Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 25 [END] Discussion / Poll

[FuzzyWuzzy]

Can't believe this has a movie and code geass does not.
What a rip off.

[kakakka]

You can think of it as part of Gundam Anniversary

[nutype]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Can't believe this has a movie and code geass does not.
What a rip off.

im sure a CG movie is possible with it's massive fan base. Im guessing it would be a prequel though seeing how a certain major character doesn't exist anymore. I still think that was a pretty bad move at the end of CGR2.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Can't believe this has a movie and code geass does not.

Lets just say that a certain dreadful act committed in season II have pretty much prevented the continuation of the franchise. That is, unless they execute phoenix dawn.

- Tak

[Rising Dragon]

I think its actually because Gundam as a whole has a larger fanbase and a longer history than Code Geass, thus improving the chances for success for a movie.

[M_Flores]

I'm a bit late, but anyways.

Spoiler:

It was a good episode - but I didn't think it was a good ending. The fight was pretty full on, especially both units got trashed and even had to switch Gundams in the middle of the fight. But I didn't think it was a proper 'end', which is I guess appropriate since they're making the movie.

For me, the only person that got the satisfactory ending was Saji Crossroad. I hated him all season 1 and thought he was useless, until season 2, I actually started to like him. He got A LOT of development though, we saw him mature a lot throughout s2.

Setsuna however, he kept talking about how he'd change, he'd reform himself, but what happens in the end, he's still fighting. He's still in CB and still going to perform armed interventions. Not a fitting ending for him, since he's back to square one.

[CelestialNocturne]

Originally Posted by DV04

Yeah, it was, but they did it to save more screen time for the fight between Setsuna and Ribbons. If Halle/Alle managed to shoot down the Fangs then he would have been in the fight longer. Also, Arios' wings were gone so I guess we can say that the speed was reduced? They just wanted to give Lockon and Halle/Alle some praise for killing off Revive and Hilling.

Meh, in my opinion they should have given both Innovator kills (Hilling and Revive) to Halle/Alle. Lockon had already gotten to kill Ali and the Arche while Alle only got to pick off a Gaga battalion so for true redemption of the Arios (with regards to its lack of action), they should have then let it take down both suits. Then it'd be more reasonable to get taken out so easily by the Reborn's fangs as well, such being the result of having battled two suits prior.

[gaoyuanyuan1]

I just wonder why at the end of season 1 when setsunna got blasted away, it took him 4 years to get back to Celestial Being but at the end of season 2, he got back right away?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by gaoyuanyuan1

I just wonder why at the end of season 1 when setsunna got blasted away, it took him 4 years to get back to Celestial Being but at the end of season 2, he got back right away?

Because in season 1, He was in hiding because the world's governments are after him. While at the end of Season 2, The world's government is too busy witchhunting its own members to worry about CB.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by FuzzyWuzzy

Can't believe this has a movie and code geass does not.
What a rip off.

Don't worry given the sucess of Code Geass I am sure that Sunrise has something planned, the thing did sell millions of DVDs so I am sure that Sunrise will come up with something.

Let's just hope its an AU and not just some audience pleasing sequel that has Lelouch coming back to gain a harem.

[mechalord]

Code Geass R2 was rubish. Gundam 00 S2 was infinitely better.


As for Code Geass... a remake of R2 is a possibility, even a third season. Similar stuff has been done in the past. For goodness sake, FMA is back with a series that more closely resembles the manga.

We also have Tenchi Muyo with its alternate timelines.


R2 was just the most disappointing second season to any anime series that i've really liked. The first season of Code Geass was some of the best anime ever made. Freakin' awesome. Everything about R2 was annoying. It was an unsatisfying second season with an unsatisfying ending. The whole thing was a giant abyss, one humungous plot hole. It's the biggest "WTF."

[SonicX_Zero]

Originally Posted by mechalord

Code Geass R2 was rubish. Gundam 00 S2 was infinitely better.


As for Code Geass... a remake of R2 is a possibility, even a third season. Similar stuff has been done in the past. For goodness sake, FMA is back with a series that more closely resembles the manga.

We also have Tenchi Muyo with its alternate timelines.


R2 was just the most disappointing second season to any anime series that i've really liked. The first season of Code Geass was some of the best anime ever made. Freakin' awesome. Everything about R2 was annoying. It was an unsatisfying second season with an unsatisfying ending. The whole thing was a giant abyss, one humungous plot hole. It's the biggest "WTF."

Ohohoho opening a can of worms about disappointing 2nd seasons eh. Which is more of a train wreck R2 or 00? XD

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by SonicX_Zero

Ohohoho opening a can of worms about disappointing 2nd seasons eh. Which is more of a train wreck R2 or 00? XD

Neither. Both were pigeonholed into the label by haters and bandwagon jumpers with too much time on their hands. So many people fell into the trap too it was amazing.

[Charred Knight]

Originally Posted by SonicX_Zero

Ohohoho opening a can of worms about disappointing 2nd seasons eh. Which is more of a train wreck R2 or 00? XD

Let's be blunt, Gundam 00 has a few problems, and had a dissapointing ending. I do over react with my hatred of the season, I liked most of it I just hated the ending.

Code Geass R2 was a disaster of epic proportions. Its nonsensical from start to finish.

It's literally the equivalent to a car wreck that you can't look away from.

I mean the main character outfit for the last part of the series was an outfit that made him look like the freaking pope and he carried a sword that looked like a plastic toy. The ending makes no sense on any level. the Britannians are not going to stop being racist because Lelouch was a dick.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Neither. Both were pigeonholed into the label by haters and bandwagon jumpers with too much time on their hands. So many people fell into the trap too it was amazing.

Agreed.

R2 had its course diverted by the time slot change, which clearly saw a number of background threads dropped and not enough fleshing out done, but it stayed on track for what was surely its original intention: Lelouch restarting his rebellion, the Charles/Marianna conspiracy, the betrayal of the Black Knights once they learn that Lelouch was toying with them all the while, and Suzaku and Lelouch taking on the world in order to set up the Zero Requiem. Those were all events clearly set up even back in R1, and while it's certainly arguable that R2 fell short of its ambitions, it didn't derail by any extent.

00 S2 is even farther from derailment because there's no sign that the anime was anything but the story the director wanted. You may not like the story or the way he did it (stop-go character development gets me), but those are differences of form, not content. S2 had a clear track and it stuck to it: Celestial Being opposing the tyranical A-LAWS, restoring Aeolia's plan, and finding their own reasons for fighting beyond mere ideology.

While both series had their flaws, neither one of them saw their plot derail and crash against what it had always been setting up to be. An infamous example of plot derailment would be Gundam Seed Destiny, in which the good guys became bad without real buildup over the course of an episode, the new cast was supplanted by the old, and the entire ending came out of left field in reversing the main trends of the season.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Agreed.

R2 had its course diverted by the time slot change, which clearly saw a number of background threads dropped and not enough fleshing out done, but it stayed on track for what was surely its original intention: Lelouch restarting his rebellion, the Charles/Marianna conspiracy, the betrayal of the Black Knights once they learn that Lelouch was toying with them all the while, and Suzaku and Lelouch taking on the world in order to set up the Zero Requiem. Those were all events clearly set up even back in R1, and while it's certainly arguable that R2 fell short of its ambitions, it didn't derail by any extent.

00 S2 is even farther from derailment because there's no sign that the anime was anything but the story the director wanted. You may not like the story or the way he did it (stop-go character development gets me), but those are differences of form, not content. S2 had a clear track and it stuck to it: Celestial Being opposing the tyranical A-LAWS, restoring Aeolia's plan, and finding their own reasons for fighting beyond mere ideology.

While both series had their flaws, neither one of them saw their plot derail and crash against what it had always been setting up to be. An infamous example of plot derailment would be Gundam Seed Destiny, in which the good guys became bad without real buildup over the course of an episode, the new cast was supplanted by the old, and the entire ending came out of left field in reversing the main trends of the season.

Well for both of those shows I knew what the point of it all was in the end, Destiny I still don't know what the point of it was all supposed to be nor did the flow of events real feel like anything other than just a bunch of stuff that happened.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Zeta Gundam

That's their prerogative to find flaws in the show, and in fact I encourage that. But that's just what they are. Flaws.

Nailed it IMO. It seriously feels sometimes like certain people are only around to nitpick these shows to death and every time anybody tries to express any sort of appreciation for them even on the smallest scale they'll just jump right in and be all like, "but the flaw, THE FLAWS! OMG THE FLAWS! CAN'T YOU SEE THE FLAWS!", but here's the problem, a lot of people really just don't care THAT much about these flaws that some are so obsessed with pointing out over and over at every possible opportunity, and likewise a lot of us think the whole "trainwreck" thing is little more then a fad/buzzword (which it is because it's dying out already). We are all aware flaws are there (at least I'm pretty sure), but prefer not to blow them out of proportion and let them dominate our viewing experience when there are so many things worth focusing on that make said experience more than enjoyable.

I think where we are now where it's impossible to have a conversation that is not about certain people's all important flaws and that lasts more then a few posts is a flaw in and of itself though. This issue qualifies as a constant derailment/trainwreck now that I actually think about it.

[Xander]

I already gave my two cents on both series some time ago (00 S2 8/10 and CG R2 7/10), but to reiterate a couple of things...I think Dean the Young gave the best description of their overall structures and Kaioshin also made some valid points.

I can certainly see many reasons, up to a reasonable point, for not liking 00 or CG, but overall I do think both series brought their main plots to a conclusion which made enough sense on its own terms. Especially 00, but also CG despite all its flaws and all the naysayers. Maybe not in terms of reality and hard logic, since both endings employ a degree of plot convenience which helps the outcome come out alright when things should be more difficult, but at least in terms of their own themes.

If that's extremely "disappointing" or "nonsensical" for someone then I'd have to disagree. And I do, quite openly, but this debate is getting old and is probably never going to end. There's always an element of personal satisfaction (getting what you wanted to see or just what you like), which varies from viewer to viewer and from series to series, which also influences people's final opinions in one direction or another. I can say I've learned to appreciate endings on their own terms even if my personal philosophy, preferences or morals go against them, without counting that as a severe minus.

As for the future...the 00 movie still has an additional chance to tie up some loose ends so we'll have to wait for that. It's not the route I wanted this series to take, since announcing movies at the last minute does seem a little too opportunistic, but I will give it that chance. In the case of CG, there's not much room for a sequel since the main plot is closed, but I think it will be more likely to see an alternate retelling or alternate universe, something like the Eureka 7 movie or some kind of direct-to-video release (maybe an OVA?), at a random point in the future.

[Frostfire]

I'm not sure why G00 S2 is being called a trainwreck, at least not when compared to R2. The ending for 00 has a large amount of convenience and suspension of disbelief which may be a bit of a change from the much more gritty/sureal ending for S1 of 00, but on the overall it wasn't bad enough to call a trainwreck. Heck it wasn't even all that bad. It may not have been as good, or that good, but it certainly wasn't a turd sitting on the side of the road on a sunny day.

My only really qualm with the ending is the suspension of disbelief for some of the things that happened and general "this is how it is" ending, though it is multitudes better built up and set up than the CG equivalent "this is how it is" ending. I'd rank 00 S2 overall under 00 S1, and I'd rank 00 as an average show overall. The general point of the story, the general characterization of the characters, all these things remained consistant. The show also didn't depend on plot twist and plot bowties to make the show engaging.

Tieing this into CG R2, while the main plot point was preserved, the characterization went all over the place. Too many new characters that did nothing, charactes that just changed sides with no provided reason, teleporting characters appearing in places they cannot explicably reach. Important characters from S1 just became unimportant or turned into complete jokes, plot driving characters as jokes is never a good sign for a show. I wouldn't even call the ending the "intended" ending outside of Lelouch's fate. ZR is far to contrived for me to believe it was the original plan they had from the getgo of S1, notably because the released info on their original ideas would make it impossible to occur. The ending in 00 was built up to happen, the ending for CG with Schneizel was utterly contrived and forced so that show could end. For one and a half seasons your villain is built up to be Charles, just like it was Ribbons for 00. Now imagine the ending of 00 featuring Haro as the final boss. Does. Not. Work.

I wouldn't call either a trainwreck, I'd just call one much worse than the other from a story telling point of view. 00 S2 (7/10), CG R2 (4-5/10).

[Xander]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The show also didn't depend on plot twist and plot bowties to make the show engaging.

Not that much, but some things could be considered plot twists and Aeolia's plans weren't exactly that straightforward. There were certainly lots of cliffhangers, including some which were outright misleading (you expected something big to happen and then it would be resolved very quickly or even rather indirectly the next episode).

Tieing this into CG R2, while the main plot point was preserved, the characterization went all over the place.

This has already been discussed elsewhere at length, which is why I won't do so here and now, but I do agree with some of those points, just not nearly to the same extent or not in such an absolute manner. There are still a number of positives or at least some details which should be mentioned to balance things out, for example, not just an exhaustive and exclusive set of negatives. Still, the point is there were admittedly several flaws in that area which should have been avoided. And to be fair, even in 00 there were some character issues, such as some characters who became unimportant or at least much less so than they were or appeared to be before.

And while it's true that Schneizel wasn't really built up as the final boss per se, which can be considered anti-climatic on that count, it looks like the staff intended it that way. For example, the writer has mentioned in an interview that they didn't want Charles to be the final enemy because that would have made the ending a battle between mysterious powers in another dimension as opposed to a battle between humans, to paraphrase his words. Of course, you could answer that both things could have been combined into one and handled more effectively, but that's what has been said. Schneizel's no Charles, but even he's not Haro. As for Ribbons, he was built up mostly in 00 S2, not so much for almost the entire first season where he appeared to be a tertiary character until he betrayed Corner.

I wouldn't call either a trainwreck, I'd just call one much worse than the other from a story telling point of view. 00 S2 (7/10), CG R2 (4-5/10).

I guess you could say I'm a little more generous in both cases, especially in that of CG, but I do understand your point of view, even without fully agreeing with it.