2008-01-17, 04:00 | Link #81 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Further, the assassins stated they were ordered to Lacus killed secretly, thus implying that the person who sent them wanted Meer to stay as the "true Lacus". Hence all enemies of PLANT are ruled out. If an anti-Coordinator group like Blue Cosmos knew about the fake Lacus, it would be to their benefit in harming Durandal's powerbase by exposing his lies to the public.
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2008-01-17, 10:28 | Link #82 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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Um, when I said "Lacus" was legit - I was pertaining to her actions...actions which were a curious mirror to what Lacus did in SEED.
There could still be other groups who would wish to kill Lacus. Recall that Yuna KNEW about Kira, which was supposed to be top secret. If that hasn't slipped, I will probably "believe" that Dully is the "mastermind" behind it all. It does not mean that since the person who ordered the assassins to kill Lacus secretly = Dullindal already no doubt about that period. I mean, Yuna could've probably had Lacus killed and frames Cagalli for it, anyone can do that. But this is the CE remember, anything can happen... we must not also rule out that it could also happen that way, as we are all going on assumptions on this part. Saying that there are no other PLANT enemies than Dully who could've done it - it's now becoming more of the case of "stereotyping" again, just because Dully was shown to have "shady" actions throughout the entire series...it could be plotted by Malchio for all we care, maybe rabid Zala supporters who could know that Lacus secretly hides in the orphanage, or some other faction, but still Dully gets the blame. Also, he can't kill Lacus. He could've probably used Meer as a bait to lure Lacus out of hiding, and maybe they could've worked something out in the end. He stated that he needs Lacus, so probably doing anything to Lacus could mean that his "entire plan" would not work according to plan. Killing Lacus secretly when in truth she has Terminal in the PLANTs... that would mean that Terminal would move, and probably do everything in their power to snuff Dully's power and maybe send him to a nondescript island somewhere, and all his little plans would not have borne fruit. If Dully was adamant in putting Meer as the REAL Lacus, he could've already done something within the 2 years that have passed, because Lacus would be the real obstruction to his power, doing anything right now would threaten his power very much, as he now fully knows that Lacus has indeed set up a watchdog on PLANT.
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2008-01-17, 10:36 | Link #83 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Throwing random theories out there doesn't do your argument any good if you don't have motive. And Gilbert was the only one who know that Meer isn't Lacus and could benefit from her death. You can't frame someone for murdering Lacus if "Lacus" is still alive in Plant and sing songs by Gilbert's side. And you ESPECIALLY can't frame someone for killing Lacus if you are going to hide the fact that she was ever killed. I repeat: It is a fact that the Assassins were ordered to kill Lacus secretly, this contradicts any plans to frame anyone. If you want to frame someone, you want a Media Circus to blow it out of proportion. Gilbert wasn't being framed, Cagalli wasn't being framed, no one could be framed. The assassins had only one goal; for there to be only one, Gilbert-controlled Lacus remain in this world. Quote:
And he obviously DID plan something; he planned how he was going to kill her. What, you think assassinations of VIPs can be planned in weeks? I am sure he would have done this sooner, had he not being busy ordering the construction of that mini Deathstar... EDIT: Oh, and of course, in order for his plans to work, Gilbert needed to GET a fake Lacus first. That couldn't have been easy, finding Meer and getting all that surgery done...
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2008-01-17 at 10:55. |
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2008-01-17, 11:17 | Link #84 |
Tsubasa No Kami
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Why did Dully wait for Destiny to happen before making his move? He probably had his own connections back then, he could've probably known that Lacus was hiding - why didn't he use that time given to him to kill Lacus, if he was solely bent on taking the power himself even before Destiny? Also, the given time frame in Destiny is too short - the Lacus assassination happens just around 5 episodes or something before Meer was introduced to the Archangel. Knowing how Dully "worked" to make everything go as planned - from manipulating Shinn, Athrun to an extent - his shoddy treatment of the Lacus assassination plot is very mediocre at best. If he didn't know about Kira, why would he mumble something about the chess pieces - knowing full well that when they are together, they're a "power" feared by everyone else in the CE timeline? Dully must've known of what Kira could do, since he "knows" Lacus very well enough to "assassinate" her, and should've known better than deploying "Coordinators" and top level ZAFT MS to kill Lacus. He doesn't seem surprised at all that Freedom was there, so he knows what Kira can do in that suit. Or maybe he was. In any case, as we all know what Dully can do, the Lacus assassination plot doesn't look like Dully made to me - in the sense that it was all thought out, and should've happened a long time before Meer was introduced to the Archangel, given his plans are very well-polished.
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2008-01-17, 11:55 | Link #85 |
a visitor from Moon Moon
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Hi everyone, first of all, this is not a flame, is a crazy idea about who plan the killing attempt.
I think it was the only person who benefit for the war at the end, and with the power and the intelligence to plan it. Lacus Clyne No, I am not joking, think about it, she has the infrastructure and the contacts to send professionals coordinators and give them modern mobile suites. Now you will ask "why?" well, let's see: 1) just after the end of the war, she couldn't return to the PLANTs because she was the leader of a terrorist faction, even if she return, she will not have any political power, because all the PLANTs where a mess. 2) In the earth she could wait, after all she was an heroine, sooner or later she would be exonerated, now she only need to wait for the chance to be the heroine once again. 3) With the fall of junius-7 and the new war between the federation and the PLANTs she have the chance, but Kira lost the courage to fight. 4)With the assasination attempt, Kira choose to pilot once again, and not only that, she could use the attempt to frame Durandal, to strenght the decision of his followers (remember, in the discussion betweeb Azthuran and Kira the only "but" was THE assasination attempt). 5) She went to space, there she build the stronger Mobile suites, and send DaCosta to look in the laboratory for "something" that will reveal the "true nature" of Durandal (she doesn't know about the Destiny plan or the diary, soo she send DaCosta to found Anything that she could use to justify her next step) 6)Now she just need to wait until one side where finished, in she would not enter a three side war, she con focus in the winner, and she do it, when she returns to earth is when Logos is almost complete defeated. 7) Now, she appear on tv and expose the false lacus plot, with this simple gesture she make a glorious return to the mind of ALL the people, also and more important she give the first blow in the image of Durandal, who was using a Double of Lacus. 8)Now, with a nervous Durandal and the diary, she only need to wait until he implement the Destiny plan, then she would proclaim that the plan against the freedom of the humanity and would make her move against him 9) After the Dedeat of Durandal, she make her triumphant return to the PLANTS as the chairwoman, now she was the true heroine, who save everyone and withous opposition. Long live the Queen. Of course I am not saying that Durandal was a good guy, he was evil and all, but he was not stupid, the assassionation attempt was a bad idea, it was telling them "look, Durandal Do it", and he was not the type to make such mistake. Why send a commando of obvious coordinator soldiers in military equip if you can kill her in others ways, that will not make you the obvious suspect Well thanks for reading |
2008-01-17, 11:56 | Link #86 | ||
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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Weak Naturals and cheap mass-produced MS? You said it yourself, the best of the best was sent to kill Lacus. You said Gilbert should have known better... What was he suppose to have known better? If you want someone dead, you send in your best troops. Quote:
Lacus could have assumed control of PLANT immediately after the last war. She just wasn't interested.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2008-01-17 at 12:07. |
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2008-01-17, 12:35 | Link #87 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2008-01-17, 15:55 | Link #88 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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And there, his reasons for lying were obvious. He wanted an excuse for making a fake, so Athrun wouldn't turn against him. What he really needed was a Lacus-shaped mouthpiece to do his bidding. Not the real, actual Lacus with a mind of her own. In fact, he needed that real Lacus to die to insure the perennity of his own Lacus. Quote:
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He was charismatic enough, in his way. But his charisma was that of a mature man, not of quasi-religious icon of purity and good will like Lacus. Quote:
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2008-01-17, 17:35 | Link #89 |
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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Many people have brought up many good clues pointing to Dullandle as the culprit. But then, in the words of Samuel Vimes, clues are a wonderful thing. You can walk around with a bunch of them in your back pocket.
Some delimmas that should be considered. Coordinator commandos? You wouldn't know it by looking at them. Overpowered by a crippled coordinator, out-gunned and outperformed by a natural ex-mechanic-turned-captain-turned civilian with just a pistol? The fact that they were discovered as easily as they were? And these are supposed to be Dullandle's best and brightest, or at least best? Considering how back in Seed, when even Kira could physically manhandle Sai despite any experience in hand-to-hand, does no one see the problem in that? And Ashe mobile-suits? Latest-off-the-lines MS are the kind of proof that any investigator dealing with SF would laugh at. Let's ignore the fact that ZAFT has a piss-poor record of keeping prototype MS safe, let alone production models. Or that we have a giant secret Military-Industrial Complex with connections everywhere in the Earth Sphere and especially in Orb and likely in ZAFT as well. Or that these top-secret models were known to Andy. No one with half a brain, and Dully counts as having three or more, would ever be stupid enough to arm Special Forces with any equipment that can only have come from one source. There's a reason that covert plausible-deniability units go around with gear that can be obtained from various sources, and that's been a fact for the last hundred years. The notebook that Lacus sites as proof is also questionable, considering that it wasn't authored by Gil. And that while it said there would be un-needed people in the Destiny Plan, it said nothing about killing unneeded people off, and Mars (which is proof that the Destiny Plan works to prevent wars to prevent wars) has seen disaffected members peacefully leave without incident. |
2008-01-17, 17:59 | Link #90 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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And as was kept saying, plausible deniability wasn't as important as killing the objective. That is because the suspect list was too short to be of any use; Gilbert is the prime suspect and no one else if it fails, so sending anything but the best is asking for trouble. He never intended to face Lacus face to face, that would already be too late. (And did you simultaneously suggest that the personnel sent was horrible and that equipment was too good as both being evidence that Gilbert didn't do it? As Anh_Minh pointed out, the MS used was a last-resort. The intention was to kill Lacus on foot, and the MS used were only for infiltration.) Saying that another faction other than Gilbert is trying to Kill Lacus is all well and good, but such a faction simply doesn't exist.
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Last edited by Vallen Chaos Valiant; 2008-01-17 at 18:10. |
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2008-01-17, 18:19 | Link #92 | |
Logician and Romantic
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Many aspects of Destiny's presentation was sloppy, but that doesn't get Gilbert off the hook.
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2008-01-17, 18:28 | Link #93 | |||
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Besides, there were other MS they could have used. ZAFT has super-secret submarines, they have much older amphibious MS that could just as easily blow up a stationary building, and if a bunch of coordinator brats can get an armed MS into the Atlantic Federation's Atlantic Seaboard in Ashtray, then ZAFT could get pre-established amphibious MS into Orb. Quote:
We have people who are supposed to be highly trained, elite coordinators... except that they get overpowered by a cripple and a natural. They can't shoot a single person, and yet drop like flies when (space navy) Captain Ramius starts pulling acrobatics and shooting with a mere pistol, all despite their body armor. One man, in prime of his life, is outmuscled by a cripple who walks with a cane. These people can not be logically considered coordinators by any judgement, and if they aren't coordinators they aren't automatically from PLANT, ie Gilbert. Then we have the open display of the newest, inarguably, utterly genuine ZAFT machine (tm). On an island the size of Rhode Island, with the best military defense system on Earth with lavish spending on advanced tech of every kind, with a major naval presence, an establishment that is almost guaranteed to be able to spot these machines. A clue that conspicuous is the textbook example of a Red Herring. And when we have a nation like ZAFT, rife with gundam-jacks and stolen MS, getting an MS is less a matter of "how" and more a matter of "how much." Coordinator comandoes who don't display any coordinator abilities or competance on the assault. Blatantly new and advanced MS that no one could expect to be sent by any other source (since the people who know LOGOS are basically the ones who are already members). The two bases of Lacus's accusation of Dullindal being the perpetrator, but each base is extremely shaky. |
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2008-01-17, 18:31 | Link #94 | |
Inglourious Buster
Join Date: Dec 2007
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2008-01-17, 18:38 | Link #95 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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(There also was, as we kept saying, no need to keep the death a secret at all, if ORB people did it.) Oh, and the LOGOS membership came after their alliance with EA. When that happened, it becomes a bigger priority to remove Gilbert than it would be to kill Lacus. They would have preferred exposing Gilbert's lies with Meer instead.
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2008-01-17, 18:54 | Link #96 | |||
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Sure there was. Assassinations, especially of extremely popular international figures, aren't something you ever want to be associated with. Hence the half-assed attempt at a covert operation with obvious clues as to who was allegedly behind it. At the very least, openly killing a PLANT/ZAFT citizen held in high esteem by much of the populace would create a major diplomatic crisis between ZAFT and Orb, and be extremly unpopular with Orb's own signficant coordinator population. And obvious coverups would only make things worse, just look at what happened when Syria got caught with its hand in the political assassination jar. When has it ever been good for a nation to openly kill a foreign politician for domestic partisian advantage? Quote:
Where does it say that LOGOS membership came after the Orb-EA alliance? I distinctly don't remember it in the anime. And again, what lies of Gilbert? Meer spent most of the series going "I hope for a peaceful end to the conflict" and "fight for peace, brave troops!" while shaking her can-cans to JPOP. The Destiny Plan promised one thing: and end to all wars. And Mars in CE is proof that the Destiny Plan would work. Gilbert said that LOGOS was a threat to humanity. And LOGOS starts off the war with a nuclear attack, and is shown throughout the series to be the force behind the scenes pushing for conflict. Gilbert even offers a choice to whether to accept the Destiny Plan or not, and as soon as only the Kingdom of Scandinavia rejects it Cagelli declares war and attacks. |
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2008-01-17, 19:27 | Link #99 | |
Has a life IRL
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Somewhere in the Anglo-Saxon Sphere
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And you still haven't explained how Dullindal was a liar. |
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2008-01-17, 19:36 | Link #100 | |
Logician and Romantic
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Within my mind
Age: 43
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How about staging the Destroy battle to the public so that Archangel's involvement was edited out? And of course, the entire business with Meer.... But you don't seem to think that is a lie at all.
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