Kill La Kill - Episode 13 Discussion / Poll

[apotheosis]

She could be the top boss, or it could be a duo fight.

Satsuki vs Mommy

Ryuko vs Nui

Nudist Beach assists?

[Dextro]

I really wasn't expecting THAT of all things to happen. Yeah, I was expecting something to de-power the main character early on in the show but now I was thinking that it would be relatively safe until the end. That teaches me to doubt this team. In Imaishi we trust

I also love how they are making Satsuki out to not be clearly a "good guy" working under the "bad guys". She, to me, looks more like a Lawful neutral character that just happens to have her mothers objectives work somewhat in line with her own. For now I wouldn't really bet on any outcome. I'm pretty sure she will go up against her mother but I'm not feeling like I can pin down how all the factions will stand in the end of the story. Loving it so far.

[immblueversion]

Might I also add I loved the twist on the typical "get the hero out of a funk in one episode" plot, because it only made things worse for the hero and it gives something to build from.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Dextro

I also love how they are making Satsuki out to not be clearly a "good guy" working under the "bad guys". She, to me, looks more like a Lawful neutral character that just happens to have her mothers objectives work somewhat in line with her own. For now I wouldn't really bet on any outcome. I'm pretty sure she will go up against her mother but I'm not feeling like I can pin down how all the factions will stand in the end of the story. Loving it so far.

I don't know that I'd even consider her lawful neutral... Lawful, certainly, but she's arguably done more evil things so far than good. I think what's confusing people is that her interaction with Ryuko (and by extension Mako) is her Pet the Dog trope and since that's a focus of the series, it skews the perception of normal.

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

I don't know that I'd even consider her lawful neutral... Lawful, certainly, but she's arguably done more evil things so far than good. I think what's confusing people is that her interaction with Ryuko (and by extension Mako) is her Pet the Dog trope and since that's a focus of the series, it skews the perception of normal.

Well, lawful neutral in the sense of, she does things that may be evil, but not for the sake of being evil. She may even have a relatively good purpose, but she goes on about it in harsh ways because that's how this world works. She surely looks like an utilitarian, and someone who primarily cares about getting shit done. Without a doubt, she doesn't care much for "good" - but neither she does for "evil". So Lawful Neutral for me cuts it. On this note:

Ryuko is Chaotic Neutral
Mako is Chaotic Good
Gamagoori is the very personalization of Lawful; I'd argue he's a Lawful Neutral too seeing how he can be good or cruel towards the same people depending on the context. He bears no grudge against Mako or even Ryuko on a personal level, he's just doing his job.
Nui is as Chaotic Evil as they get.
Ragyo imho is going to end up either Lawful Evil or Evil Neutral. We know too little about her though yet.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Ragyo imho is going to end up either Lawful Evil or Evil Neutral. We know too little about her though yet.

How can one even...

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

Well, lawful neutral in the sense of, she does things that may be evil, but not for the sake of being evil. She may even have a relatively good purpose, but she goes on about it in harsh ways because that's how this world works. She surely looks like an utilitarian, and someone who primarily cares about getting shit done. Without a doubt, she doesn't care much for "good" - but neither she does for "evil". So Lawful Neutral for me cuts it. On this note:

Ryuko is Chaotic Neutral
Mako is Chaotic Good
Gamagoori is the very personalization of Lawful; I'd argue he's a Lawful Neutral too seeing how he can be good or cruel towards the same people depending on the context. He bears no grudge against Mako or even Ryuko on a personal level, he's just doing his job.
Nui is as Chaotic Evil as they get.
Ragyo imho is going to end up either Lawful Evil or Evil Neutral. We know too little about her though yet.

I will agree that Satsuki is far more Lawful than she is Evil.

Sanageyama: True Neutral (just likes to fight)
Inumuta: Neutral Evil
Nonon: Neutral Evil (maybe True Neutral but overly focused on Satsuki, who makes her do evil things—haven't seen enough to say for sure, but doesn't seem to be overly lawful or chaotic)

[playmaker2k]

I'd say Satsuki is Lawful Good, but disguised as Lawful Evil to hide her true motives.

I think she sees Ryuuko as the one person who challenges her views and keeps her from becoming like her mother.

Ryuuko "humbles" Satsuki with her brash words and her disregard for Satsuki's ranking system.

Nobody should be allowed to talk to Satsuki that way, but Ryuuko does. She won't admit it, but Satsuki sees her as an equal or a possible ally in the future.

[~Yami~]

so right now Ryuko is on losing streak...

I thought Satsuki got some kind of respect toward Ryuko.. but seeing her taking most of Kamui scraps means she didn't consider Ryuko as potential threat or rival anymore

can't get enough of Harime Nui.... Yukarin's voice <3

[ZabiLegacy]

Coming out of this episode, I loved it alot. That said, I think alot of that love is simply just excitement for next episode. the prospect of Mako going to war, while Ryuko getting the biggest shock to her system of the entire series too much too miss. I know this episode was supposed to be the one that set the new status quo for the second cour, but let's just say I agree with the decision wait an episode or two before changing the OP. (I hear the change will happen soon).

As for what I thought about the ideas of this episode? Well, I believe that Rainbow Road's speech this episode might just be the most interesting speech in an anime in a long time. I mean, there is left field and then there is left field.

[GDiddy]

As soon as the newspaper guy appeared, I figured it was Nui just because he kept being shown with one eye. Also knew that Ryuko would be saved at the last moment...but not by Satsuki.

Anyway, Satsuki continues to be interesting. I love everyone(especially Mako and Sexy Sensei), but these last few episodes got me more interested in Satsuki's story for now. She's definitely one of the more intriguing villians in recent anime anyway...and I like the Four Devas. Gama/Mako =OTP. Now I wonder what she's going to do with Senketsu.

As for Ryuko.....I'm sure she'll bounce back somehow. It's powerup time.

[Silverwyrm]

problem i always see when people try tag alignments on characters is good= heroes evil = villains. Satsuki could easily be "lawful Evil" and turn out to not be a villain despite that. Doesn't need to be so black and white >_>

Anyways, my prediction is given the look of the squares, Ryuko's gonna need to figure out how to defeat uniforms and take back the pieces to remake senketsu.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

problem i always see when people try tag alignments on characters is good= heroes evil = villains. Satsuki could easily be "lawful Evil" and turn out to not be a villain despite that. Doesn't need to be so black and white >_>

Well, Chaotic Evil pretty much always means, if not the villain, at least a villain, unless it's a series a fair bit darker than this one. Antisocial behavior is pretty much included in the definition, after all. Lawful Evil can be the protagonist, if you have the right setup. Satsuki's the deuteragonist of the series already, so Lawful Evil is certainly possible for her.

Originally Posted by Silverwyrm

Anyways, my prediction is given the look of the squares, Ryuko's gonna need to figure out how to defeat uniforms and take back the pieces to remake senketsu.

Remaking is no problem. She's in Honnouji with a skilled life fiber manipulator (Iori) and at least a quarter of Senketsu (Inumuta's part). Once she gathers those and gets at least a partial Senketsu made, Senketsu himself should be able to reform the rest once they're recovered, like he was able to reform his sliced off collars in the fights with Sanageyama. The problem is convincing Iori to go along with it (fighter or not, he's still at least a Two-Star, while Ryuko will be presumably unpowered), and likely defeating Inumuta as well while depowered. It's possible doing the latter will cow Iori into helping her, or at least awaken his inner curious mad scientist. They've had no interaction so far, so he might even fall for her when confronted by her, which could be humorous...

Oh, and of course there'll be the little matter of defeating (at least) three better-than-three-star SenGoku Uniforms with an incomplete (or no) Senketsu. No pressure...

[Gan_HOPE326]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Well, Chaotic Evil pretty much always means, if not the villain, at least a villain, unless it's a series a fair bit darker than this one.

A.k.a. Hellsing Ultimate .

[Triple_R]

What about Satsuki makes people think "evil"?

She can be rather harsh, but she doesn't strike me as sadistic. In fact, she's displayed a fair bit of mercy in recent episodes.

Her plans of conquest certainly have a touch of megalomania to them, but in Satsuki's mind, this could very well be for the greater good (rather than, say, just personal self-aggrandizement, which would at least border on evil).

Regardless of whether or not Satsuki is an antagonist or a villain, she strikes me as more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil.

[immblueversion]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What about Satsuki makes people think "evil"?

She can be rather harsh, but she doesn't strike me as sadistic. In fact, she's displayed a fair bit of mercy in recent episodes.

Her plans of conquest certainly have a touch of megalomania to them, but in Satsuki's mind, this could very well be for the greater good (rather than, say, just personal self-aggrandizement, which would at least border on evil).

Regardless of whether or not Satsuki is an antagonist or a villain, she strikes me as more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil.

Well, she's definitely the antagonist in that she directly opposes Ryuko, the protagonist. Which is funny, because I've brought up several times how Ryuko seems to have traits of a classic villain while still remaining a hero, just as Satsuki has traits of a classic hero while remaining a villain. If this story were told from Satsuki's perspective, Ryuko can easily be seen as the bad guy who barges in and messes everything up. And when she gets cornered or outmatched, she flees like a dog and cries, "We'll meet again, Satsuki Kiryuin!" (That's no exaggeration, she really does that.) Hell, episode 6 followed your standard shonen anime protagonist formula this series was privy to using for the first few episodes--hero fights bad guy, gets outsmarted by an underhanded tactic, bounces back even stronger with a new technique--except it's Sanageyama filling the role as the protagonist and Ryuko the antagonist in that episode.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326

A.k.a. Hellsing Ultimate .

I'd say Alucard is more Neutral Evil than Chaotic. He's quite chaotic in battle, but it was his predictability (a lawful trait) that ultimately brought him down. Twice.

That's a pretty close example, though.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What about Satsuki makes people think "evil"?

She can be rather harsh, but she doesn't strike me as sadistic. In fact, she's displayed a fair bit of mercy in recent episodes.

Her plans of conquest certainly have a touch of megalomania to them, but in Satsuki's mind, this could very well be for the greater good (rather than, say, just personal self-aggrandizement, which would at least border on evil).

Regardless of whether or not Satsuki is an antagonist or a villain, she strikes me as more Lawful Neutral than Lawful Evil.

She's done nothing "good" though to this point. Her interest in Ryuko (and by extension Mako) is evident, so showing "mercy" to them could be purely selfish. Same with her Four Devas. They've more than shown their worth, and she didn't expect them to defeat Ryuko anyway, so why would she dump such useful subordinates? All that proves is that she's loyal and not stupid. Neither of which precludes Evil, especially since she's clearly Lawful.

Good + Neutral + Evil = Neutral

Neutral + Evil = Evil

Originally Posted by immblueversion

Well, she's definitely the antagonist in that she directly opposes Ryuko, the protagonist.

At this point. But it seems fairly obvious that she also—and not too surreptitiously—is opposing Ragyo, a clear Big Bad who Ryuko will be facing as soon as she finds out Ragyo exists, and that Nui works for her. That's an obvious enough development that I already consider Satsuki at least a deuteragonist (if not secondary protagonist), whatever her moral alignment.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

At this point. But it seems fairly obvious that she also—and not too surreptitiously—is opposing Ragyo, a clear Big Bad who Ryuko will be facing as soon as she finds out Ragyo exists, and that Nui works for her. That's an obvious enough development that I already consider Satsuki at least a deuteragonist (if not secondary protagonist), whatever her moral alignment.

Seems to me like there's a catch here though. Ragyou/Revocs' philosophy seems explicitly based on the premise of humanity as sinful pigs who need to be dominated for their own good. Revocs' domination theme mirrors Satsuki's, but if we look at Satsuki's subtler characterization it seems to suggest that Satsuki believes/wants to believe in the underlying strength of human will (reference: Mako's episode and the interpretation Satsuki presented for the meaning of clothing). If we understand Satsuki's resistance to Ragyou as based on a resistance to Ragyou's "humans are pigs" philosophy, then ultimately what Satsuki might in fact be resisting is Revocs' domination/order. Which, depending on the degree to which Satsuki pulls the other way, might make Satsuki's 'Lawful' alignment a false categorization. On the other hand, after this episode, I do have a strong consideration of Ragyou as 'Lawful' now.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

She's done nothing "good" though to this point.

If you take a cynical view of her, sure.

But you can easily flip it around.

If you take a less cynical view of her, what evil has she done?

She's pretty harsh in her seemingly meritocratic worldview, and she certainly likes being in a position of power and control, but these two elements alone don't constitute "evil" in my view. Rather, they constitute "lawful", if anything.

Given the lack of clear-cut good and clear-cut evil, I would think she fits "Lawful Neutral" the best. At least for now, until the show reveals more about what Satsuki's ultimate goals really, truly are.

[Solace]

Her biggest "crime" has been the enforcement of a rigid class system in the school and surrounding area based on performance through the star uniform system. This is one of the reasons why Mako's Fight Club episode was deeper than it looked (I mean it was more than a "power of friendship episode"). It gave insight into Satsuki's views, yes, but it also showed the power of class on the student population and their families. It's a bit cliche since Mako rejects it and subjects herself and her family back to their lower standing...yet at the same time, there is a clear difference in how Satsuki and the student council treat her in later episodes.

It's a criticism/reflection of the current human social structures. Not terribly mind blowing, but it helped build to things like the meeting between Satsuki and her mother, among other things.

And yes, I still think Mako's ground punch in that episode was foreshadowing.