(L) Log Horizon (novel)

[Tenzen12]

Ok, thanks

[J4n1]

No mention of children yet.
Not even mention on whether or not adventurers can have children.

[Tenzen12]

Yeah, that was main question

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Triptrippill

I'll explain in a little more detail.

A lander would pick the apprentice subclass then Rudy could be registered as a "teacher" for the Lander, then the Lander would switch subclasses to a Adventurer.

Another thing to point out is Shiroe used a "Outside" method to turn Rudy into an adventurer and thus creating a new subclass, This does not mean that method is required again. (i can give a theoretical example if you like)

edit: expanding on the topic. Rudy had died and Shiroe was trying to reconnect the soul to the body, useing the strong will and emotion of Rudy to help that processes.

side note: (I don't think the Adventurer subclass has levels like other subclasses, making it un-level-able and should not reflect directly on the character level. but i could be wrong)

If becoming a 'true' Adventurer was that easy, Rudy would have done so. Clearly, switching your subclass to adventurer doesn't immediately make you one. Currently, the only way for Landers to become true, immortal adventurers is through Shiroe's contract. So any Lander using the Apprentice system would still have to go through Shiroe to become an actual Adventurer.

Given that it's not listed as "Lander only", the Adventurer subclass is as available as any subclass for Adventurers. You could be an Adventurer/Adventurer when they were still just playing the game. The subclass is designed to let Adventurers boost their XP gain. Becoming an Adventurer through the Apprentice subclass is just a needlessly roundabout way of getting there for them.

Originally Posted by Triptrippill

If this is referring to "3" on my previous post then my explanation follows.

There are subclasses that are not accessible to the server that Loq Horizon is home to.

Spoiler for LN Volume 1 chapter 3 part 1:

Shiroe wasn't very familiar with the tracker subclass. The 12 main classes that dictated combat were designed by the creators of Elder Tales, a large American corporation. The strength of each class would be balanced for each update and more subclasses would be added. The outsourced company in each country, such as Fuji entertainment in Japan, may create a subclass unique to its server.

Shiroe remembered about 50 subclasses from memory, but with exclusive subclasses created in other servers, it was hard to guess their number.

Yes? But that doesn't really matter. The Apprentice subclass is still limited to what classes the player can get to if the player wants to switch. I there is, say, a "Death Knight" subclass on the European servers, an Apprentice would still have to go to Europe, and do whatever is required to get the subclass (buy an item, do a quests, what have you) before they could change to a Death Knight.

[Triptrippill]

Its been so long since i had a good discussion, Thanks Keroko.

Originally Posted by Keroko

If becoming a 'true' Adventurer was that easy, Rudy would have done so. Clearly, switching your subclass to adventurer doesn't immediately make you one. Currently, the only way for Landers to become true, immortal adventurers main class is through Shiroe's contract. So any Lander using the Apprentice system would still have to go through Shiroe to become an actual Adventurer.

ok i feel there is something in our discussion that isn't connecting.

Lets start off with Shiroe's contract.

Spoiler for part of the contract:

3, Log Horizon will provide Rundelhous with necessary support to aid him in carrying out his tasks... including the identity of an Adventurer.
4, This contract is based on mutual agreement of both parties, whatever things either party gain will remain in effect even if the contract lapses.

We have to remember that this was created by Shiroe, so it is more than likely not part of the "old game". This gives way to the possibility that Shiroe managed to create the adventurer subclass (like how the adventures started crafting non-menu items). If this is true then this subclass wouldn't be around for Rudy to find.

Rudy's subclass is what gives him his Adventurer "powers" or skills depending on how you wish to look at is. (see spoiler)

Spoiler for vol 4 ch 5 part 6:

Rundelhous unconsciously follows his gaze and opens another tab on the status screen. He found the word Adventurer.


Name: Rundelhous Code

Class: Sorcerer

Subclass: Adventurer


Rundelhous stared blankly at these words for a long while.

(That's right, I do not have a subclass, that contract forced me to take on a new subclass Adventurer...)

Rundelhous checked the abilities of the subclass in a hurry, a list of unfamiliar abilities he heard about: 'ability to respawn in the cathedral', 'telepathy ability', 'adjustment to EXP gain', 'use of bank and warehouse', 'detailed status screen', there are also many more abilities Rundelhous doesn't understand, and they are all listed together here.

(So many... If I have this power...)

The point I'm trying to make with the idea of the apprentice subclass is that the creation of non-old-game items/magic/skills might create a synergy with old-game items/magic/skills that could have never been imagined.

Becoming an Adventurer through the Apprentice subclass is just a needlessly roundabout way of getting there for them.

We really don't know if the Adventurer subclass is available to anyone other than Rudy.
I was following this train of thought when wrote that process.

... Yes? But that doesn't really matter. The Apprentice subclass is still limited to what classes the player can get to if the player wants to switch. I there is, say, a "Death Knight" subclass on the European servers, an Apprentice would still have to go to Europe, and do whatever is required to get the subclass (buy an item, do a quests, what have you) before they could change to a Death Knight.

The qualifications for the subclasses is absolutely true, the thought i had in mind when i wrote about getting the rare subclasses was that there would more than likely be people who would visit the japan server. (if im not mistaken the author said something about a vampire subclass showing up).

That feels about right, tho i do want to add a new item to this.

When i was thinking about it, why would the author write about the Apprentice subclass if Minori decided to be a scribe like Shiroe then why make this subclass. it feels more like the author is setting something up.

[J4n1]

The contract did not give Rundelhaus a subclass of Adventurer, but an identity of an Adventurer.
I think that is a pretty important distinction, the subclass comes from the identity, subclass does not give the identity, and another lander taking the subclass (if they even can) would probably not become immortal.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Triptrippill

ok i feel there is something in our discussion that isn't connecting.

Lets start off with Shiroe's contract.

Spoiler for part of the contract:

3, Log Horizon will provide Rundelhous with necessary support to aid him in carrying out his tasks... including the identity of an Adventurer.
4, This contract is based on mutual agreement of both parties, whatever things either party gain will remain in effect even if the contract lapses.

We have to remember that this was created by Shiroe, so it is more than likely not part of the "old game". This gives way to the possibility that Shiroe managed to create the adventurer subclass (like how the adventures started crafting non-menu items). If this is true then this subclass wouldn't be around for Rudy to find.

Rudy's subclass is what gives him his Adventurer "powers" or skills depending on how you wish to look at is. (see spoiler)

Spoiler for vol 4 ch 5 part 6:

Rundelhous unconsciously follows his gaze and opens another tab on the status screen. He found the word Adventurer.


Name: Rundelhous Code

Class: Sorcerer

Subclass: Adventurer


Rundelhous stared blankly at these words for a long while.

(That's right, I do not have a subclass, that contract forced me to take on a new subclass Adventurer...)

Rundelhous checked the abilities of the subclass in a hurry, a list of unfamiliar abilities he heard about: 'ability to respawn in the cathedral', 'telepathy ability', 'adjustment to EXP gain', 'use of bank and warehouse', 'detailed status screen', there are also many more abilities Rundelhous doesn't understand, and they are all listed together here.

(So many... If I have this power...)

The point I'm trying to make with the idea of the apprentice subclass is that the creation of non-old-game items/magic/skills might create a synergy with old-game items/magic/skills that could have never been imagined.

We really don't know if the Adventurer subclass is available to anyone other than Rudy.
I was following this train of thought when wrote that process.

Allright, let's put the issue of whether Adventurers can or cannot take the Adventurer subclass aside for the moment and assume for this argument that they can't and Rudy is the first and only person with the Adventurer subclass. That still means that Landers can't just apprentice to Rudy, train their Apprentice subclass a bit and just decide "yeah, I want to be an Adventurer now" and poof to become immortal Adventurers.

Shiroe had to go through quite a bit of trouble and some very, very rare resources to make the contract that turned Rudy into an Adventurer. It's not going to be that easy for other Landers to become one.

Originally Posted by Triptrippill

The qualifications for the subclasses is absolutely true, the thought i had in mind when i wrote about getting the rare subclasses was that there would more than likely be people who would visit the japan server. (if im not mistaken the author said something about a vampire subclass showing up).

That feels about right, tho i do want to add a new item to this.

When i was thinking about it, why would the author write about the Apprentice subclass if Minori decided to be a scribe like Shiroe then why make this subclass. it feels more like the author is setting something up.

Yeah, he's setting Minori up as Shiroe's apprentice.

No, really. That's all I think there is to it. Sometimes there's not really any deep, dark Shyamalan-reveal and things are just what they seem. In the long run, the Apprentice subclass -due to it's experience boosts- is able to level to cap much more swiftly than if she had become a Scribe. It's a way to have her catch up and possibly play the 'talented student' card.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by J4n1

The contract did not give Rundelhaus a subclass of Adventurer, but an identity of an Adventurer.
I think that is a pretty important distinction, the subclass comes from the identity, subclass does not give the identity, and another lander taking the subclass (if they even can) would probably not become immortal.

No, it gave Rundelhaus both. It explicitly states that Rudy sees his subclass as Adventurer when he opens his status menu after he respawns in the Cathedral. The identity thing is mental because with the subclass Rudy doesn't feel like he's a counterfeit trying to be something he isn't; the world acknowledges that he is. The first is world mechanics where as the second is self-confidence. Shiroe engineered the first to cause the second.

With regards to whether you can use Rudy and the Apprentice sub-class to game the system that's debatable. First off, we know there are some sub-classes which are NPC restricted meaning that players cannot become them (like Rayneshia's and her father's) and we know there are special ones that are one-offs like Souji's. However we don't see apprentices running around as Apprentice Sword Saints and then gaming the system to become more sword saints (and Souji seems a nice enough guy that he'd do it for a female friend). This implies that when you're switching from the Apprentice sub-class to the class you apprenticed to you also need to meet the prerequesites of that sub-class and whatever conditions you need to fulfill in order to gain that sub-class. Considering some subclasses have stated conditions/clauses which are explicitly "this or that cannot be" or "there can be only one" it seems like that would trump the apprentice's vague summary.

Also note that when the Apprentice sub-class was being explained it wasn't listing the in-game rules, it was summarizing the intention and function of the class for the reader. Meaning the statement that the apprentice can then become any other sub-class isn't necessarily in-game law but instead could be a brief summation of player knowledge of the class and why Shiroe recommended it to Minori.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by WhiteJoker

No, it gave Rundelhaus both. It explicitly states that Rudy sees his subclass as Adventurer when he opens his status menu after he respawns in the Cathedral. The identity thing is mental because with the subclass Rudy doesn't feel like he's a counterfeit trying to be something he isn't; the world acknowledges that he is. The first is world mechanics where as the second is self-confidence. Shiroe engineered the first to cause the second.

With regards to whether you can use Rudy and the Apprentice sub-class to game the system that's debatable. First off, we know there are some sub-classes which are NPC restricted meaning that players cannot become them (like Rayneshia's and her father's) and we know there are special ones that are one-offs like Souji's. However we don't see apprentices running around as Apprentice Sword Saints and then gaming the system to become more sword saints (and Souji seems a nice enough guy that he'd do it for a female friend). This implies that when you're switching from the Apprentice sub-class to the class you apprenticed to you also need to meet the prerequesites of that sub-class and whatever conditions you need to fulfill in order to gain that sub-class. Considering some subclasses have stated conditions/clauses which are explicitly "this or that cannot be" or "there can be only one" it seems like that would trump the apprentice's vague summary.

Also note that when the Apprentice sub-class was being explained it wasn't listing the in-game rules, it was summarizing the intention and function of the class for the reader. Meaning the statement that the apprentice can then become any other sub-class isn't necessarily in-game law but instead could be a brief summation of player knowledge of the class and why Shiroe recommended it to Minori.

Contract gives the identity, it is stated in the contract, no actual mention of subclass in the contract.
The identity of an adventurer, comes with a side effect of adventurer subclass.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by J4n1

Contract gives the identity, it is stated in the contract, no actual mention of subclass in the contract.
The identity of an adventurer, comes with a side effect of adventurer subclass.

Well if we're arguing that then the contract doesn't say it gives Rudy the identity of an adventurer, it says Log Horizon would provide Rudy with support to accomplish his tasks which includes Rudy's desire to become an Adventurer; the sentence doesn't imply that Log Horizon would provide Rudy with the identity of an Adventurer but that Log Horizon would help Rudy accomplish his tasks, one of which includes being an Adventurer.

Presumably guilds can only be joined by Adventurers meaning that only Adventurers can be part of the Log Horizon guild and the implication in the contract is that Shiroe was "making" Rudy an adventurer by gaming the system; since the contract was enforced by the game to make Rudy a member of Log Horizon, a guild of Adventurers, Rudy had to be an Adventurer in order to join Log Horizon. How that would be accomplished was entirely up to the game's mechanics which opted to provide Rudy the sub-class since it didn't change the fact that he's an NPC instead of a player (in essence quibbling over the difference between Player and NPC vs Adventurer and NPC where Player/NPC is an origin and Adventurer is game mechanics).

[Swordstriker21]

Originally Posted by aohige

^yes, but the method is unknown, only hinted between Shiroe and Nureha

As for next season, volume 6 is where the part 2 (of probably 3) of Log Horizon kicks off.
I suppose they'll need more material for another season, hopefully we'll see "Log Horizon 2" on NHK within the next year or two.

In other words, Mamare, hurry up and start the eight volume!

I kinda have misgivings about NHK doing a possible season 2 despite the bang-up job they're doing w/ the adaptation. They kinda skirt away from the "darker" (I use the term loosely) aspects of the series and I just can't picture a toned down version of the current arc. I'm sure it's doable but, personally, it'll take away a significant chunk of my enjoyment for the arc. Course this is just me and I'm sure NHK would be able to pull off an interesting adaptation of it at the very least but still...

Oh and about Rudie I'm partial to the idea that it wont be that easy for Landers to suddenly become an adventurer simply because it would dial down the attainment of Rudies dream for me. Course it would be an interesting development if it ever was possible w/ all the possible complications.

[FRS]

Having finished reading vol 5 translation, i can see how Akatsuki confidence took a big hit at the end ouch.

[questmas]

just read up to the end of v5c5

I'm a little confused... was Marvis trying to start a war?
If not, what was he trying to do?

also, I love the tags for this thread

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by questmas

just read up to the end of v5c5

I'm a little confused... was Marvis trying to start a war?
If not, what was he trying to do?

also, I love the tags for this thread

Test and undermine the limitations of Akiba's administrative and logistical capacities. It is an attack on Akiba's/The Round Table's prestige/legitimacy.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Does anyone have any idea how far into the light novels' plot the anime episodes will go? There will be 25 anime episodes. As of episode 12, they are in novel 3.

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by questmas

just read up to the end of v5c5

I'm a little confused... was Marvis trying to start a war?
If not, what was he trying to do?

also, I love the tags for this thread

Marvis was trying nothing, except to do what others told him to.
As Shiroe stated, he is too stupid (or was it crude?) to try something like this, someone else is pulling his strings.

[sandhy88]

So, The miss at Mavis documents really because of Reynesia or Mavis using underhand move? BTW I don't understand for what Shiroe must become a detestable person? Is it just for Reynesia or all people of Akiba? As I though that Shiroe's reputation more and more in dangerous line.

[ApathyEcstasy]

Originally Posted by sandhy88

So, The miss at Mavis documents really because of Reynesia or Mavis using underhand move? BTW I don't understand for what Shiroe must become a detestable person? Is it just for Reynesia or all people of Akiba? As I though that Shiroe's reputation more and more in dangerous line.

In order to keep Raynesia on Akiba's side, he has to play the "bad cop" while Krusty plays the "good cop".

[J4n1]

Originally Posted by sandhy88

So, The miss at Mavis documents really because of Reynesia or Mavis using underhand move? BTW I don't understand for what Shiroe must become a detestable person? Is it just for Reynesia or all people of Akiba? As I though that Shiroe's reputation more and more in dangerous line.

Considering how it seems to have been the point to break the logistics of Akiba, it is almost certain that it was all on Mavis's side, not sure how they managed to make it look like they had made a request they had not actually made, but that seems to be what they did.

As for Shiroe being detested, it is easier to manipulate people when you control how they feel about things, and Shiroe being detested, while Krusty is liked (kinda), makes it easier to force first impressions on things just by how and who they are brought by.


Poor Akatsuki, she needs a hug, or more importantly, she needs to go hug Shiroe and just talk things out.

(why do i keep writing more as moe and just as ust when writing about Akatsuki?)

edit-
and it is Shiroe being detested, not being detestable person, he is still helping people, just in a rather unpleasant and rude manner.

[Key Board]

Ah, so food tasted bland to people of the land, before the Catastrophe too..

man, how could they live like that?