Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[roriconfan]

Couldn't resist not sharing this
http://trzr23.blogspot.com/2011/03/o...jo-madoka.html
I agree with him BTW

[Archon_Wing]

The blog makes excellent points; such as:

In that case, why not have Homura just record footage of Sayaka, Kyoko being killed and move to the timeline where Madoka and Co. are yet to meet Mami and show them what would happen. That would b convincing enough. Seeing yourself die is sure to knock you out of your socks.

Crap just happens when you bring time travel in and often introduces many plot holes.

And yes, I do remember Uta Kata.

[taofd]

otokomatsuri1

Original tweet When I was on the train two high school girls started talking about Madoka in front of me. I was absolutely delighted! And they were both total hotties! And they were both ordinary high school girls!
イヌカレー「電車に乗ってたら女子高生２人が私の前で、まどか☆マギカの話を始めたんすよ。超うれしかった っす。しかも２人とも美少女なんすよ！しかも普通の女子高生なんすよ！」

Why can't this happen hereeeee?

http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Translat...cial_Documents

He should have went up to them and went: "Would you like to make a contract with me?"

[Solace]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. This story cannot work the way the writer intended it without the plot holes. If you try to approach the story from a "perfect narrative" angle, Homura would have come clean in the first episode and/or just killed Madoka and gotten it over with. It's akin to the villain monologuing instead of just shooting the hero and being done with it.

Are there other ways of doing it? Sure, probably. But this is what is on the table and workable with the factors of time/staff/budget/etc involved. I'm sure the script was worked, reworked, and worked again, and there are of course all the consequences of those changes (VA's redoing lines, redrawing of scenes, etc.). It's about as perfect as it can be in the world of deadlines and budgets though, especially for a relatively short 12 episodes. Most shows struggle to get anything done during that time. It's a solid package, noteworthy if only for that.

Madoka isn't anymore or less "intelligent" than the audience deems it. Personally I found most of Evangelion pretty freaking stupid. Doesn't mean I didn't enjoy it, or that I didn't find any good philosophy to chew on, but I thought the plot was silly and the characters sillier. The same criticisms have been leveled at Madoka and many other anime that are popular for what people perceive them as regardless of their original intent. Angel Beats anyone?

What is fun about Madoka is the sheer amount of thought that comes from it. The show, like it or not, inspires people. There is a ton of fan art, doujins, music, videos, and even people finding interest in classical literature, music, and other historical arts and artists. Just look at the wiki, it's loaded with information that isn't directly tied to the show but fascinating to the fans. Ethics, sociology, physics, philosophy, and other schools of thought rage back and forth in discussions.

The show itself, not so deep. It is a fairly methodical telling of the darker side of the Magical Girl genre. Ignoring everything but plot progression, there are no real surprises or amazing speeches, no clever writing that people will be quoting for years to come. However the characters are endearing, the story is dark and mysterious, and the plot progresses by peeling back the layers, forcing the audience to think in order to guess what happens next.

You can love or hate the fan base at times, like any popular show, but you have the give the staff credit for being intelligent, creative, and perceptive to the desires of anime fans who want something different than yet another helping of the usual stuff.

[roriconfan]

Well aesthetically-wise I am very content with the show. But being too orthological I tend to like shows that make sense and thus I have a hard time enjoying something that... doesn't. But it's true that a show can be good if it inspires the audience and not if it makes sense. I mean, seriously, K-ON created a million music bands when it's not even about music. And I guess the cake sales rose as well.

One thing I can never forgive them visually though is the haircolors. They are so obviously attached to the stereotypical personality, it is annoying. Not to mention the simplistic face structure. I mean Princess Tutu (by far the best mahou shoujo ever made for me) also had narrow variety in faces and bodyforms and most only wore identical ballet uniforms but very few were defined by their haircolor.

And who can forget Neko-sensei? Now that was a memorable cat character. Frakk QB, this one was one messed up feline XD

What makes the Madoka cast memorable? Them dying?

[sa547]

Originally Posted by Solace

Personally I found most of Evangelion pretty freaking stupid.

Offtopic: Uh, pardon me?

My long enjoyment of that controversial Hideaki Anno creation (because of its deeper discussion about human relationships, psychology, and introspection) led me to watch -- and eventually love -- Madoka and appreciate the unusual storytelling, and the way it rouses viewers to put forward their findings, arguments and counter-arguments, and debate/discussion about ethics and morality. Furthermore, compared to Eva, Madoka is milder and it doesn't have to resort to excessive intellectual mindscrewing.

So, I find the word "insane" a more preferable word to describe Eva, and which is why fans like me would like to curb down that mindscrewing and come up with better ways to make that anime palatable, such as writing a solid fic that peels away the excessive noise and pseudoscience/psychobabble and reveal the core meaning of the story.

And I'm making plans for a crossover fic between that and Madoka. I hope you could appreciate my side.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by Solace

The show itself, not so deep. It is a fairly methodical telling of the darker side of the Magical Girl genre. Ignoring everything but plot progression, there are no real surprises or amazing speeches, no clever writing that people will be quoting for years to come. However the characters are endearing, the story is dark and mysterious, and the plot progresses by peeling back the layers, forcing the audience to think in order to guess what happens next.

I consider the whole series as a good tutorial in how to do a good and effective psychological and suspense drama. One of the biggest charisma of anime golden age late 90s shows (led by Eva and Utena) are their psychological components, and Madoka is literally going back to the ideas used in the golden age of the late 90s.

[applejuice]

In interview from either animedia or newtype (not sure since I saw this in 2ch), staff suggested us to re-watch episode 1 after 11th episode and before 12th. I wonder why they are asking something like this, as they are saying there was 'pleasant trick' that no-one got to see properly. (probably not since 4chan gods might have already predicted one.)

[Solace]

That's a terrifying cat. But I get what you're saying about the character designs. I don't mind it as much but it is typical of anime.

What makes the Madoka cast memorable? Them dying?

They're flawed, and admit it. Granted, it's easy to accuse them of being dumb (like I mentioned before about how the plot wouldn't work without being written a certain way), but the staff takes care to give each character a fleshed out personality. Even the side characters get attention, which is nice. They mesh together well, nothing feels forced. Heck they're almost fleshed out too well, causing some fans to make leaps of logic (faith?) that aren't really in the show, like yuri pairings and creative speculations. Like I said before, the show manages to do in one season what many others fail at, developing a cast and telling a story. No moment goes to waste, no beach episodes or school functions, or out of place fan service.

The designs for the main characters aren't just for aesthetic purposes either, they tie into the plot and the symbolism (real and imagined/speculative) in the show. I'm not really a fan of the way they animate the Witches but I have to admit it is....different, and not abused to the point where I can't stand to watch the show. The little details for each Witch are also a nice touch, and helps keep the viewer paying attention to the entire scene instead of just the characters moving around. This extends to many of the scenes outside the Witches lairs, for example Homura's house or the board in the classroom in episode 9.

Edit: Saw these responses, trying to avoid double posting.

Originally Posted by sa547

Offtopic: Uh, pardon me?

My long enjoyment of that controversial Hideaki Anno creation (because of its deeper discussion about human relationships, psychology, and introspection) led me to watch -- and eventually love -- Madoka and appreciate the unusual storytelling, and the way it rouses viewers to put forward their findings, arguments and counter-arguments, and debate/discussion about ethics and morality. Furthermore, compared to Eva, Madoka is milder and it doesn't have to resort to excessive intellectual mindscrewing.

So, I find the word "insane" a more preferable word to describe Eva, and which is why fans like me would like to curb down that mindscrewing and come up with better ways to make that anime palatable, such as writing a solid fic that peels away the excessive noise and pseudoscience/psychobabble and reveal the core meaning of the story.

And I'm making plans for a crossover fic between that and Madoka. I hope you could appreciate my side.

Insane, maybe that's a better way of putting it. I liked Eva, I just felt the inclusion of the symbolism was awkward, the explanations few, and the setting difficult to swallow. Maybe it was because of the seriousness of the show trying to deconstruct the genre that made it somehow both a love/hate relationship for me.

Then again, I haven't seen Rebuild yet. I will soon. I'm just pointing out that there are many people who love Eva, and many people who write it off because they don't see what the fans see. I've heard plenty of criticisms toward Eva that it isn't "deep", it's just a bunch of symbolism and psycho-babble, that it isn't "intelligent" because the characters are insane and the plot is all over the place, etc. Hence my point that no matter what the intent of the work, the audience will find their own meaning and enjoyment.

Originally Posted by MaiNoKen

I consider the whole series as a good tutorial in how to do a good and effective psychological and suspense drama. One of the biggest charisma of anime golden age late 90s shows (led by Eva and Utena) are their psychological components, and Madoka is literally going back to the ideas used in the golden age of the late 90s.

I'll wait for the series to finish before I can fully agree. But it definitely looks back in ways many newer series do not.

[Raiga]

Originally Posted by applejuice

In interview from either animedia or newtype (not sure since I saw this in 2ch), staff suggested us to re-watch episode 1 after 11th episode and before 12th. I wonder why they are asking something like this, as they are saying there was 'pleasant trick' that no-one got to see properly. (probably not since 4chan gods might have already predicted one.)

It was in that scan of the interview you posted earlier, wasn't it? "If anyone out there has been recording the whole run, please watch episode 1 again before 11 and 12. You'd think it was a completely different story."

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Raiga

It was in that scan of the interview you posted earlier, wasn't it? "If anyone out there has been recording the whole run, please watch episode 1 again before 11 and 12. You'd think it was a completely different story."

Oh hell, you are right, lol. I didn't really read it properly and school internet is blocking imgur images, currently.

Then, it's from animedia, since that's where that scan came from.

[Hagoshod]

Something I see a lot of people overlooking:

The girls are not stupid given the context of the story.

If magical, wish-granting entities actually existed, the typical impulsive teenager isn't going to stop and take the "It's too good to be true" clause into account. Add in the fact that Kyubey only responds to direct questions and you'd basically have to know to ask him "Oh, by the way, would having my wish granted result in my soul being trapped inside a small rock by any chance?" to get a straight answer, and it's completely believable why the characters only find out the horrible truth when it's too late.

And as for not questioning Kyubey in general, that's the entire point. This is the deconstruction of a Magical Girl series. One of the primary staples of any MG story is some sort of cutesy talking creature approaching a prospective MG and going "Here, take these magical powers I'm apparently giving you solely out of the goodness of my heart!" and the MG basically going "Oh, okay," before transforming for the first time. Kyubey really just satirizes the over-trustworthiness Magical Girls have toward their mentor-creatures.

If you want to see a "tragic" Magical Girl story that fails to be realistic because it actually does force the characters to act unbelievably stupid to make its desired plot direction work, watch the second half of My HiME.

I will agree with that blog writer's opinion of Homura's characterization currently making no sense, though.



Some other stuff from the blog:

Homura's time travelling abilities are severely flawed. Travelling through timelines is acceptable, but stopping time? What, she can manipulate the fourth dimension now? In that case, why not have Homura just record footage of Sayaka, Kyoko being killed and move to the timeline where Madoka and Co. are yet to meet Mami and show them what would happen.

So, in other words, your question is "Why doesn't Homura just SAY SOMETHING?", right?

Welcome to the party, pal.

The symbolism. Above is a pic of Sayaka's witch. What does it symbolise? Frankly, I can't see anything that stands out particularly. You could say that the witch uses a sword, just like what Sayaka used when she was a mahou shoujo. A second similarity between the worls might be that the second layer of the witch's den was a concert hall, where she had grown to love the violin prodigy and there were some advertisement posters for it. But that's about it. All the other Witches were just random bizzarity (is that a word?).

For this, though, I don't even see what there is to complain about. To see a character start off as a devout heroine of justice, and then slowly fall to the dark side, and then become an outright villain all while keeping the same motifs is pretty interesting writing, and it makes the character all the more tragic because you can identify how their despair has mentally warped them. Does the writer think it would have been better if Sayaka had just been a completely random Monster of the Day with no connections to her previous identity?

According to Kyubey's theory, a person generates more emotional energy as they grow older and thus release more heat. Now, in that case, why not pick on middle-aged women or older to become mahou shoujo as they contain more emotions and will probably release more heat? It's not a rule of thumb that only moe high school girls can become mahou shoujo. There was something said about "second growth phase", which I'm assuming is the third in the following phases:

Uhh, I'm pretty sure he just outright missed the point with this one.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kyubey talking about natural secondary sex characteristics in prospective MGs? Children grow into their teen years and become emotional timebombs. The emotional output is generally even greater in females. Makes sense to me, assuming there was even the slightest shred of truth in his entire explanation.

[MaiNoKen]

Changing the topic somewhat:

http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm13763958

You do not have to be a fan of Madoka Magica to be... entertained by this, but it will certainly add to the flavor. Starting the video while you are consuming any food or beverage is highly unrecommended :P

Originally Posted by Solace

I'll wait for the series to finish before I can fully agree. But it definitely looks back in ways many newer series do not.

I think it will be a major disappointment if the series ends poorly. I think we will see, but I think it will end with good quality and a high note. One thing for sure, the reaction of the whole series has far surpassed any original expectations.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The blog makes excellent points; such as:

Actually someone already answered in the comments of that blog

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Hagoshod

Something I see a lot of people overlooking:

The girls are not stupid given the context of the story.

If magical, wish-granting entities actually existed, the typical impulsive teenager isn't going to stop and take the "It's too good to be true" clause into account.
.....
And as for not questioning Kyubey in general, that's the entire point. This is the deconstruction of a Magical Girl series.
.....
Kyubey really just satirizes the over-trustworthiness Magical Girls have toward their mentor-creatures.
.....
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kyubey talking about natural secondary sex characteristics in prospective MGs? Children grow into their teen years and become emotional timebombs. The emotional output is generally even greater in females. Makes sense to me, assuming there was even the slightest shred of truth in his entire explanation.

Story-wise all that make sense but under a more realistic approach, all that are just a pile of mambo-jumbo.

1) QB assumes only girls about to enter puberty are emotional bombs or are trustworthy enough to accept a wish out of nowhere. Now what a big fat lie that is. 90% of humanity are emotional bombs who would brainlessly accept aid out of nowhere. Would a poor 50 year old male farmer say no to a heavenly creature who will instantly make him young again or rich as hell to finally enjoy his life away from the crappy village he wasted most of his life in? Would a 70 year old granny nun say no to getting superpowers and fught the injustice in the world, a thing she couldn't do her entire life closed in a monastery? I can go on forever but bottom line is "most would gladly accept, some wouldn't even care if there is a prise to all that".

2) As for the trust worthy girls who accept powers in every show, please notice how they do it WHILE they are under attack by monsters. So in a way they do it to save themselves because the alternative would mean death. And with no wish attached as an extra bonus as well.

3) And seriously, an advanced alien race finds it easier to deal with humanity by harvesting power from a bunch of little girls instead of just helping the republicans be in charge and in need of liberating oil from terrorists? (sarcasm) Or a death beam in the core of the Earth? Or convincing a nation that they are superior, Jesus ressurected from the dead, seas open at half because they said so? (more sarcasm) I mean, REALLY, this is the best plan they thought of? Do you know how easily an asteroid can be pulled of its course and towards Earth? Gravity does all the work and there is no triction in space. Hell, even if it burns in the atmosphere the world will go mad and bombs will fly around. I mean REALLY??? Didn't that plan make you feel your IQ dropped a few points?

[BaKaBaKaOtaKu]

OFf-topic: I LOVE EVA. but for some reason, REBUILD didn't really amaze me unlike the original.

Anyhow, I think i found a replacement to my eva. and it's madoka... depending on how this ends would make it to be the greatest anime i've evah seen. XDD

[roriconfan]

Madoka replacing EVA... blasphemy!
Sakura is no Asuka, Homura is no Rei, Madoka is no F-ING Shinji.

[sa547]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Madoka replacing EVA... blasphemy!
Sakura is no Asuka, Homura is no Rei, Madoka is no F-ING Shinji.

Aw, come on, both shows are very different, and it would difficult for Shinbo and Gen to equal or exceed Anno... But what makes them in common? What causes an Eva fan (or many) to take notice and see startling parallels?

Even if they're worlds (and years) apart, IMHO both are psychological thrillers, both have fragile, vulnerable, doubting characters with flawed personalities; both have enemies that don't have a clear intent, but the true antagonists are within those characters, for they have their own fears, and fear is a potent killer of dreams.

Fortunately Madoka doesn't include the maddening technobabble/psychobabble normally found in Eva.



Edit: It'll be nicer if watched with a bottle of retsina.

[fukarming]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Story-wise all that make sense but under a more realistic approach, all that are just a pile of mambo-jumbo.

1) QB assumes only girls about to enter puberty are emotional bombs or are trustworthy enough to accept a wish out of nowhere. Now what a big fat lie that is. 90% of humanity are emotional bombs who would brainlessly accept aid out of nowhere. Would a poor 50 year old male farmer say no to a heavenly creature who will instantly make him young again or rich as hell to finally enjoy his life away from the crappy village he wasted most of his life in? Would a 70 year old granny nun say no to getting superpowers and fught the injustice in the world, a thing she couldn't do her entire life closed in a monastery? I can go on forever but bottom line is "most would gladly accept, some wouldn't even care if there is a prise to all that".

2) As for the trust worthy girls who accept powers in every show, please notice how they do it WHILE they are under attack by monsters. So in a way they do it to save themselves because the alternative would mean death. And with no wish attached as an extra bonus as well.

3) And seriously, an advanced alien race finds it easier to deal with humanity by harvesting power from a bunch of little girls instead of just helping the republicans be in charge and in need of liberating oil from terrorists? (sarcasm) Or a death beam in the core of the Earth? Or convincing a nation that they are superior, Jesus ressurected from the dead, seas open at half because they said so? (more sarcasm) I mean, REALLY, this is the best plan they thought of? Do you know how easily an asteroid can be pulled of its course and towards Earth? Gravity does all the work and there is no triction in space. Hell, even if it burns in the atmosphere the world will go mad and bombs will fly around. I mean REALLY??? Didn't that plan make you feel your IQ dropped a few points?

I can poke holes in most fictions using realistic approach. Do you just hate fictions? I know you really like LOGH, yet it is a show you can very easy to tear apart using realistic approach. IMO, LOGH had way more and much bigger holes compare to Madoka - that didn't make LOGH a bad show.

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Story-wise all that make sense but under a more realistic approach, all that are just a pile of mambo-jumbo.

1) QB assumes only girls about to enter puberty are emotional bombs or are trustworthy enough to accept a wish out of nowhere. Now what a big fat lie that is. 90% of humanity are emotional bombs who would brainlessly accept aid out of nowhere. Would a poor 50 year old male farmer say no to a heavenly creature who will instantly make him young again or rich as hell to finally enjoy his life away from the crappy village he wasted most of his life in? Would a 70 year old granny nun say no to getting superpowers and fught the injustice in the world, a thing she couldn't do her entire life closed in a monastery? I can go on forever but bottom line is "most would gladly accept, some wouldn't even care if there is a prise to all that".

2) As for the trust worthy girls who accept powers in every show, please notice how they do it WHILE they are under attack by monsters. So in a way they do it to save themselves because the alternative would mean death. And with no wish attached as an extra bonus as well.

3) And seriously, an advanced alien race finds it easier to deal with humanity by harvesting power from a bunch of little girls instead of just helping the republicans be in charge and in need of liberating oil from terrorists? (sarcasm) Or a death beam in the core of the Earth? Or convincing a nation that they are superior, Jesus ressurected from the dead, seas open at half because they said so? (more sarcasm) I mean, REALLY, this is the best plan they thought of? Do you know how easily an asteroid can be pulled of its course and towards Earth? Gravity does all the work and there is no triction in space. Hell, even if it burns in the atmosphere the world will go mad and bombs will fly around. I mean REALLY??? Didn't that plan make you feel your IQ dropped a few points?

and nothing of series's value is lost. Those things are all meaningless.

Even world's most finest novel will not be able to escape from that kind of 'lol realism' approach. You call those unexplained details about plot - 'empty text', where it is open for discussion and interpretation. Good series is when this empty text is smaller compare to the time constraint. From what I have seen, Madoka has much less amount of these unexplained parts than any other story driven animations I've seen recently.

Edited: and for no.2, seriously? You do know how Homura was saving Madoka multiple times just to avoid that situation?