Claymore Chapter 116

[Nixl]

Originally Posted by Shiek927

That pretty much says it all

Their arrogance, sheer ignorance, and wishy-washy methods have long begun to catch up with them.

It seems though their biggest problem right now is actually the splintering among them; the fact that they keep secrets and plans from eachother shows their destruction has already begun long before Miria showed up.

Actually, I never thought the Organization was arrogant so much as they were desperate to find a miracle. Consider that they went so far as to enslave an entire continent and its population for the sake of finding a miracle warrior. Also, remember Dae having to remind the fearful Mibs of their oath? The fact that Mibs are sworn by an oath to sacrifice themselves for anything that could possibly give them an advantage shows the extent they are willing to sacrifice themselves and others. If the organization is destroyed before it can find answers, probably so too will their country be destroyed.


If anything, Dae is arrogant, because he believes he is creating beauty within monsters.

Originally Posted by ronin myael

i'm not too fond of zombies.

Whaaaa, no love for zombies
Poor zombies, they never get a chance.

[Kinematics]

First, a repeat of the translation thoughts from the Translation thread:

Cassandra the Dust Eater vs. Cassandra the Enduring.

While I'm not entirely sure of the tense, the second kanji for Cassandra's name is 'eating', not 'eater'. Also has the sense of getting a bite on the hook if fishing. But why dirt? Is it fishing with dirt, or the sense that you thought you got a bite but pulled up only dirt (or a rubber boot in the more stereotypical American sense)?

Could be a two-fold meaning? "Eating dirt" as the phrase for defeat (if the colloquialism transfers between languages), while at the same time fishing and pulling up nothing? That is, every time you think you've got her (ie: got a bite to catch the fish) you pull up nothing but dirt?

Alternatively, looking at it with her as the subject rather than the object:

Given the supposed alternate description, "the one who have to/have already endured everything in life. It's also mean she has a really hard life.", one could also use that stereotypical 'fishing up a rubber boot' kind of meaning to indicate that no matter what she tries, she gets nothing but dirt. That would be more "dirt fisher" than "dirt eater". That would certainly indicate that "the Enduring" is a more apt term than "the Dust Eater".

I'm still inclined to think that the secondary near-meaning is intentional, though.

Now additional speculation:

However if we take her epithet as "the Enduring", that leaves us with two secondary issues to account for. The first is that Claymores with epithets that do not describe their powers usually have strange, unusual, and likely quite powerful abilities. However there's enough there to 'almost' describe her ability that I don't think that's the case.

Second is speculative... It seems she has a problem with "never quite managing to succeed". That is, she doesn't quite catch whatever she goes fishing for, and just has to endure until she somehow manages to succeed. To "never quite" succeed, but still manage to be #1.. The idea occurs to me that she may always be just barely stronger than her opponent. No matter who that opponent is.

That would be an amazingly aggravating power.

Suppose this is the case. Audrey right now thinks they have a chance because Cassandra appears to be the weakest of the three; she's just barely holding on against the three Claymores. Just push a little harder and they should win, right? However, they push a little harder, and Cassandra is still just barely out of reach. A little more, but they still can't quite take her down.

Come on, use some yoki! Not quite, but almost... Miria needs our help! Just kick this girl's ass and we can run over there and help her turn the tide! What is wrong with you people? Aren't you even trying?!

Frustration, anger, flare ups among not-quite-friends, internecine rivalry... She would be almost impossible to defeat, while at the same time subtly creating discord amongst those who fought her.

Likewise, why is she #1 vs Roxanne? Because she's just barely stronger...

Some technobabble to explain away how it works would be having her yoki resonate with her opponents', and that resonance boosts her power proportionally to the strength of the yoki she's resonating with.

[creb]

Originally Posted by Nixl

Actually, I never thought the Organization was arrogant so much as they were desperate to find a miracle.

I have a hard time buying the desperate angle. How many generations of warriors have they worked on so far? I know that's not necessarily a good indication of time, but I think even a conservative estimate would seem to indicate they've been working on this "desperate" plan for quite a while. I'd hardly call things desperate if they have that kind of time on their hands. ;p

Now, I'm also keenly aware that it's a fictional story, and things don't necessarily have to make sense, so I'm totally open to the idea that they are actually desperate for plot reasons. Just saying that if one doesn't use the deus ex machina that is plot advancement, the desperation concept makes no sense.

[Fermat]

Originally Posted by Kinematics

First, a repeat of the translation thoughts from the Translation thread:




Now additional speculation:

However if we take her epithet as "the Enduring", that leaves us with two secondary issues to account for. The first is that Claymores with epithets that do not describe their powers usually have strange, unusual, and likely quite powerful abilities. However there's enough there to 'almost' describe her ability that I don't think that's the case.

Second is speculative... It seems she has a problem with "never quite managing to succeed". That is, she doesn't quite catch whatever she goes fishing for, and just has to endure until she somehow manages to succeed. To "never quite" succeed, but still manage to be #1.. The idea occurs to me that she may always be just barely stronger than her opponent. No matter who that opponent is.

That would be an amazingly aggravating power.

Suppose this is the case. Audrey right now thinks they have a chance because Cassandra appears to be the weakest of the three; she's just barely holding on against the three Claymores. Just push a little harder and they should win, right? However, they push a little harder, and Cassandra is still just barely out of reach. A little more, but they still can't quite take her down.

Come on, use some yoki! Not quite, but almost... Miria needs our help! Just kick this girl's ass and we can run over there and help her turn the tide! What is wrong with you people? Aren't you even trying?!

Frustration, anger, flare ups among not-quite-friends, internecine rivalry... She would be almost impossible to defeat, while at the same time subtly creating discord amongst those who fought her.

Likewise, why is she #1 vs Roxanne? Because she's just barely stronger...

Some technobabble to explain away how it works would be having her yoki resonate with her opponents', and that resonance boosts her power proportionally to the strength of the yoki she's resonating with.

Interesting idea—a sort of yoki synchronization utilized on oneself, but always with the slightest edge over the opponent, perhaps coupled with extraordinary resilience that almost always ensures victory in the end. So she's basically looking weak right now because the three single-digits are comparatively weak. A frustrating yet ultimately deadly technique to have. I'm quite certain there's still an upper limit, though. Imagine if she could elevate herself to, say, Priscilla's level just like that.

[MalakTawus]

@creb

I'd hardly call things desperate if they have that kind of time on their hands. ;p

Probably you are right,but tbh we don't really know how is going on the war on the continent,so if (for example) the org is slowly losing territories (remember that this is not a modern-type war, those kind of wars between "empires" could last decades,even centuries maybe.....) than they "desperately" need some kind of solution to invert the tendency of the war.
If you know for certain that a catastrophe will happen in 150 years from now,wouldn't you be desperate to find a solution?Or you will be fine just 'because you still have 150 years of time?

What Nixl said actually makes sense to me: if the org feels that it needs to transform a whole little-continent/island as their personal laboratory to find a solution, well imo this is quite a clear indication that they are very worried about the outcome of the actual war,of course this is just speculation, but i'd say it's not so bad (at least for me).

[rafael1932]

I don’t think that the org are a bunch of idiots. They are still alive after so much crimes and that alone proves otherwise. About raftela I have to say this – fool me 1, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. This means that it was only a matter of time raftaela betrays the org again. Also if we go by the story itself miria should be dead right now after all is 1 number 1 ( miria ) versus 3. I was expecting miria to convert them by saying the secret but does not matter, the org ( that is what we are talking about) has the upper hand by controlling those 3 guys. So, no, it was not a stupid move by the org when they decided to kill raftela. I don’t think that the org made stupid moves until now too

Also, we cant forget that org is a research lab, only that. after you made your research you have to clean up things and do things again in order to progress

[FormerAbyssalone]

Well as it stands the 3 #1s have yet to release their yoki yet. So we're about to see how powerful the #1s are!

[Fenrir_valindri]

Well, Hysteria is pulling off a Phantom-style technique (one more advanced then Miria's) so its possible she is using some small amount of Yoki. We also didn't see what Roxanne did to the twins.

[FormerAbyssalone]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

Well, Hysteria is pulling off a Phantom-style technique (one more advanced then Miria's) so its possible she is using some small amount of Yoki. We also didn't see what Roxanne did to the twins.

True true, But Hysteria has yet to release the amout Miria is, so we'll see how crazy strong she and the others are! I can't imagine hysteria's technique at 30%.

[Fenrir_valindri]

It most likely isn't, but I imagine she will be forced to use Yoki now that Miria is using it.
Even though I personally think its a bad example; take Clare vs Raphaela, she was easily overwhelmed by Raphaela at first, but as soon as Clare used her Yoki she overwhelmed her. I expect Hysteria to have a much harder time against Miria now that she is going all out.

[FormerAbyssalone]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It most likely isn't, but I imagine she will be forced to use Yoki now that Miria is using it.
Even though I personally think its a bad example; take Clare vs Raphaela, she was easily overwhelmed by Raphaela at first, but as soon as Clare used her Yoki she overwhelmed her. I expect Hysteria to have a much harder time against Miria now that she is going all out.

Alas it all comes down to next month.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It most likely isn't, but I imagine she will be forced to use Yoki now that Miria is using it.
Even though I personally think its a bad example; take Clare vs Raphaela, she was easily overwhelmed by Raphaela at first, but as soon as Clare used her Yoki she overwhelmed her. I expect Hysteria to have a much harder time against Miria now that she is going all out.

Raphaela vs Claire isn't agreat example since that wasn't a simple matter of using or not using yoki, Claire won because she used a new uber-powerful technique (QS)..........instead i doubt that Miria or Hysteria will show us new techniques even if they release yoki......

[irvinethearcher]

i agree with kinematics and others that cassandra is probably stronger than those three
think. Dae didn't choose cassandra the dust eater for nothing.
The question is, what is her power. I think she is an incredibly strong defensive type way stronger than galatea with even better regenerative abilities than deneve. This would explain her nickname.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

It does make it extremely difficult to block or counter, since you aren't sure if the enemy is still attacking or if she has already cut you. Even Miria ended up hitting the "phantom" instead of Hysteria.

Seriously? You don't feel that your bowels are getting out your stomach?

Because the attack is instantaneous I don't see how someone might be confused, especially since the afterimage is in you, so you know it's just a phantom.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Originally Posted by MalakTawus

Raphaela vs Claire isn't agreat example since that wasn't a simple matter of using or not using yoki, Claire won because she used a new uber-powerful technique (QS)..........instead i doubt that Miria or Hysteria will show us new techniques even if they release yoki......

No, it isn't a great example because Raphaela herself never used Yoki and it was a mental battle.
The Flash Sword for all intents and purposes is just a less accurate/physically strong but significantly faster version of the Wind Cutter that requires the use of Yoki.

It is effectively Miria's old Phantom (faster but more Yoki intensive) to her new Phantom (slower but yoki-less).

Originally Posted by Gooral

Seriously? You don't feel that your bowels are getting out your stomach?

Considering we are operating under shounen laws, yes. People have delayed reactions to serious injuries all the time.

[Gooral]

Originally Posted by Fenrir_valindri

(...)
The Flash Sword for all intents and purposes is just a less accurate/physically strong but significantly faster version of the Wind Cutter that requires the use of Yoki. (...)

I agree with Malak on this. Clare's version was weaker because she didn't have as much youki at her disposal (at the time) as Flora. She had half of what Irene had and because of a close fight it's certain Irene would trash Flora even if Flora released as much as she could without going over her limit (Flora went at least 30% during her fight with Clare and enhanced WC as much as she could). And now Clare surely has more youki at her disposal (her partial awakening has surely triggered it if only for a fact that Miata could sense Clare is at least in the same league as Miria).
And while Flora could make more precise cuts Clare could do something like this. In other words she had QS combined with Shadow Hunter/Chaser



We don't even know what Flora meant by precision. If she meant more even cuts and that she could repeat exact same kind of attack all the time then it's nothing special. In a fight it wouldn't make much of a difference. Heck, even strength wouldn't make much of a difference (although in this case I don't really see how Clare's cuts can be faster but weaker but let's forget about laws of physics for a second) since they weren't using hammers to hammer a stake but swords to cut their flesh and it doesn't require much of a force of a sword-wielder to make a cut.

Considering we are operating under shounen laws, yes. People have delayed reactions to serious injuries all the time.

With the amount of blood that gushes out I don't see how you could have a delayed reaction.

[Fenrir_valindri]

Your comparing Clare to Flora and Irene to Flora, but what it comes down to is the techniques, not their individual power. I'm quite sure that Clare was closer to Flora then Irene back then anyway. It is obvious that Irene would defeat Flora, she was simply a much stronger warrior, but that doesn't necessarily mean her technique was outright better.

If Clare has grown strong enough to use it as well as Irene did (if not better) then its simply because she has grown stronger, not because the Flash Sword is outright superior. Though your quite right that the force of the blows aren't the most important thing when considering a high-speed technique (under shounen laws at least).

---

It happens all the time in Claymore, look at when Teresa cut down her executioners, or even when Miria was fighting the Organization's warriors. People don't react to their injuries immediately in manga-land.

It happens in real life somewhat often as well in concern to gunfights, you hear people who survive gunshot wounds say they didn't even realize they were hit at first.

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by Gooral

her partial awakening has surely triggered it if only for a fact that Miata could sense Clare is at least in the same league as Miria

What i find even more important is that priscilla could sense clare and miria's yoki. She said: The last two lights are way stronger than the others. In the end only one light remained. I am asking myself if miria or clare went down in the end first at pieta.

In short: Clare was after her partial awakening yoki wise nearly equal to miria it seems. Any corrections?
Or does someone think priscilla's measurement is incorrect?

[Fenrir_valindri]

I always thought so myself. Both Priscilla 7 years ago and Miata currently have grouped Clare and Miria as "strong," so I always assumed their Yoki was of similar power after Clare's 4-limb awakening.

[irvinethearcher]

What i don't understand is how priscilla could measure them. miria and clare must have already used up a lot of their yoki so i am doubtful that this estimation of priscilla is valid. And how could clare have more yoki after she partially awakened than before? i mean she used energy how can it be more afterwards?
Or is it that there are huge reserves laying dormant inside her.