Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Episode 7 Discussion / Poll

[Jan-Poo]

Wait it was never said that Rosa was beaten as a child. It is said that she has been bullied by her siblings, but details were never disclosed, so you could think it was merely a psychological and verbal bullying. Even if they beat her, which I think it's unlikely, nothing has been said about physical discipline imparted by Kinzo or his wife.

However by that I don't mean to change your conclusion, because I believe that psychological abuse can be worse than physical abuse for a child's mind.

As for physical punishment as form of education, I don't mean to start a discussion about that, but regardless of that, what Rosa does is not meant to have an educational purpose, Rosa never hits Maria with a conscious mind, only when she gets so angry that she loses control over her own actions.

This has nothing to do with education. An action itself has no meaning. The meaning behind an action is what you convey with that action. When Maria gets hit she doesn't receive any message except: "mama is pissed of on me". Maria doesn't recognizes it as a punishment imparted from an strict authority, she recognizes it as what it actually is: the outburst of anger of her mother, which she visualizes as an evil witch taking control of Rosa. This has no educational effect whatsoever.

Anyway Saying that Rosa doesn't really feel any guilt afterward is an outright lie. Why would she fake that? Rosa does feel guilty, she knows she is a "bad mama", she understands that. But she can't help it. She can't control her anger, she can't control her ambivalent feelings toward Maria. Rosa needs help, and yet she is unable to search for any.

[Kitsu]

nothing has been said about physical discipline imparted by Kinzo or his wife

Wrong, it was said that even after they grew up (as adults) they get slapped by Kinzo if they for example don't sit straight. Also it was said that Kinzo even beat Jessica (or one of the adults, but I think it was Jessica) with a wooden sword or so...I think in EP 1 or so...

[Jan-Poo]

Uhm... That's right. However it wasn't ever said about Rosa. At any rate, Rosa never ever remember that as a traumatic experience, on the contrary, the bullying of her brothers is still on her mind. Even if she was beaten by Kinzo that doesn't seem to have left any significant mark on her, and anyway since Rudolf, Krauss and Eva do not show any violence toward their sons, I don't think Kinzo's physical punishment was that harsh.

[June 1983]

^Yup, exactly ... I can't remember if it was EP 1 or EP 2 but Jessica definitely states that her grandfather tried to beat her with a wooden sword or a cane, and it was implied that was the way he raised his kids, too.

edit: And of course I can't go into detail here, but I think it's very safe to say that generational abuse is an important overarching theme in Umineko.

[Ithekro]

Just because she doesn't think it left a mark on her, it might just be considered normal child raising to Rosa. In the "This is how things are done" sort of way based on tradition. "It was how I was raised, so that's how I'm going to raise my kid" sort of logic.

[Leo_Otaku]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Wait it was never said that Rosa was beaten as a child. It is said that she has been bullied by her siblings, but details were never disclosed, so you could think it was merely a psychological and verbal bullying.

I agree with my friend when she says Rudolf looks like a wife beater lol.

[Jan-Poo]

Ahahaha! I can't really imagine Rudolf beating Kyrie, I think the opposite is more likely to happen. XD

Dunno about Asumu, but I can be pretty sure if Battler were to know Rudolf did such a thing he would beat him into a pulp.

[June 1983]

LOL! I was actually going to say that, despite their many flaws, you have to commend Rudolf and Eva, because it doesn't seem to me like they physically punished their kids, though of course we can't know. (Krauss, I'm not so sure. I like Krauss, but he's kind of a jerk.)

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Leo_Otaku

I agree with my friend when she says Rudolf looks like a wife beater lol.

Naah XD Rudolf strikes me as one of those types that respect women. As Jan Poo said, Kyrie is implied to have a very tight leash around Rudolf, since he's known to be a philanderer.

And June 1983 is right - Eva adores her son and husband above all else. That's why she's so overprotective of him and doesn't want him marrying Shannon.

[Proto]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

so you could think it was merely a psychological and verbal bullying.

You might want to change your choice of words, but whatever.

[tcaz2]

Aren't you guys getting really close to talking about stuff that hasn't happened yet?

[June 1983]

Not really ... ? I don't think so? I'll edit my post just to make sure.

[orion]

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Aren't you guys getting really close to talking about stuff that hasn't happened yet?

Past it a while ago imo.

It's still no excuse for Rose abusing Maria imo

[Marion]

Originally Posted by June 1983

Does not compute!!!

:awesome: Drats my plan ruined!

What I mean is he respects women to get them in bed :v -shot-

[k//eternal]

Now, now... it all makes sense if you change "respects women" to "loves women"

[orion]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

Now, now... it all makes sense if you change "respects women" to "loves women"

Love has nothing to do with it.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Proto

You might want to change your choice of words, but whatever.

If you thought that by saying so I meant to minimize such a thing, you should have read further when I said:

I believe that psychological abuse can be worse than physical abuse for a child's mind.

Originally Posted by tcaz2

Aren't you guys getting really close to talking about stuff that hasn't happened yet?

Quite on a dangerous boundary, that Kinzo's sword thing I'm not even sure when that was said, however regardless that is a minor particular that the anime will never tell.

Anyway to go back on topic. Whatever is the degree of physical punishment that Rosa may have experienced as a child I don't think it was on the level of what Rosa gives to her child. Seeing as how Jessica, Battler and George reacted to that sad show in the rose garden, I don't think that they have experienced such a thing themselves, not to such extent. Not even Jessica that yet she always lived in the same house with Kinzo. That "sword" thing that was mentioned from the way it was told it looked more like an isolated case.

Now, thinking about that, I wonder if George's reaction of acceptance wasn't just because he is a very comprehensive person °°;
Well I reaally doubt that Eva abused him that much, but maybe a small degree of physical punishment might have been part of her education program.

[FireChick]

By the way, I noticed something else while watching this episode...did Rosa's hair get shorter? I thought it was kinda longer in the first episode.

[Proto]

I believe that psychological abuse can be worse than physical abuse for a child's mind.

What I meant was for coherence purposes, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Well I reaally doubt that Eva abused him that much, but maybe a small degree of physical punishment might have been part of her education program.

It is the 80's, with kids raised inn the 70's. Some measure of physical punishment (albeit, minor in most cases) was in the menu of almost any parent raising program. Heck, even in our generation, the 80-90 one that holds true. However, as you say Rosa-Maria case is bordering on a pathological one. Maybe it's a critic from R07 to the Japanese society that tends to turn a blind eye to any psychological issue?

[porchoky]

I don't think it's fair to compare Rosa to the other adults when she has a kid like Maria. George is a perfect kid, Jessica and Battler aren't as perfect but still pretty normal. Then you have Maria with ther -uuu -uuu and intense interest in magic. Even Battler smacks Maria around a few times when he gets annoyed at her attitude. Add that to being the youngest child and all, I wouldn't blame Rosa that much.
I'm not saying that it's excusable for Rosa to beat Maria, just that it's.... more excusable.