2011-01-06, 12:59 | Link #21321 | |
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Join Date: May 2009
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Quote:
More to the point, Beatrice's motive never needed it. Which is the point I'm making here. It was never necessary. Necessity means the narrative cannot work without it. That's simply never been true. Throwing it in our faces does not suddenly make it necessary. It was a bad decision on his part that weakened the story. And, by this reasoning unto itself, Kanon himself was a bad decision. That's certainly not an argument I'd like to make, but it certainly seems like Ryukishi doesn't consider him to matter all that much.
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2011-01-06, 13:14 | Link #21326 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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But now I can add another catbox: Alive cat: Ryuukishi knows the solution to every riddle and has an answer to every question. Dead cat: Ryuukishi couldn't find a good way to fix every holes in his story and decided to create an inconclusive ending so that this embarrassing truth will never be exposed. The funny thing about this catbox is that if the dead cat is true, then this catbox is convenient for Ryuukishi. If the alive cat is the truth, then Ryuukishi his being masochist for letting an insulting doubt coexist with the truth of his genius.
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2011-01-06, 13:23 | Link #21327 |
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There are some interesting points you can make about the "cat box" metaphor (ignoring for a moment that it has nothing at all to do with the original thought experiment at this point). Discussion of these concepts could have significantly deepened the work. However, he only really scratched at the surface of this. For example, consider all of the following positions:
It would be very interesting to have known more, for example, about the camps the Witch Hunters of the future place themselves in, rather than sort of characterizing all of them as detrimental or destructive forces (though one can argue that).
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2011-01-06, 13:45 | Link #21328 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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I enjoyed reading your posts the most Jan-Poo and anticipated this kind of reaction. The beauty of this game was that it could bring forth all kinds of theories and discussions. That game held far greater value than the actual game itself. I think he left the ending open because he didn't want the discussions to end. He said many times that it's a thinking game. Thinking ends when the true answer is revealed.
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2011-01-06, 13:52 | Link #21329 |
Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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Sometimes I wish it was Renall who really wrote Umineko.
What a wonderful place would it be, a place where ideas and paradoxes fight for ultimate dominance as if in a Dostoevsky novel simultaneously interpreted by Bakhtin, and different genres parade to their death in the meat grinder of righteous criticism ala that famous Pink Floyd video.
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2011-01-06, 13:55 | Link #21330 |
Miss Kimi
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Residing as the 18th guest of Rokkenjima
Age: 28
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At first I wondered whether Ryu07 went a little too far and made up a bunch of things just to discover there's no way to explain it. Like the dead-cat thing Jan-Poo mentioned. I made those mistakes many times when I first starting writing fanfics.
But yeah, I really love mystery, I love watching crime shows (even if they're mediocre compared to the real world) and I love reading all of your theories and pitching in stuff myself. What got me upset at the end was over the fact they literally THROW IN YOUR FACE in the EP7 Tea Party that Kyrie and Rudolf are the culprits. Sure, the story never went the right way considering their fate at the end, but still! And then the most ultimate culprits for it all was Kyrie and Rudolf---WTF, wait a minute, didn't we just go through that possibility to torture Ange and it turned out to be TRUE?! Geez, I'm complaining too much here >_<. Anywho, they should've put George as the culprit in Ep7 Tea Party. Would've been hilarious and then we'd turn around and see who it really was xD
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2011-01-06, 14:31 | Link #21331 | |
The True Culprit
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2011-01-06, 14:36 | Link #21332 | |
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Plus he can be ambiguous and still give answers. "Answers" being the key there; for instance, he could use his answers to pare it down to a slim handful of interpretations and leave us to fight it out. "It's whatever you want it to be!" doesn't inspire debate, as has been said... it just sorta allows people to talk past each other forever.
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2011-01-06, 15:29 | Link #21335 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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It’s a doujin game but consider everything linked to this franchise. What if an entity linked to 07th Expansion, who relied on the game to have a somewhat satisfying conclusion, called his bluff? Some possibilities:
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2011-01-06, 15:43 | Link #21336 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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It is as if you told me that, I don't know, that Final Fantasy VII or MGS were better off not having an ending at all because when you reach the end the game ends... Well duh... of course, ending means that it stops there, but why is it wrong? Rather... I think it's a lot worse when there's no ending. A game that doesn't have an end isn't a good game in my book. A game needs to have an objective. If there is no end then there is no reachable objective. If there is no objective then there is no game. And then again why discussions about umineko must last eternally? They most definitely won't last eternally, so why you want them to die when the people will inevitably get tired of them? This is actually something I hate about western series. The logic of profit makes it so a series is (99% of the times) continued until people get so disgusted by it that they stop watching it. So what was originally a great show and could end and be remembered as a great show, ends up being remembered for how bad it became in the last episodes. This is what truly is sad. Lucky this won't happen with umineko, but I wonder why people find it so difficult to understand that if an author doesn't write the word end to his story, the story will almost certainly degrade and rot. To conclude you said that if umineko ends the thinking stops. That's not true. My mind isn't limited to umineko. If umineko ends I stop thinking about umineko and start thinking about something else. Maybe the next When They Cry series, for example, or something else completely. Why you want to think about the same thing for the rest of your life? I want to move on and get newer stimuli. As far as I'm concerned I already reached "my truth" on 95% of umineko. The only other truth I'm interested in is Ryuukishi's truth. At this point I have absolutely no interest in any other truth.
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2011-01-06, 16:01 | Link #21337 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Of course I didn't mean to stop thinking altogether.
But I understand your point. You understand his story but you want finality. You want to move on. I tried to solve it as a mystery just as hard as anyone else. Sorry, but I am just a different person than you. This story has already given enough to me. I'm satisfied with everything I got from it. More would be nice, but I don't need it.
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2011-01-06, 16:23 | Link #21339 | |
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Quote:
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2011-01-06, 16:29 | Link #21340 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Anyway part this stuff... I wonder.... Will Ryuukishi actually manage to never answer the many questions left unanswered? I'd be very surprised if he could. History teaches me that many authors who tried this in the past had to yield the the readers' requests. For example, thanx to Will (the user not the character) I came to know about a short story called "the mysterious card". The whole story revolves around this mysterious card with something written in French on it that would cause several people to react in an inexplicable manner. The main character, who can't read French, becomes therefore obsessed by it and tries to find out what's the meaning of those French words, but to no avail, because everyone that read them becomes shocked and refuses to tell him. This story had a great impact on the public because of the tension that it could create, but at the same time it made everyone become extremely curious about the content of the message. The problem is that logically speaking there is really nothing that could explain in a satisfying manner all those reactions, and the story was never meant to give an answer. In the end the author was somehow forced to write another story that would finally unveil the mystery. The problem is... it sucked. And I read it, it really sucks. it didn't really satisfy anyone. It sucked so much that another author decided to write his own solution. Another example I can make is the Dark Tower. Stephen King didn't really want to write an ending that would explain what Roland finds at the end of his journey. He made it quite clear. The book in his mind was supposed to end without a proper explanation. However probably because he already knew that his readers would be pissed about that, and maybe under his editor pressure, he ended up writing an ending, and it wasn't anything spectacular of course. So does this prove that it is actually better if an author doesn't write an ending? Well in my opinion it's bad either way you look at it. The best possible scenario is when an author can wrap everything up nicely in the end. There are cases when obviously the author can't. But the option of leaving an open ending doesn't really eliminates the flaw. At any rate what I wanted to show is how authors who tried this ended up being forced in writing an ending that of course couldn't be right. Ryuukishi has a strong feedback with his readers, so it's even less probable for him to avoid the questions. It is also inevitable that some questions will be asked in interviews, and at that point what will he answer? So far he could avoid them because the story wasn't finished but now he has no excuse. Well I don't know... let's say that I'm still waiting for at least a few additional answers, although I don't expect anything groundbreaking. Because if he really had an awesome answer, he would have wrote it. Quote:
As of now, I still have no clue on what makes the manga so much better to understand.... to understand what exactly?
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