The Movie of the Disappearance of Haruhi Suzumiya (Impressions/Reviews)

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I still don't get how you don't understand time travel causality. You can't look at it from the perspective of the time stream in general, you have to look at it from the perspective of the time traveler. As long as events are causal from his perspective, logic is satisfied.

Let's take the most obvious example of a "backwards" causality as pertains to time travel, time travel into the past itself. Someone appears in the past "after" having activated his time machine in the future. Now by your explanations, this is clearly impossible, since the cause (activating the machine) happens after the effect (appearing in the past). But it really doesn't. To the perspective of the time traveler and the time machine, the effect came after the cause. In order for time travel to the past to even exist (in fiction, reality, whatever), causality has to be relative to the observer, in this case the traveler. And why not? Einstein already showed that time itself is relative to the observer, after all.

Einstein showed that the rate time moves forward is relative to the observer. That's quite different from what you're saying.

Regardless, I never claimed that an effect couldn't happen before a cause. If I had, my issue with time travel would be much more fundamental. The thing I'm trying to convey is that a cause and its effect must be independent of each other. Closed loops require interdependence.

It's like a snake trying to swallow its tail. Because they're the same entity, it simply can't happen. In a closed loop, both effects have the other as a cause. That makes it a single system of dependency, which is logically flawed.

[Ithekro]

We do have one other problem with time travel in Haruhi if things are based relative to the observer...the unreliable narrator.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Einstein showed that the rate time passes is relative to the observer. That's quite different from what you're saying.

"The rate time passes" is pretty much what we're talking about. You're picking out one part of my argument that doesn't work out of context, and claiming that ruins the rest of the context. The point is that when time travel is involved, causality is relative to the observer.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Regardless, I never claimed that an effect couldn't happen before a cause. If I had, my issue with time travel would be much more fundamental. The thing I'm trying to convey is that a cause and its effect must be independent of each other. Closed loops require interdependence.

Then you must have meant something else by

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

The universe is governed by cause and effect. For something to happen, something must precede it.

As for cause and effect being independent of each other, we have instances like that in our world. Have you never heard of a "vicious cycle"? Situation A leads to Situation B, which leads back to Situation A, etc. The physics behind lasers works in much the same way. There are no time machines involved in either case, so both progress temporally into the future instead of existing within two specific points in time, but allowing for time travel somewhere along the line would result in the same kind of phenomenon.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

It's like a snake trying to swallow its tail. Because they're the same entity, it simply can't happen. In a closed loop, both effects have the other as a cause. That makes it a single system of dependency, which is logically flawed.

I don't see how the oroboros has anything to do with causal dependency. In fact, if you look at things strictly from perception, there are no loops. For the time traveler, there is no loop, only "extra" time that he wouldn't have lived otherwise. For the "sourceless" data of an ontological paradox, there is also no loop, just a constant, unbroken line of repetition. For external observers in both cases, there is only the point where x arrives from the future, and the point where x goes back into the past.

It's only "logically flawed" because time travel doesn't exist, thus disallowing an effect to occur before its cause. If you allow for time travel in your fiction, then you have to "change the rules" for logic and causality. It's like saying "10+10=8". Of course that's wrong, unless you're counting in Mod 12. Similarly, it's counterintuitive that a square of a number would be negative, since both a negative squared and a positive squared are positive. Except when involving imaginary numbers. The point is, you're arguing against time travel logic using the wrong math.

And that's where I think the real problem is, is that your suspension of disbelief needs a little nurturing. This is fiction. No one here is saying any of this is real. This is just how it works in fiction that contains this particular trope (and it's hardly the only time travel trope). No one really cares if it's possible or not. It's internally logical (whether you're able to see that or not) once you allow for the illogic of time travel, and that's enough to keep most people interested enough to move along to more important plot considerations. If someone ever figures out time travel into the past, we'll see if that's how it works IRL.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

When one thinks about it, is not a time machine a Causality Breaker?

By its very design, to time travel is to move both matter and data in any and every direction in time of your choosing. If you don't bend causality in some way, then you don't HAVE a time machine.

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

Regardless, I never claimed that an effect couldn't happen before a cause. If I had, my issue with time travel would be much more fundamental. The thing I'm trying to convey is that a cause and its effect must be independent of each other. Closed loops require interdependence.

Which we're getting when future-Kyon visits himself in the past. The time-loop was first opened when present-Kyon got stabbed and witnessed the visit of his future-self. Following present-Kyon after those events we eventually encounter whatever reasons/decisions he needed to make to travel back in time to those events that needed his help and thus the time-loop was closed. We then follow the now "future-Kyon" in his journey to go back to where he started and the time-travel incident is closed.

The author of the fanfic "Kyon-Big Damn Hero" has used this effect as a plot-point in his fic and makes it work like the novels and movie did.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

The point is that when time travel is involved, causality is relative to the observer.

I agree, to an extent. Read on.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Then you must have meant something else by

Except for the actual instant when the time travel occurs, this is exactly the case. It's why if I leave this time and go to the past for a year, I'd be a year older when I returned (even if I returned a second after I left). Within the frame of reference of the thing that's being affected, causes always precede effects, even if on the grand scale of space-time, the effect happened "first." It's like when Kyon and Mikuru talked about her mole. For Mikuru, she heard about it before she told Kyon about it. For Kyon, he heard about it before he told Mikuru about it. Causes preceded effects relative to each person there. That's why you can't get caught up in the absolute position in time that something happened.

On the other hand, the interdependence of the events IS logically flawed, since both had the other as a prerequisite. Independently, the causality is fine. Together, the causality breaks. This is because from the frame of reference of the talks, the prior knowledge of each must have happened before the comments themselves. Now we have two things that in a single frame of reference must occur before the other, which can't happen.

It's like trying to exchange the places of two coins by pushing them together. Yes, if the coins were moved independently, then by the time each reached their destination, the destination would be clear. However, that's not the case, as each requires the other one to be fully moved in order to take its spot.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

As for cause and effect being independent of each other, we have instances like that in our world. Have you never heard of a "vicious cycle"? Situation A leads to Situation B, which leads back to Situation A, etc. The physics behind lasers works in much the same way. There are no time machines involved in either case, so both progress temporally into the future instead of existing within two specific points in time, but allowing for time travel somewhere along the line would result in the same kind of phenomenon.

I'm aware of positive feedback loops. However, they're "unstable" from a time traveling perspective. Because each iteration alters the state for the next one, there's no infinite loop, and you can work backwards until you reach a beginning (or forwards until you reach the end). That's not the same thing as the closed loops in MHS.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I don't see how the oroboros has anything to do with causal dependency. In fact, if you look at things strictly from perception, there are no loops. For the time traveler, there is no loop, only "extra" time that he wouldn't have lived otherwise. For the "sourceless" data of an ontological paradox, there is also no loop, just a constant, unbroken line of repetition. For external observers in both cases, there is only the point where x arrives from the future, and the point where x goes back into the past.

Of course if you look at things strictly from perception, there are no loops. That's what I was getting at when I said causes always preceded effects. Furthermore, I've agreed that the causality of an ontological paradox does work, retroactively. The problem is "beginning" it, if that's what you want to call it, in the first place.

I worry that you're making the same mistake that Koizumi did when he was discussing the anthropic principle with Kyon. His (incorrect) interpretation was that since the universe must exist if we perceive it, then our perceptions create the universe. That's as ludicrous as saying if my pen needs ink to write, then the act of writing puts ink in the pen. Here too, it's wrong to think the existence of closed loops forces correct causality. The correct causality must exist first.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

And that's where I think the real problem is, is that your suspension of disbelief needs a little nurturing. This is fiction. No one here is saying any of this is real. This is just how it works in fiction that contains this particular trope (and it's hardly the only time travel trope). No one really cares if it's possible or not. Its internally logical (whether you're able to see that or not) once you allow for the illogic of time travel, and that's enough to keep most people interested enough to move along to more important plot considerations. If someone ever figures out time travel into the past, we'll see if that's how it works IRL.

That's exactly what I conceded last page. I said something like "I can accept that; it doesn't make sense, but it makes for a decent story. As long as we agree that it works only within the bounds of a story, that's fine." The problem is that people keep trying to convince me that it DOES make sense; in other words, that this could happen in real life. I don't think it's possible to make that assumption, and I believe that when dealing with the unknown, you need to work with what you DO know, not what you THINK something might be like. Furthermore, I don't believe that it's valid to accept something that is inherently illogical, as you admit time travel is.

It's worth noting that time travel DOES have the potential to be logical. There was a story once where a person went back in time, and he found that every single thing was harder than diamonds. If it had rained, for example, he would've been perforated. Obviously this would be because with that interpretation, it's impossible to alter the past. Other ways of representing it allow for altering the past as long as it doesn't alter the future. If you tried to shoot your grandfather, your gun would jam, the bullet would miss, the wound wouldn't be fatal, etc. The fact that you're alive makes it causally impossible to kill your progenitor.

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Which we're getting when future-Kyon visits himself in the past. The time-loop was first opened when present-Kyon got stabbed and witnessed the visit of his future-self. Following present-Kyon after those events we eventually encounter whatever reasons/decisions he needed to make to travel back in time to those events that needed his help and thus the time-loop was closed. We then follow the now "future-Kyon" in his journey to go back to where he started and the time-travel incident is closed.

The problem, of course, is that for Kyon to have a chance to close the loop, it's precluded that the loop is already closed. In other words, not only does he not have a choice in the matter, but he never opened or closed the loop. It was always looping.

--

In fact (tangent time), it's this twisted logic that brings out another thing I really don't like about the time travel in MHS. Vallen Chaos Valiant mentioned two pages back that the time travelers are terrified that the past might not happen how they remember it. To me, this is silly, especially if you consider time to be the predetermined stream that closed loops require. You exist, therefore the past happened in such a way that allowed you to exist, therefore LEAVE WELL ENOUGH FREAKING ALONE.

But of course, they go poking around, convincing people like Kyon that things have to work in certain way and it's partially his job to make sure of that. And can you blame him? If he doesn't go back in time to save himself when he's trying to reset the alternate reality, he dies! Or at least, he has no reason to assume he doesn't die. And if Yuki doesn't get stopped, then the alternate reality persists indefinitely.

Yuki is right when she says in Intrigues that knowing the future is crippling. Sure, you're still free, but if you don't do exactly what you're supposed to do, you should at least be wracked with guilt - guilt that you're screwing up other peoples' reality (which, incidentally, is the same guilt Kyon should've felt for destroying the Yukiverse: guilt that was conspicuously absent). Of course, that's the best case scenario. The worst case is that not only might you/others die, but the continued reality as a whole is precluded. That's the problem with being able to alter time: things that had existed - lives, places, entire histories - suddenly don't.

I have a theory that since time is and necessarily must be a single path, everything would instantly resolve itself into a reality that is fully consistent. Someone did something that screws up the future? Then that future gets altered. That prevents something from happening in the past? Then time after that point of prevention gets rewritten. Continue until there are no more inconsistencies and we finally reach a future where time travel is possible but the people with that power are too smart to abuse it (unlike Mikuru's people). We'd be left with a timeline that would play out as you'd expect if it came into being causally, rather than all at once.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like the concept of a group of people that stumbled upon an ability that ruins them. It's almost refreshing to see an organization that second-guesses itself non-stop, one whose only reason for existing is their existence itself. That's great. I just wish the time mechanic itself was a little more thought out. (And admittedly, I might be giving the author too much credit; perhaps he decided that time DID need to be kept safe and just made a group to do it.)

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

The problem, of course, is that for Kyon to have a chance to close the loop, it's precluded that the loop is already closed. In other words, not only does he not have a choice in the matter, but he never opened or closed the loop. It was always looping.

Except that from 'present-Kyon's' viewpoint, the loop only just started. He knows that sometime in his future he will travel back in time to rescue himself. When that happens, the loop closes.

I'll be glad when book 7 gets animated!

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

On the other hand, the interdependence of the events IS logically flawed, since both had the other as a prerequisite. Independently, the causality is fine. Together, the causality breaks. This is because from the frame of reference of the talks, the prior knowledge of each must have happened before the comments themselves. Now we have two things that in a single frame of reference must occur before the other, which can't happen.

Again, only if time travel doesn't exist. I can't help but notice that you quoted pretty much my entire post except for the part explaining why you're using "the wrong math" by not taking into account time travel in your logical arguments and your analogies. To borrow from Doc Brown, you're not thinking fourth dimensionally (more on that later). But up until now, that lack so flawed those analogies that I couldn't even refute them properly. Until now. See below.

Originally Posted by Gamer_2k4

It's like trying to exchange the places of two coins by pushing them together. Yes, if the coins were moved independently, then by the time each reached their destination, the destination would be clear. However, that's not the case, as each requires the other one to be fully moved in order to take its spot.

Gotcha. Again you're not taking time travel into account for your analogy. You say you can't push two coins through each other to switch their places. That's true. But time travel allows you to do what you would do in real life to switch those coins' places: pick one up off of the table and move it where you want it. This is why some people refer to time travel as travel in the "fourth dimension". Like in the coin analogy, once you allow for travel in a different dimension―third (height) for your analogy, and fourth (time) for time travel―the problem is solved.

To further tweak your analogy, let's simulate the flow of time by putting those coins on a conveyer belt. And you don't even need a second coin. You can add multiple coins for cause/effect events in the "past", but as you said, their causalities are all linked, so they're in effect "one" coin. As a/the coin reaches the point of travel into the past, you pick it up and move it to the "arrival" position. Cause (travel into the past) precedes effect (arriving into the past). Whatever happens to the coin in its journey happens, and once a/the coin again reaches the point of travel into the past, you repeat.

[Ithekro]

Trouble starts when you have beings that operate beyond what people generally call the fourth dimention of travel (time). Yuki's species operates beyond time and Haruhi's powers seems to break beyond time as well if her "time quake" in the past effected the people in the future suddenly to the point they just noticed it (seemingly "three years ago" relative to Mikuru's perspective in the future as well as her perspective in the present, though Mikuru(BIG) does throw a lot of bugs into any theory since she seems to be giving orders to herself).

Then you have sliders, which would operate differently than time travelers, cutting across the timelines rather than moving backwards or forwards along a single(?) line.

[Gamer_2k4]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Gotcha. Again you're not taking time travel into account for your analogy. You say you can't push two coins through each other to switch their places. That's true. But time travel allows you to do what you would do in real life to switch those coins' places: pick one up off of the table and move it where you want it. This is why some people refer to time travel as travel in the "fourth dimension". Like in the coin analogy, once you allow for travel in a different dimension―third (height) for your analogy, and fourth (time) for time travel―the problem is solved.

To further tweak your analogy, let's simulate the flow of time by putting those coins on a conveyer belt. And you don't even need a second coin. You can add multiple coins for cause/effect events in the "past", but as you said, their causalities are all linked, so they're in effect "one" coin. As a/the coin reaches the point of travel into the past, you pick it up and move it to the "arrival" position. Cause (travel into the past) precedes effect (arriving into the past). Whatever happens to the coin in its journey happens, and once a/the coin again reaches the point of travel into the past, you repeat.

I get that. I really do. It's like a Newton's cradle, where the balls keep transferring their energy into each other. I understand that. I'm not arguing the causality of the loop after the fact. I don't believe that was ever my argument. I just want to know how the coin got on the belt in the first place.

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

It's only "logically flawed" because time travel doesn't exist, thus disallowing an effect to occur before its cause. If you allow for time travel in your fiction, then you have to "change the rules" for logic and causality. It's like saying "10+10=8". Of course that's wrong, unless you're counting in Mod 12. Similarly, it's counterintuitive that a square of a number would be negative, since both a negative squared and a positive squared are positive. Except when involving imaginary numbers. The point is, you're arguing against time travel logic using the wrong math..

I didn't answer this because I've answered it many times before. Yes, if you change the rules of logic, anything works. I find it remarkably hard to come to grips with that, that's all.

Imagine you were reading a book where everyone proved their points to be indisputably true using fallacies. Some guy uses a straw man argument here, another guy uses an ad hominem argument there...you get the idea. Everyone in the story happily accepts this, and the book presents that as the correct and proper way to argue. Do you see why I might have an issue accepting this?

Sure, you can say all you want, "It's a book, it's fiction, the rules in there are different from the rules in real life, etc., etc., etc." And yes, at the end of the day, I have to admit that within the story, different logic applies, and I ultimately have to accept that. It's not real. I get that. But when I'm confronted by such a grievous affront to logic as that, or as broken time travel, I'm going to want to fight back.

I'll be the first to admit that fiction is often solely intended to be an escape from reality. But when you abandon causal logic, the most fundamental force behind everything we see and do, you've not only escaped reality; you've boarded a rocket ship and blasted off to another galaxy. When I read a story like that, it's like looking at a Penrose triangle. Most of it looks and feels just fine, and everything's connected nicely. But then I step back and evaluate it as a whole, and it just doesn't work! That legitimately frustrates me, and it ruins what could have been an enjoyable work.

[Ithekro]

It seems to be a plot point that everything is predeturmined in Haruhi's Universe according to the Time Travelers...yet part of the timeline is them shifting things slightly to maintain it. (Or making sure that things go as they were suppose to).

Though there is a chance that the only reason they need to go back into the past in the first place is because of Haruhi. Reality Warper wants Time Travelers, so stuff happens that requires fixing to bring them back when they probably either wouldn't have bothered, or never would have invented a time machine without the Reality Warper willing it to happen.

I'm pretty sure this subject will be addressed if they make more seasons or films for Haruhi.

[Gamer_2k4]

Oh, that's interesting! Sure, if you exist, then the past must have happened in such a way that you would exist, meaning that there's no maintenance necessary. The past is the past and that's great. But what if something outside of time (a god), suddenly shook everything at a certain point in time? It would be like thrashing around in the middle of a pool. Time unravels, loops form, and now someone has to clean up the mess. It doesn't make sense, but it's not supposed to make sense, since now we're bringing the supernatural into it.

Okay, then! Arguments retracted.

--

For those of you wondering about my sudden change of heart, here's my justification. There's a very substantial difference between ignoring logic and willfully overriding logic. Up until Ithekro's post, I felt that the author of the MHS series was just ignoring causal logic for the sake of doing fun stuff with his story. To be honest, I still feel like that, in a way; his plots and characters smell of "Hey, this would be cool" rather than "I've thought this out and this is the best way to go."

However, forgetting about logic is one thing; acknowledging it and then actually supplying a concrete reason for breaking it is something else altogether. It's like if the author of the fallacy book I mentioned above was writing the story as a social commentary. I'm all for hugely significant, hugely powerful things like Haruhi; it's actually one of the things that I enjoyed so much about the anime. You think you're in a normal world, then BAM, everything's much bigger than you ever expected.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

Except that from 'present-Kyon's' viewpoint, the loop only just started. He knows that sometime in his future he will travel back in time to rescue himself. When that happens, the loop closes.

I'll be glad when book 7 gets animated!

yeah though I was still wondering how he survived though (if he got stabbed and nearly died, no one would be there to save him; plus, he dropped the weapon).

Spoiler for off topic comparison:

reminds me how a certain someone with a lightning-shaped scar escaped from dementors and lived... especially when he'll be sealed off in a fate worse than death... he saw himself but how could he live

[ijuinkun]

When Kyon is passing out after being stabbed, he hears a voice just like his own speaking to him, as well as seeing two of Mikuru (an adult and a teenaged version both). This implies a future version of himself and Mikuru arriving at the scene to save the day.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

When Kyon is passing out after being stabbed, he hears a voice just like his own speaking to him, as well as seeing two of Mikuru (an adult and a teenaged version both). This implies a future version of himself and Mikuru arriving at the scene to save the day.

That's exactly what ends up happening. (according to the novels, that is)

[Heiwatsuki]

OMG, i am dieing to watch this XD. Hope a better quality one comes out soon. And what does GAR Mean? judging from your responses to watching some parts of the movie, it was godly right? XD. btw. you guys up there are really really smart.. i am barely understanding what you guys are saying.
but.. my view of time in terms of reality is.. Time travel is impossible. What is time? mikuru explained that time is like a moving picture and that theres frames and ect. But in reality time is part of existance itself. Time is the continuation of experience. Not something that can be reminded. That would be like destroying reality and creating a new reality that is similar to the past. Also i do know that you are talking in a view where time travel can be possible, aka fiction. Many peoples views of traveling to the past is different. EX: 1 view may say you can travel to the past and even see yourself when your younger. In the movie The Girl Who Leapt Through Time, the authors view on time traveling was in the movie, the movies view was of rewinding time. he/she thought time travel was impossible but you could rewind time. So in other words rewind instead of traveling. When i say rewind, i mean make time go backwards so that time is what it was before and that also means wherever you were when you time traveled, You are no longer in the same place you designated to rewind to, but you are where you stood in the future. But nobodies perception of time is wrong. Everything everyone have said are theories based on the belief that ''if'' time travel WAS real. Heres my point of view on that matter. as you know in fiction anything can happen. Imagine the world, but time travel exists in that world. In my opinion, i also believe in the metaphor about the snail and the tail. Logically speaking, it cant happen and closed loops in my opinion cannot be possible(right now im not sure on the definition of closed loop, i think that its a two time settings where they in a sense, meet together like the snake trying to swallow the tail?. Anyway in anime, they change laws of physics and and they add their own personal beliefs. The traveling into the past and being able to see yourself is a commonly used setting and belief in the cartoon industry. And i also believe that its not possible for the effect to go to the cause. this is in the view that time isnt a timeline or stream. this view is referring to time as a Whole and not a stream, Like a circle, Going to the past and being able to chat to yourself would be possible if you were to think time as a timeline, since you came from the future, and your past self didnt go into the past yet, you would still exist because your past didnt go yet. But if time wasent some timeline or steam, and there was no past present or future, and its just one Existance, Then the effect couldnt happen before the cause. Or in other words, You couldnt time travel in the first place, only rewind time. Also looking at time from a even more realistic view. Traveling to the future or your future self traveling to the past cannot be possible cause the future doesnt exist. The future never will exist since you will always be in the present, every step you get closer to the future and at the same time the future goes 1 step away from you. But this view is my view on reality. in reality and not fiction, i dont think theres a timeline so its impossible for the possibility of time travel. And trying to go to the past from the present is the same. And yes, i did state that anything is possible by changing the laws of the universe somewhere earlier in this long long long article.

[ijuinkun]

Originally Posted by FDW

That's exactly what ends up happening. (according to the novels, that is)

Well yes, but I got moderated for spoiling too much in this thread before, so I was trying to keep from referring to scenes that haven't been animated yet.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by xKou

snip

I know you're excited, but space you're a little bit better, you're hard to understand.

Originally Posted by ijuinkun

Well yes, but I got moderated for spoiling too much in this thread before, so I was trying to keep from referring to scenes that haven't been animated yet.

Which is why I didn't go into any detail, but yeah, some people really are sensitive about spoilers. (Even though what I said isn't really much of one.)

[Gamer_2k4]

Well, heck, my debate with you guys had spoilers popping up all over. I guess we have implicit TL;DR spoiler tags, eh?

[CrowKenobi]

Nah, it's just any specific explanation of why Kyon went back in time to save himself would be considered spoiling (at least until novel 7 events gets animated).