2009-09-09, 20:08 | Link #661 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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More specifically I think it's something regarding HP (the guy in the circle that runs the poll) and some website maintenance things he has to work out. Given all the downtime and some of the non-update periods they've had lately it's not too surprising.
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2009-09-09, 20:45 | Link #663 |
(☞゚∀゚)☞ロンパアアアア!!
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More specifically, HP is the shortened of Homepage, which mean Ryuukishi's 07th-Expansion site. It is under maintenance right now (knowing the word "maintenance" in personal use/doujin-tasks uses Japanese sites, it should take around more than 4 months-6 months for God Knows Why.), so he can't open the poll in sometime.
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2009-09-09, 23:08 | Link #664 |
Kupo
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Sleeping
Age: 32
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Ahhh, that's why it didn't make total sense XD. Silly me. I kept thinking HP was a person (most likely mixed it up with BT, who actually is a person on their team...and I think he's even the webmaster too ).
The site is rather confusing so it's good that it's getting an update . |
2009-09-10, 06:52 | Link #665 |
I want to believe.
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Age: 33
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Regarding Erika...
Spoiler for EP5:
I apologize if that doesn't make a lick of sense, just something I wanted to post before I headed to bed. Oh, and one more question. Spoiler for EP5:
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2009-09-10, 07:06 | Link #666 | |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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Quote:
The revelation of the stakes isn't much of a revelation as it comes out more as Bern and Erika deriding the stakes. There is probably some truth to what Dlanor and Erika's research about their origins. I f you want to know more... Spoiler for Stake's Origins (?):
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2009-09-10, 07:43 | Link #667 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
So in a few words, from the pow of the common reader of the mystery novel of that time, it was unthinkable that an english man could perform such atrocious murders and the likes. So the "chinaman" was a literary device to appease the anxiety of the readers when faced to such scenes. By putting the blame on the "chinaman", there was a naive attempt to "explain" the violence. People would read the novel and think: "Of course the villain is a foreigner so that's why!" This is what the 5th rule was really trying to fight. It wasn't a problem of consistency (if so why there isn't a rule for anachronisms as well?), it was an attempt to remove this latent xenophobia in the mystery novels. Ironically this really fits with Battler's situation, because Battler didn't want to believe that the culprit was one of the people that are close to him. So he'd rather explain the crimes with an unknown stranger.
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2009-09-10, 13:06 | Link #669 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
Here's the full text of the rule, taken word for word: Spoiler for knox's 5th:
As you can see, there's no reason that this has to be a universal rule and apply anywhere outside Knox's original place and time. Since Ryuukishi didn't include it in the game, we can only assume that he isn't viewing it as a universal rule either. Therefore, discussion about the 5th commandment seems almost pointless to me...
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2009-09-10, 14:58 | Link #670 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well of course, it is a fact that Ryukishi completely omitted this rule, so there's no reason to make theories based on this. It isn't just that he forgot to mention it, the full list of the "revised" knox rules are available in the TIPS, but on number 5 he blatantly wrote "omitted".
What I was arguing so far is that I didn't kinda like this choice, if he really didn't like the 5th rule he could have come up with a revision of the 5th rule in a way that could be compatible with his story (it isn't so difficult). Showing a full list of the ten Knox rules, with a blank line on the fifth one was kinda lame imho.
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2009-09-10, 19:13 | Link #671 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
He's still using Knox's Decalogue (this is the name Knox used and doesn't work if you shorten it to nine), but he isn't applying all of them. And he doesn't have to. Saying a rule doesn't apply in a certain situation is a perfectly reasonable interpretation.
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2009-09-10, 22:26 | Link #672 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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As for Erika, I think she may be similar to Ange. Bern may have been searching in the kakeras, realised Erika was close to Rokkenjima during those days, and then she contacted her. If we go by Erika's personality, Bern probably just told her about the situation (a mystery, a challenge), and then told her she'd make her a Witch of Truth, if she managed to deny the witch. That'd may explain why she was conveniently wearing a swimsuit when she fell of the ship she was on.
As for why she isn't denying Bern and Lambda, they seem to be her benefactors. If anything has been told/shown to us already, is that you usually don't go against those people you like, or those who are on your side, etc... That, and she was contracted only to deny Beatrice.
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2009-09-10, 22:52 | Link #673 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
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I think that the 5th rule would throw the witch side in a corner, because it means a foreigner (not one of the 17) is doing the killing. That's like giving up.
I did like that piece on why the 5th rule was written though, thanks. I haven't read many english mystery novels, and didn't notice the chinaman until this thread. But still, there aren't that many good tv mysteries right now either. (Personally thinks Perry Mason was the best, and that's black and white) I mean in the tv shows, there is only about 5 suspects or so, but it's easy to figure out who done it, the interesting part is the way they catch them... Hey Mao, if you are slightly less stressed by school, mind posting the rest of the tea party? (Saturday has come and gone already, did you forget?) Thanks! Of course, if you're really busy, I can wait. School first, right? |
2009-09-11, 07:33 | Link #674 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
The second rule states that the supernatural is forbidden. So any claim that Ryukishi didn't include the 5th rule because it would corner the witch side totally pales in front of the original second rule which clearly states that a crime can't be performed through magic. But in Umineko it became: "the detective cannot use magic". I fail to see this as a "shortened version", to me it completely changed its meaning. Actually put like this it just looks like a slightly different version of the sixth rule. Then there's the 3rd rule which said that "no more than one secret passage is allowed", and in Umineko became "all secret passages are forbidden". I quote Klash btw http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...25#post2590525 Quote:
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Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2009-09-11 at 09:08. |
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2009-09-11, 11:42 | Link #675 | |||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Quote:
Quote:
Spoiler for extra bit:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
The point here is that Ryuukishi has actually taken the same meaning but used it for a different purpose. If 'Watson' "must not conceal thoughts that pass through his mind", then this implies that he is allowed to show his opinion to the reader at times. Again, I don't think that he just removed the 5th commandment. I think he used a (very valid) interpretation of it which rendered it not applicable to this story. He didn't want to include it in the tip because that would just confuse the reader unnecessarily (assuming that he doesn't plan to make use of the 5th).
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-09-11 at 12:04. |
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2009-09-11, 12:00 | Link #676 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
Quote:
To be completely blunt, I wonder if the way to the hidden gold really doesn't entail any secret door. So in the end ironically the idea that no secret passage exist, when it is practically certain there is an underground tunnel which entrance is unknown to most people, sounds unreasonable in this context. Quote:
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2009-09-11, 12:43 | Link #677 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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I think you've made my point for me.
All three of your counter-arguments are based on your interpretation of Knox's rules. Unless you are trying to argue that your interpretation alone is accurate, then you have to admit Ryuukishi has the leeway to make the decisions he did. Knox's own words: Quote:
Also, the fact that Umineko takes place in a completely different setting means that you're forced to interpret the rules a little. To do otherwise would be to follow the letter of the law while not the spirit. Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
Spoiler for size:
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Last edited by chronotrig; 2009-09-11 at 13:01. |
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2009-09-11, 13:00 | Link #678 | ||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Quote:
Even if you say that maybe Ryukishi got the essence of the knox rules, by the same logic you used here neither you nor Ryukishi can "argue that your interpretation alone is accurate". Which is why in doubt Ryukishi should have sticked with the original, however he deliberately changed them. As for why he did that, whether because he didn't care too much about strictly sticking with the original (as I say), or because he genuinely thought his own interpretation was correct, there is no way to prove it. However I prefer to stick with the first one, because the second sounds a little arrogant to me. Quote:
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2009-09-11, 13:17 | Link #680 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
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Good, it looks like we're in agreement on that point then.
My point was never that your opinion was wrong, but that suggesting that Ryuukishi's decisions were "sloppy" (I know, not your word, but your posts strongly implied this) is unfair. This isn't a question about being sloppy or not. It's a genuine difference in opinion. Rules tend to mean things, so adding to Knox's rules just to make a tip look prettier wouldn't help the story. If Ryuukishi felt that the fifth rule shouldn't be included in his story, then removing it from the tips is a legitimate decision.
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