop and state" trick (which is ok for a printed medium), why transfer it "as is" to the totally different medium - movies - where it is a big no-no?

And all this is relevant not only to that particular fight. The whole sisters arc so far is riddled with "stop and state".

Actually, whenever Touma shows up in Index/Railgun2 - it is always "stop and state" with pathetic speeches in the middle of action that's pain to watch.

I am borrowing your "stop and state" phrase. I like it. It perfectly describes the very common problem with anime and amateur movies. Remember movie from Hyouka? Stop and state, stop and state...

Okay, now your position is making sense. Essentially, its not the fact that this series in particular feels bad paced to you because of the medium it has been adapted from but the fact that the industry as a whole treat manga/LN adaptations the same way. This is quite difficult to comment on. On one hand, this is how the industry and medium have evolved and these kind of straight up adaptations contain all of the quirks of the original material; though the fans have come to accept it. On the other, the anime staff have not done anything to make the pacing flow more natural ie rework the material specifically for a nicely paced anime. Is it okay for the inustry as a whole to become comfortable doing this? I dont know. But this is the thing with anime adaptations. Why go into extra work (possibly costly) reworking the script for pacing when you have a known fanbase that will be satisfied with a straight up well presented and animated adaptation and accept those pacing quirks as a norm for the industry/franchise.

Though this 'stop and state' 'technique' is bit more problematic for the Index franchise as a whole due to its heavy exposition and aforementioned fight talks. In particular it gets very detailed and technical when talking about the framework of its supernatural phenomenon and detailing all of its technobabble. You risk leaving holes in the plot or fight direction if you try to streamline the conversation. I concede that there are times that I wonder if a studio ever manages to perfectly adapt the original material into an anime, would that anime still BE a good anime? Railgun S episode 15 certainly gives me hope. I agree that the 'stop and state' moments should be addressed to a certain extent in regards to pacing, though in the case of this series so far, its hardly keeping me from getting absorbed in the events which are occurring. Railgun S as a whole isnt really a good example of what you are complaining about. Index and Index II more so due to the aforemntioned problems.