2010-10-24, 18:59 | Link #201 |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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this is A Good Post and you should listen to this man
furthermore, seeing the honorifics debate pop up in every single anime forum twice a week or so is starting to get REALLY REALLY OLD, so if all the weeaboo apologists could just shut up, realize it's not 1995 anymore and go back to their parents' basements it would really do the internet as a whole a service. thanks in advance for your understanding and cooperation. doing this (subbing bad shows) is also a common mistake
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2010-10-25, 09:09 | Link #202 |
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Sure is rage around here.
I'm neither here nor there, as I'm fine with either no honorifics (preferably through some kind of adaptation if the situation requires it rather than just ignoring them completely) or all honorifics, though my preference is, generally, honorifics only after proper names, because stuff like "butler-kun" and "rabbit-san" is pretty retarded. Reason is, I think honorifics always carry a certain meaning, even if small, and I prefer to keep meaning as intact as possible, just not going into retarded territory like leaving certain words untranslated because the English equivalent doesn't perfectly, completely convey the whole meaning of the original word (lol nakama). But even there I'd make exceptions with stuff like food names and who knows what else that might come up. But yeah, that's all my personal preference and which I don't even care much about since I can still hear what the characters say anyway. Inconsistent? Yeah, sure is. But compared to actual relevant matters like translation accuracy, it's so meaningless that it purely comes down to personal preference. Just like you saying we're not automatic translators, I say we're also not machines with perfectly logical and consistent preferences - I personally think moderation is the way to go for everything, and it can be applied here too. The only problem is those who make such a huge deal out of the stuff... from both sides. tl;dr: just be happy with what you get and stop bawwwing so much about nohonorofics/yeshonorifics/whatever the hell have you Last edited by PositronCannon; 2010-10-25 at 09:30. |
2010-10-25, 09:58 | Link #203 | |
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A strict "localize everything" approach already fails for one simple reason: You're trying to let characters from one cultural circle speak as if they were part of another one. In JP, calling each other with the last name is perfectly fine and normal, while it would usually be either strangely distanced (with "Mr.") or unusual or even slightly derogatory in English (without extra). No good option. You could try to handle this by switching to the first name, too, but then we'd run into the second problem, and that is - in my opinion - the most important reason against rigid localization: What you hear is what you should read. So, switching first and last names for proper localization is a no-go. Sometimes it would even lead to followup problems: In Kiminozo, for example, there is one scene where Mitsuki blows a gasket when Shinji changes from "Hayase" (last name) to "Mitsuki" (first name) - if you had switched the names before, you couldn't even explain this development without TLnote. Likewise, I find it annoying to consistently hear "oniichan" and reading the first name instead. "Brother" might work for someone like Akiha addressing Tohno as "oniisama" in Tsukihime, but please not for "oniisan" or any cutesy form of it. When people are addressed as "senpai", it would get even worse. Or how would you call a Yakuza boss, if not "-kumicho"? Here, it's usually much less irritating to simply stick with the original. In the end, the context decides. In "distant-type" relationships especially with western or military background, dropping the honorifics is usually the way to go. For "close-type" relationships with a clear Japanese background, keeping them is usually better, especially in "ancient" japanese shows where the various honorifics are important to correctly judge differences in status between characters. So, instead of taking the purist "KEEP ALL HONORIFICS" or "GOD, DROP THEM ALL" extreme positions, why not simply take a middle-of-the-road approach and decide on a case-by-case basis? And drop what can easily be replaced, yet keep what can't? |
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2010-10-25, 11:06 | Link #205 | |
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Yes, because as we all know, "bad" is totally objective, and if you don't like a show, there's not even the slightest chance of anyone else liking it.
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2010-10-25, 11:30 | Link #207 |
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This is a slippery slope approach. I could just as well argue that, since you don't care if the subtitles match the spoken dialogue, the subtitles don't have to have any relevancy to the show, and you might as well pull a Robotech. There's a reason people don't like it when you change names of characters [Shinichi = Jimmy] or when you change rice balls to doughnuts, though, because they expect subtitles to be understandable yet accurate to what they're watching. Then again, it's entirely up to you how you want to translate something, since this is all about opinions. Most translations pick and choose how they localize. If you don't like honorifics, that's up to you.
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2010-10-25, 12:09 | Link #208 |
uwu
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Why do people interpret "remove honorifics" and "make subs English" to mean "4kids" and "Robotech"? Those are not remotely comparable.
The "what you hear" argument is pathetic because it's a placebo. People use honorifics as a safety net. If what they hear is in the sub, then the sub must be good because they don't know Japanese and are completely clueless otherwise. There could be genuine errors littered throughout the script and they wouldn't care because ignorance is bliss. Take wasei-eigo, in example. Leaving what you hear is more than likely going to be inaccurate. Last edited by Schneizel; 2010-10-25 at 12:26. |
2010-10-25, 12:34 | Link #209 | |
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Not really. In a business context, last name with no honorific is mildly derogatory (it evokes the image of a boss talking to an underling), but in other contexts it can be neutral (you know eight people named Matt and it's too confusing to not call them by their last names), or even used as an endearing nickname. |
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2010-10-25, 12:54 | Link #211 | ||
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There is one important difference between other parts of keigo and names/address terms though. English, like most if not all languages, has its own way of expressing things in various degrees of politeness...e.g. "Sit down!" vs. "Have a seat" vs. "Please take a seat." On the other hand, the use (or lack there-of) of honourifics really may not have an appropriate translation in certain situations, as others have already noted.
But I don't think there's an easy solution to that, because there are occasions that call for complete localisation (Victorian Romance Emma is a good example) and others where too much would be lost if you localise. A lot of Japanese names actually sound very strange to me when the order is reversed. Hence, I completely agree with Mentar here: Quote:
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But I'd say that wasei-eigo is similar to levels of politeness in that there's usually a way to express it in other languages. Can't always say the same for names/address terms. --------- But there's one other thing that most people seem to ignore when arguing/discussing translation. Here's a piece of advice I got from a professional translator in Japan: the language and terms you use in your translation should also depend on who your audience is. For instance, if you're speaking at a teacher's conference in Japan, you could probably use MEXT/"Monkashou"...but if you're speaking to the general populace, you might want to use the full terms at least once. And of course, it also depends on the form of the finished product. If you're translating a novel for a Western audience that knows very little about the original culture, then it would probably be easiest to localise. And dubs might as well completely localise everything, including names: I personally can't stand Japanese names spoken in a foreign accent. *shrugs*
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Last edited by karice67; 2010-10-25 at 13:16. |
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2010-10-25, 13:00 | Link #212 | ||
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Look, I don't care at all about the silly translation ego trip. But to my ears, Miyauchi-kumichou is not "Mr. Miyauchi", oniisama isn't "bro", and Yamamoto-senpai isn't "Upperclassman Yamamoto". Thank you, as someone who is interested in the Japanese culture, I feel able to learn the special meanings of concepts like senpai/kouhai, or the implications of calling someone Hayase, Hayase-san or Mitsuki. Unless know-it-all-better translators protect me from all this and try to force localizations for things which can NOT be localized without at least loss of nuance. And no, before a second straw man is set ablaze, I'm not for keeping all honorifics. Localize what's possible without problems, but keep what can't be. And yes, when people yell a name in Japanese, it's definitely good for immersion not to read something entirely different in the subs. |
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2010-10-25, 13:05 | Link #213 | |
uwu
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Thanks for thinking I was talking directly to you. Great job! |
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2010-10-25, 13:23 | Link #214 |
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If we're talking about Yakuza bosses here, why wouldn't just "Boss Miyauchi" work? Seems like a simple enough case for me.
Also, in the end it shouldn't really matter how the translator decides to translate a particular honorific, because if you know what the honorifics mean, you can always pick them up from the audio and bypass the translation for that particular thing entirely if you wish to do so.
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2010-10-25, 15:39 | Link #216 | |||||
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Then again, seeing as how a lot of fansub translators have taken Japanese in college for a few years before sort of kind of hacking something up with help from the closed captions, subs in other languages and wild-ass guessing, they probably don't really get any of the nuances either. So maybe we should just keep honorifics and leave everyone more or less equally in the dark. Ignorance is, after all, bliss.
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Last edited by TheFluff; 2010-10-25 at 16:38. |
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2010-10-25, 16:47 | Link #217 |
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I think some of you need to read this article on why honorifics always need to be left in. The guy has given this a lot of thought and he has done a thorough job going through the various strawman arguments.
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2010-10-25, 19:22 | Link #218 | |||
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*reminding myself that I'm still twice Fluffy's age and reading on* Quote:
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Now each group can define on their own which path to take, more power to you. But this "We know better and we are right, while you are not" kind of talk reminds me very much of religious extremist babble. It's an opinion, no more than that. There are other opinions which I consider perfectly valid, too. |
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2010-10-25, 23:26 | Link #219 | |||
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2010-10-25, 23:34 | Link #220 | ||
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