2011-05-14, 09:53 | Link #22781 | |
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However what I get from Umineko and especially EP8 is that every theory is good as long as it doesn't defy a specified rule, no matter how much lame it is. I don't like this approach at all, but in my opinion this is exactly what ryuukishi thinks, as shown before with the cheese riddle in EP6, where the "smartest" solution wasn't the one intended by the quiz itself. Chronotrig has been stating this for a long while. I really don't like this approach, but I must recognize this is considered "fair game" in Umineko.
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2011-05-14, 11:40 | Link #22782 |
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Since the essence of a mystery or a riddle is for you to "have fun while trying to reason it out", that is pretty fair actually. It's closer to removing pretences then anything to me.
The arc 7 Will intro also a pretty good "hint" of that. We're seeing someone pretty clearly doing that. In Umineko's case however it feels like understanding the intents of the writer(s) is more important then even reaching an answer at all. There really isn't any need to think out Bern's game further then that, I believe. Actually I don't think there's any specific description of their clothes within the story (outside magical beings and Kinzo I think). Unless we assume the message bottles came with as many images as the VN did... |
2011-05-14, 13:25 | Link #22783 |
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Not to mention Battler saying: ''I bet Erika's logic would have defied the rules and made someone else be the culprit, that's the kind of argument I want to hear!'' at the table with Bernkastel after the riddle.
He didn't say EXACTLY what I quoted, but he said something pretty much like that. But as for Bernkastel's red truth, yeah, I totally missed that it was said before Kanon's death, I feel like a total idiot now. |
2011-05-14, 13:35 | Link #22784 | |
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In any case, Battler tries this for the first four episodes ("Secret passages! Person X! Trap X! Simultaneous murder! Small bombs!") and only progresses to understand everything after he realises this attitude is stupid and useless. I think that's part of the epiphany he has at the end of ep5 ("The author wants me to solve this puzzle, therefore I should be working with what they've written rather than fighting against them by finding every little loophole"). |
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2011-05-14, 13:46 | Link #22785 | |
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I got the full quote: Beatrice:''Come on now, this is Erika we're talking about. She'll probably pull out some twisted logic and say that it was possible for someone other than Battler's family.'' Battler:''Good point. in fact, I'd like to hear her proud, twisted logic even more than the right answer.'' Come on, was Ryu really not giving us a hint to try and think outside the box?(pun not intended). Will was probably talking about the author of the detective story he was in at the time when he talked about them heartlessly making the servants into the culprit. |
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2011-05-14, 14:54 | Link #22786 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-05-14, 14:58 | Link #22787 | |
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And on the concept of Battler's Anti-Fantasy style arguments with Beatrice, those are completely justified. Beatrice did not teach him how to fight, other than indirectly giving him hints because she could not outright express her love. Since it has never been stated that the tales followed mystery's rule, they could have been any genre at that point, and if they were based on real life, there could be millions of secret passages in a rich guy's house, who is leading a double life. Plus, Battler was pressured with the ''how dunnit'', this game is much simpler, merely the ''whodunnit''. If all Battler had to figure out was the ''whodunnit'' and didn't have to explain every bit and trick, he would have kicked Beatrice's ass faster. |
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2011-05-14, 15:07 | Link #22788 |
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I think all of this is the same.
Battler figured out the 3 answer instantly but rejected it because it didn't satisfy him. It lead him to the 1 answer. Will rejected the story showing the maid as the culprit being the truth because it didn't satisfy him. Using his own logic he came to a conclusion that satisfied him. Ange rejected the truth shown to her in early arc 8 because it didn't satisfy her (as well as the arc 7 tea party). Erika's greatest pleasure is in defeating the mind of others. She certain won't be satisfied by an answer given so easily. She's looking for a truth that can satisfy her sense of superiority. Many fans rejects many solutions because it doesn't satisfy us. "The truth" doesn't matter, nor how "realistic" or how much "twisted or not" it is. It's just looking for what satisfy each of us. The various meta world theories shows that pretty well I think. |
2011-05-14, 18:33 | Link #22790 | |
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2011-05-14, 19:17 | Link #22791 | |
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I mean you seem to imply it has never been done before. Edit: Right now I'd have to assume what you find wrong with it and create counter arguments for these assumption. Since I don't get what's wrong myself, I'd rather let you explain it. |
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2011-05-14, 19:32 | Link #22792 | |
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''Come on, do you really think they would present an exploitable loophole, and then call it out after the right answer was explained and use ''it was Erika's bullet to use in a fight'' as an excuse to cover that up? This is clearly intentional!'' I think. |
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2011-05-15, 08:15 | Link #22793 | |
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In the first place the cheese solution was exploiting the "rule" that the cheese can't break (which would in reality) In addition saying that a thin slice of cheese can qualify as a big cheese, as it was clearly specified in the explanation, is as smartass as to claim that a rhino can be a house pet. So no, in my opinion the two situations are absolutely comparable.
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2011-05-15, 12:10 | Link #22795 | ||
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Besides trying to use real life logic inside Bern's game is stupid since the situation itself is absolutely unrealistic.
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2011-05-15, 12:27 | Link #22796 | |
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The message was so standalone that it seemed to me like complaining about Ryuukishi's use of such a scene. It'd be great if you could upload a video of this on youtube. |
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2011-05-15, 15:02 | Link #22797 | |||
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2011-05-15, 17:56 | Link #22798 | |
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On the cheese topic, I've tried folding cheese before, it breaks apart before I can fold it, must be a special kind of cheese. Also, I don't think Erika's logic goes against anything really. It was clearly intended as well. |
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2011-05-15, 18:26 | Link #22799 | |
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Isn't it more that with the cheese puzzle, it said the word 'cheese' but it failed to bind the limits of the problem in order for it to have one solution.
Whereas with Bernkastel's puzzle, it's implied that the scenario is complete and should be limited to what was shown to have that one solution, but you can expand on the scenario to come up with more solutions, which isn't really the way the puzzle should be looked at. If we were to look back at the cheese solution, that would be like using a laser knife to cut the cheese which is *technically* a knife, but not the one the puzzle really meant when it said 'knife.' Like that? Quote:
Sorta like if you make it more like an S on the table and cut straight down with the cheese standing like an S onto the table. Maybe that will work. 8) |
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2011-05-15, 18:38 | Link #22800 |
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That actually might work.
However, I have a question for you all: If a piece is only capable of doing what it's master is capable of doing..... How did Bernkastel make this loophole, yet Erika was the one who pointed it out? Why did Battler and Beatrice forshadow it? Then again now that I think about it you could argue she left Bernkastels care after becoming a witch.....but why then does she still have authority? Her approval was needed for her resurrection so she's clearly still her piece. Bernkastel must have done it on purpose like Lyrical Aura suggested in the previous page. |
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