Code Geass R2 - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[Ascaloth]

Originally Posted by workingclass

this may be a stupid question or maybe not and or it may have already been asked or answered in long time past. but why is jeremiah called orange?

Season 1.

That's all the answer I'm gonna give you, and honestly, all the answer you'll need.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by workingclass

this may be a stupid question or maybe not and or it may have already been asked or answered in long time past. but why is jeremiah called orange?

In Episode 4 during the Suzaku rescue he told Jeremiah that he would announce a project called "Orange". Ever since then Jeremiah was disgraced inside the Britannian military being nicknamed "Orange". After Kallen defeated him in Episode 10, they threw in things to keep up the joke, such as Schneizel running tests on him in what looks like "orange juice" or his new knightmare in the finale was orange. Now his new mask is Orange.

Originally Posted by Uchiha_Hai

Lol? What epi and scene was this?

Episode 12

[Var]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

If it were on purpose, then one illegal move is no more blatant than another one. Let's just say that I'll be horribly surprised if the scene was kept the same for the DVD release.

Lelouch is supposed to be a clever boy; he should have been able to humiliate Schneizel for doing something so foolish. Heck, never mind Lelouch, I could humiliate someone like that:
"Oh my prince, you must not be all that familiar with chess. You can't make a move like that - you're never allowed to move your king adjacent to mine. Here, I'll move your king back... Now, why don't you make a better move this time?"

Lelouch running away like he'd been outplayed just doesn't make any sense.

I'm confused, a move done on purpose against the rules is a blatant attack on the other person. In Chess its like slapping your opponent across the face and then spitting on the board. You're insulting the game, blatantly, by purposefully moving illegally with intent to piss off your opponent. Chess buffs respect the game and disrespecting the game is the same as disrespecting the player. Its akin to insulting football (soccer) in Europe during a match, while in the stadium. While much bloodier, the end result is the same. You piss off the players, the fans, and everyone else who gets involved in the ensuing riot.

Lelouch has no way of really insulting Schneizel. The move was done on purpose, everyone in the crowd probably realized it was an illegal move. If Lelouch takes the win, he plays like his father. If he calls Schneizel out he wins the game (or gains a severe advantage from the penalty(likely drawing still, due to threefold repition)). If he doesn't take the win, he doesn't win. No matter the choice made, Schneizel wins his point in playing the game. I'm certain Lelouch realized the fact.

So him making some petty comment and moving the king back wouldn't do anything. There's no guarantee that Schneizel wouldn't just move his king back. No matter Lelouch's action, he can't stop Schneizel from repeating the move. And even if he doesn't Schneizel still wins his psychoanalysis of Zero and the game ends on a draw again anyway due to Threefold Repitition which they even remarked was about to occur.

[Schneizel]

If he calls Schneizel out he wins the game (or gains a severe advantage from the penalty(likely drawing still, due to threefold repition))

If he calls Schneizel out, he looks like a hypocrite, because when you compare it to a battlefield, its like he'd be telling him, "You're not following the rules of war" and [whatever], and saying this from the perspective of Zero, a terrorist, is... well...

[Lowell1025]

Originally Posted by kodachrome

If he calls Schneizel out, he looks like a hypocrite, because when you compare it to a battlefield, its like he'd be telling him, "You're not following the rules of war" and [whatever], and saying this from the perspective of Zero, a terrorist, is... well...

Well there's enough of other things that are. It's not like this you describe would be the only few out there so I don't see they intentionally avoid this . Besides, I don't think the creators even considered this when they created the we see

PS if you are about what I am trying to say please don't ask me...I am also ing

[ZeroSama]

Then Schenziel is being a hypocrite for saying that he warned Zero not to go to the wedding if there are no rules. Serves him right to see his scheme take a kick in the dick

[Schneizel]

Since their "chess game" is the same thing as the wedding, amirite? (Uh, lol.) And Schneizel clearly meant that it was a "rule" that Zero shouldn't come, amirite? (...Uh, srsly, lol.)

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Well I'm back. Let's resume this.

First off, how does Lelouch suggesting that Schneizel need not necessarily throw the game because of his mistake equate "pathetic pleading and whining"? Lelouch could very well say "Oh my Lord, it's just a friendly game, there's no need to forfeit just because of a little mistake" with all of the panache of Yagami Light going "sorewa....Kira dakara" on Misora, and he'd be right. Not only that, he'll make Schneizel look like a sore "stalemate-r" on top of looking like a beginner, effectively returning the insult even as he stewed inwardly over it. Is it entirely impossible to make this scene just as dramatic, if not more, than the original?

Except that they all knew Schneizel did it on purpose, as anyone could have seen, and any acting skills Lelouch may have dispelled couldn't have covered what was already blatantly obvious to everyone and would have come off as simple begging in order to save face by him, a manuever not guranteed to work because Schneizel could easily brush it aside since he fully did not care whether he lost the game or not so long as he scored the point in the psychological battle.

As it is, the fact that Lelouch had to answer an illegal move with an illegal move of his own...you know, that sounds pretty damned sad to me as it is, especially when it's symbolic of him hiding behind his men when the going gets tough. What backbone? How is informing an apparently none-the-wiser Prince of the rules of the game more wussy than playing his game and backing off, at least on the surface?

Because the Prince is the wiser because once again the move was deliberate on his part, so informing him of something everyone already knew he knew would have come off as weak and childish, and from Lelouch's standpoint the move was built to continue the game from his perspective, meaning he wasn't running away from the challenge but answering and prolonging it, which showed definite backbone versus taking the easy win or way out. Losing the battle in order to win the war from his perspective I guess you can say and that takes guts, except he wasn't able to forsee Schneizel turning even that manuver against him and coming off as the 'winner' either way. Really, do you honestly think something like this would have managed to carry the same amount of dramatic implication as the original? If you really think there was an alternative that could have done the job just as well then come up with one already, versus suggesting a rather dull lecture nobody would by and would basically have no meaning behind it because no matter what Schneizel was in control of the whole scene... and fit within that context then the originial fits the criteria better then this rather lackluster argument you're putting out...<_<

You're taking this as if Sunrise couldn't do the same themes any better. I'm not convinced yet.

From the context of the scene that was given, I find it hard to imagine, but since this is your argument I think it falls on you to prove that there was a better alternative, which I will note you have yet to really do right now.

[Anh_Minh]

Question: what if Lelouch had answered with an illegal move of his own, to wit, advancing a pawn? What would the effect of that be?

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Question: what if Lelouch had answered with an illegal move of his own, to wit, advancing a pawn? What would the effect of that be?

Uhhmmm his king was in check correct? That would have resulted in him losing the game I believe... and technically he should have taken Schneizel's king instead of continuing the game, so in a sense what he did was illegal under normal circumstances as well... <_<

[Dann of Thursday]

I thought it was that Lelouch would have won. The reason he didn't take it was because it would mean going along with Schneizal's manipulations and will. Lelouch will not allow himself to be played like that.

[Anh_Minh]

I didn't mean on the "normal chess" side. I mean in the "mind games and theatrics" side.

[Schneizel]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Question: what if Lelouch had answered with an illegal move of his own, to wit, advancing a pawn? What would the effect of that be?

That he sends his zergs to do stuff, I guess?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Well I'm back. Let's resume this.

First off, how does Lelouch suggesting that Schneizel need not necessarily throw the game because of his mistake equate "pathetic pleading and whining"? Lelouch could very well say "Oh my Lord, it's just a friendly game, there's no need to forfeit just because of a little mistake" with all of the panache of Yagami Light going "sorewa....Kira dakara" on Misora, and he'd be right. Not only that, he'll make Schneizel look like a sore "stalemate-r" on top of looking like a beginner, effectively returning the insult even as he stewed inwardly over it. Is it entirely impossible to make this scene just as dramatic, if not more, than the original?

As it is, the fact that Lelouch had to answer an illegal move with an illegal move of his own...you know, that sounds pretty damned sad to me as it is, especially when it's symbolic of him hiding behind his men when the going gets tough. What backbone? How is informing an apparently none-the-wiser Prince of the rules of the game more wussy than playing his game and backing off, at least on the surface?

You're taking this as if Sunrise couldn't do the same themes any better. I'm not convinced yet.

There's always a situation where somebody could have done something better. Doesn't mean it wasn't done well initially, just that there's room for improvement.

Anyway as a general to everybody, I put in a "Games & Symbolism" thread request. Please support it if you'd like this type of discussion to have a home, but not to dominate any particular episode thread in the future.

Also I'm starting to wonder if the chess game wasn't portrayed in such a loose manner that can be interpreted so many ways on purpose to further discussion and draw attention to the show a little. People have to admit, it wouldn't have been nearly as interesting if they had had the perfect by the rules chess game without anything going on between the lines of the dialogue and the maneuevers made. Anyone can go out and play chess, few can have the special fraternal battle of wits Schneizel and Lelouch had.

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

Schneizel doesn't necessarily have to be disqualified. Lelouch can always call him out, and as per 4Tran's example, move the White King back to its original position for Schneizel.

Remember the threefold repetition situation though. Basically everything is covered so that they can have this little duel or call it a draw....which strangely enough thanks to Nina's intervention ended up being the case.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I didn't mean on the "normal chess" side. I mean in the "mind games and theatrics" side.

I'm confused on how moving a pawn would have contributed to that particular aspect... >_>

[Dream_Traveller]

In regards to the pawn, that might have been putting the pawn in the role of the 'subject', following the moving/just-moved king- obviously playing off Lelouch's infamous line.

[Reckoner]

Why is there so much analyzing going on about a little game of chess? You guys are making it too complicated. I would be impressed if the creators put as much thought into that scene as you guys are making it to seem.

It really is simple, Lelouch got tested and he didn't play into it. What else is there to say about it really?...

[Lowell1025]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Remember the threefold repetition situation though. Basically everything is covered so that they can have this little duel or call it a draw....which strangely enough thanks to Nina's intervention ended up being the case.

If Nina hadn't intervened and Schienzel advance his king and take the pawn-which puts Lelouch at check again - then it would be a whole different story.

Anyone else thinks Nina got dragged in this episode mostly for this effect?

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Why is there so much analyzing going on about a little game of chess? You guys are making it too complicated. I would be impressed if the creators put as much thought into that scene as you guys are making it to seem.

It really is simple, Lelouch got tested and he didn't play into it. What else is there to say about it really?...

Although my reason is different but I have pleaded couple of times to drop it also...but failed.

If you can't beat'em, join them

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

I'm confused on how moving a pawn would have contributed to that particular aspect... >_>

It's not so much the pawn as the fact it was a move that would have let Lelouch's king in check.

It wouldn't have been backing down (which is what Lelouch did), and it wouldn't have been claiming victory (what Charles would have done, but that Lelouch's pride didn't let him do), and it wouldn't have been rejecting the move (which would have sounded whiny and been another form of backing down).

In a way, it would have been a reversal of Schneizel's ploy, as well as a statement Zero wasn't afraid of a game of chicken. Good.

OTOH, it would have let Schneizel define the rules, and Zero obediently playing by them. Bad.

[Schneizel]

You mean if Lelouch had moved it 1 square forward?
Oic. I thought you meant move it diagnol to attack.
Well, you answered that yourself (Zero follows his lead).