[Manga] Chapter 409 Discussion

[kk2extreme]

why does a cool guy like 8 tails is gonna be captured by sasuke again? It seems like the manga has tendency of introduce some kool characters and kill them off later, e.g. jiraya, itachi, haku, etc.

[Freya]

Originally Posted by Lady Rave

Quick question, does Senjutsu just mean 'Frog Arts'?

Yeah basically lol. Well it's like using ninjutsu but with nature "power" so it's alot more powerful.

[Nintendo]

Originally Posted by kk2extreme

why does a cool guy like 8 tails is gonna be captured by sasuke again? It seems like the manga has tendency of introduce some kool characters and kill them off later, e.g. jiraya, itachi, haku, etc.

im sure he wont go without a fight.....and the way he wears his glasses.....maybe he is semi blind? so the sharigan wont work on him?

i dont know, wishful thinking lol

[Sakuranbo]

Originally Posted by Nintendo

im sure he wont go without a fight.....and the way he wears his glasses.....maybe he is semi blind? so the sharigan wont work on him?

i dont know, wishful thinking lol

Someone was talking about audio genjutsu a while back on this thread and it made me think, "too bad Sasuke doesn't play the flute like Tayuya."

[Struggler]

Originally Posted by Lady Rave

Quick question, does Senjutsu just mean 'Frog Arts'?

It means "sage/hermit arts/techniques."

[james0246]

Originally Posted by KurayamiLeader

Someone was talking about audio genjutsu a while back on this thread and it made me think, "too bad Sasuke doesn't play the flute like Tayuya."

Didn't you know, the Sharingan can produce sound waves to catch you in a Sound genjutsu; it can make scents and then blow them towards your nose, catching you in a Smell genjutsu; it can touch you (it will literally jump out and land on you catching you in a Touch genjutsu); and worst of all, it can shot liquids (from the tear ducts) into your mouth that will cast a Taste genjutsus on you; and it can also make julienned fries...

Don't doubt the Sharingan...

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by james3wk

The Curse Seal seems to be based on or at least is more similiar in design to the 8 Gates Technique (specifically in the respect that both increases one's ability to utilize their full supply of natural abilities (nothing is added, nothing is made, it is solely restricted by the body's total abilities and nothing else)).

I don't think that was the case. If there was no external input, then there would not be a need to make a research on Juugo. So, if the seal is similar to how a virus acts, then the seal might have brought something with it. Such as causing some kind of chemical reaction within the body to trigger such change. Not a natural removal of a inner gate or so. Not even a forced move of a gate. The reaction in cursed seal is at the level of creating additional body parts. Do you really think you can achieve this in a natural way? I highly doubt, especially if you are not originally and genetically modified to achieve that.

Senjutsu though, as Gamakichi described, is the icing on top of a cake. It is not an actual part of your chakra supply, rather it is a completely outside source that is seemlessly intergarted with one's own chakra to create a unique combination of different chakras.

I don't know if you noticed but the example you gave does not match with the end result. You are talking about creating a unique kind of chakra, but, the icing on a cake does not alter the structure of the cake. Though, I also Naruto will need a more detailed example than that. Anyways, the end result is a different chakra. And, that is also what you get when you activate the cursed seal.

There are no similarities between those two descriptions of the Curse Seal or Senjutsu (the only similarity is the fact that they both use the term "death", and, as I already described, the use of the word death is a misnomer), rather Senjutsu sounds most similiar to what we know about Jinchuriki (which makes sense considering that Naruto is a Jinchuriki and he is also learning Senjutsu), where one person draws on a foreign power to increase their own strength, etc., only Senjutsu sounds like the positive version of the comparison, much the same as the 8 Gates Techniques sounds like the more positive version of the comparisson between the Curse Seal and the 8 Gates Technique.

I am omitting the part where you don't want to see the similarities that I see, but in any case, they were provided in the above parts. So, moving onto the latter parts...

Since you tried to provide a similarity between Jinchuuriki power and Senjutsu, let me also provide a difference. To use Senjutsu, you need to use your own chakra to achieve the desired result (based on the real Fukasaku explanation, not a Gamakiched version of it). To use Jinchuuriki power, you don't need to have your own chakra armed and ready. You can directly use the foreign chakra. After all, it is chakra by itself, not some kind of energy to mold with your own energy to convert it into usable chakra. Anyways, that is what I understood from it.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by james3wk

Didn't you know, the Sharingan can produce sound waves to catch you in a Sound genjutsu; it can make scents and then blow them towards your nose, catching you in a Smell genjutsu; it can touch you (it will literally jump out and land on you catching you in a Touch genjutsu); and worst of all, it can shot liquids (from the tear ducts) into your mouth that will cast a Taste genjutsus on you; and it can also make julienned fries...

Don't doubt the Sharingan...

Also Itachi could cast genjutsu by just pointing perhaps sasuke has this skill as well

[Sazelyt]

Pointing finger was Itachi's speciality, Sasuke needs to choose somewhere else. Maybe the tongue, if he can imitate Orochimaru.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

I don't think that was the case. If there was no external input, then there would not be a need to make a research on Juugo. So, if the seal is similar to how a virus acts, then the seal might have brought something with it. Such as causing some kind of chemical reaction within the body to trigger such change. Not a natural removal of a inner gate or so. Not even a forced move of a gate. The reaction in cursed seal is at the level of creating additional body parts. Do you really think you can achieve this in a natural way? I highly doubt, especially if you are not originally and genetically modified to achieve that.

I never claimed that it was wholly natural (as you said, people do not generally sprout extra limbs, let alone wings ), rather I said that it was more similiar in design to the 8 Gates Techniques than the recently mentioned Senjutsu techniques. (In fact, it has been alternatly compared as either a steroid or some facsimile of the 8 Gates Technique for several years now.) The Curse Seal is like a cancer (which was the symbolic reason for the visualization of the bloches "spreading" across Sasuke's body), but, like a cancer, even if the cell is mutated, it is still a cell developed and mutated by the hosts body (the poison used to put Sasuke in a state of near death was used to expand and enhance the presence of said "cancer" in Sasuke's body.) As to the exact specifics of the Curse Seal, well Kishimoto has never really explained it (is it simply an injection of Juugo's cells?...no, otherwise Orochimaru would never be able to control the host (though he failed in regards to Sasuke ), and there is no way to stop the spread of a biological agent (as Kakashi did) with a seal, let alone keep it at bay with will-power, so it seems highly unlikely that it is a foreign biological agent that is "controlling" Sasuke), so something else is clearly going on (hopefully the third data book will give a more adequete description). Whatever the case may be, the Curse Seal, no matter its creation, simply uses the "hosts" own chakra. At no point is any other chakra used to control or empower the Curse Seal or the user of the Curse Seal, it is simply their own power mutated to its current stage.

That is the sole reason I have been arguing with you. The similarity you keep mentioning between the Curse Seal and Senjutsu is the use of the characters "death", but this seems to be the only similarity, and if it is the only similarity then the two techniques are not really comparable to each other which you have tried to argue (way back in your first post (of this discussion) where you postulated that Sasuke may know Senjutsu simply because he had to "die" to learn a technique).

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Since you tried to provide a similarity between Jinchuuriki power and Senjutsu, let me also provide a difference. To use Senjutsu, you need to use your own chakra to achieve the desired result (based on the real Fukasaku explanation, not a Gamakiched version of it). To use Jinchuuriki power, you don't need to have your own chakra armed and ready. You can directly use the foreign chakra. After all, it is chakra by itself, not some kind of energy to mold with your own energy to convert it into usable chakra. Anyways, that is what I understood from it.

Chakra can only be funneled through your body...so, Senjutsus is funneled through the human body, just the same as the combined Kyuubi and Naruto chakra is funneled through Naruto's body. Added to that, only when a Jinchuuriki goes out of control is it only the Bijuu's chakra being channeled, otherwise there is always a combination of sorts between the jailor and the bijuu's chakra (ex: the use of the Fuuton: Rasenshuriken). A Jinchuuriki (not a bijuu) uses a combination of the two chakra supplies, much the same as a Senjutsu user uses the combination of two chakra supplies. In this respect the two "power-ups" are far more comparable than the Curse Seal to Senjutsu (which is what my previous example described).

You are correct though, that Senjutsu goes a step further and creates a new chakra that is funneled through the body, whereas a jinchuuriki only uses a direct combination but not a true mixing of the two chakra supplies (which is also why I used the Gamakichi example to describe the situation, sice it is eaiser to understand Jinchuuriki using Gamakichi's description...plus it is more fun to come up with different culinary situations similiar in design to Gamakichi's example ).

Originally Posted by Fipskuul

Pointing finger was Itachi's speciality, Sasuke needs to choose somewhere else. Maybe the tongue, if he can imitate Orochimaru.

I actually think that would be pretty cool...then again, I might be the only one .

[Juruzu]

I say Senjutsu = Complete Rasengan shuriken

[HayashiTakara]

lol, eyeballs releasing smells? ahem...

Anyway, nature power huh? sounds interesting, not gonna pass judgement until I actually see it in action.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

You are right, we have two different versions of control. I see no way that a human body can control the power of a Bijuu without being altered (i.e. Naruto gaining tails, or Hachibi having tentecles), but you are describing a possibility that has him controling the Bijuu without a physical change. Your idea certainly has merit (and I fully admit that I would preffer if Naruto simly gave up the Kyuubi and used Senjutsu (or at least Senjutsu as it has been described in this one chapter )), but it seems to go against everything we currently know (then again, Senjutsu itself goes against everything we currently know ). Additionally, learning Senjutsu to master the Kyuubi's chakra seems a little odd if we already know of the existence of a "Key" that's sole purpose is to control the Kyuubi (How it controls the Kyuubi is unknown).

edit: I should mention that I am of the belief that the "key" will be used to more rapidly convert the Kyuubi's chakra, not give Naruto control of the Kyuubi's chakra/abilities.

Just to be clear: i'm trying to make reason for Jiraiya's and Minato's decision. Because both Minato's and Jiraiya's decisions about the Naruto-Kyuubi case always seemed to be stupid or even ruthless. Minato's decision to use his own son as a demon container just seems evil knowing all what we know about the life/destiny of an average demon container (i mean people hate them, the demon torments them, and finally they are killed either by the demon or by people like akatsuki). I guess some people did even base their theory of Minato=akatsuki leader on this, because the decision to use hiw own son seemed quite evil/ruthless. Then we have Jiraiya, everything that he has done "training" Naruto seems stupid if we go by the logic that he should not use the demon and that he has faith in Naruto as a ninja. He did state that he has faith in Naruto as a ninja (destined child, etc.), just as others stated it, so if he should not use kyuubi to gain power than why did he train Naruto *all* the time to use it? When he first met Naruto he began his training by breaking Orochimaru's seal, then he proceeded in dropping him into an abyss just to make him use the kyuubi chakra. For 2,5 years he trained Naruto to use kyuubi. Remember when Naruto returned from the training and went to save Gaara? He was pathetic as a ninja, we were reading the manga and saying to ourselves "what the hell did they waste those 2,5 years for?!".

So i gave this explanation/theory because this would cancel all of the above complaints about Minato and Jiraiya. It would magicaly make all their decisions about Naruto from ruthless to caring and from stupid to smart.

I'm not sure about the "key". When Jiraiya mentions the "key" the old frog says that Naruto should not know about it because it's too dangerous. Based on that the "key" is not control but a "key" that can open up Yondaime's seal so that Naruto can use much more chakra, but with much higher risk. If Naruto learns to control kyuubi much better using senjutsu then using the "key" would not be a suicide.
The "key" could also mean senjutsu itself, in that case the old frog is already giving the key to Naruto. In this case senjutsu + kyuubi chakra use is dangerous, that's why the old frog did complain against Jiraiya's proposal.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Just to be clear: i'm trying to make reason for Jiraiya's and Minato's decision. Because both Minato's and Jiraiya's decisions about the Naruto-Kyuubi case always seemed to be stupid or even ruthless. Minato's decision to use his own son as a demon container just seems evil knowing all what we know about the life/destiny of an average demon container (i mean people hate them, the demon torments them, and finally they are killed either by the demon or by people like akatsuki). I guess some people did even base their theory of Minato=akatsuki leader on this, because the decision to use hiw own son seemed quite evil/ruthless. Then we have Jiraiya, everything that he has done "training" Naruto seems stupid if we go by the logic that he should not use the demon and that he has faith in Naruto as a ninja. He did state that he has faith in Naruto as a ninja (destined child, etc.), just as others stated it, so if he should not use kyuubi to gain power than why did he train Naruto *all* the time to use it? When he first met Naruto he began his training by breaking Orochimaru's seal, then he proceeded in dropping him into an abyss just to make him use the kyuubi chakra. For 2,5 years he trained Naruto to use kyuubi. Remember when Naruto returned from the training and went to save Gaara? He was pathetic as a ninja, we were reading the manga and saying to ourselves "what the hell did they waste those 2,5 years for?!".

but to think about that matter...

minato didnt have much of a choice...if he knew that he couldnt kill kyubi or make him go away its only logical he used his son as a container...and not himself...i dont know he may did it for the sake of konoha itself...they dont have a bijuu for themselves while other countries did...

think about it if he didnt used naruto what would happen when orochi teamed up with sand and gaara turned into a monster? who would have stopped him?

about j man training , sure it seemed a bit stupid in 2,5 years wasted on kyubi control...actually naruto did learn to use his KB efficiently and his jutsu speed increased...but the failed one is not j man it is kishi...he made j man look dumb after he decided to add naruto some things as kakashis KB training and sage arts.those made j man an idiot for a teacher...do you really think j mans insight of jutsus are weaker than kakashi? i dont think so but it happened that way

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by tatami

but to think about that matter...

minato didnt have much of a choice...if he knew that he couldnt kill kyubi or make him go away its only logical he used his son as a container...and not himself...i dont know he may did it for the sake of konoha itself...they dont have a bijuu for themselves while other countries did...

Even if Minato didn't care about Naruto we have another issue: in a war soldiers are not supposed to use civilians. So Minato should have sealed the demon in a ninja and not in a civilian. That just makes him evil... unless he "had a plan". And guess what, in these sorts of stories people have plans. Itachi had a plan, even if in the end it failed, but by giving Naruto some of his power he had a plan even for the current situation. Accepting that Minato and Jiraiya were good guys, we can safely assume that they "had a plan" for Naruto.

Originally Posted by tatami

think about it if he didnt used naruto what would happen when orochi teamed up with sand and gaara turned into a monster? who would have stopped him?

Gaara was a piece of crap in that fight. Shukaku was stopped by a boss summon and a genin. And sannin could summon a boss and then kick Gaara's ass with it just like Naruto did.

Originally Posted by tatami

about j man training , sure it seemed a bit stupid in 2,5 years wasted on kyubi control...actually naruto did learn to use his KB efficiently and his jutsu speed increased...but the failed one is not j man it is kishi...he made j man look dumb after he decided to add naruto some things as kakashis KB training and sage arts.those made j man an idiot for a teacher...do you really think j mans insight of jutsus are weaker than kakashi? i dont think so but it happened that way

Jiraiya's training makes sense if he was prepairing Naruto for his final senjutsu training. If he had a vision about Naruto's growth then he didn't even think about other possibilities. Also let's be fair here: Kakashi is more or less regarded as a genius while Jiriaya falls in the same category as Naruto. Which means it's perfectly logical that Kishi gave the idea of kyuubi+massKB training to Kakashi and not Jiraiya. Actually i liked that, because the team7=sannin training was becoming boring story. Just because Jiraiya is clearly stronger than Kakashi that does not mean that he is smarter than him, in fact i think Kakashi is the smarter one. But being smart does not solve the world's problems.

[tatami]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Even if Minato didn't care about Naruto we have another issue: in a war soldiers are not supposed to use civilians. So Minato should have sealed the demon in a ninja and not in a civilian. That just makes him evil... unless he "had a plan". And guess what, in these sorts of stories people have plans. Itachi had a plan, even if in the end it failed, but by giving Naruto some of his power he had a plan even for the current situation. Accepting that Minato and Jiraiya were good guys, we can safely assume that they "had a plan" for Naruto.


Gaara was a piece of crap in that fight. Shukaku was stopped by a boss summon and a genin. And sannin could summon a boss and then kick Gaara's ass with it just like Naruto did.


Jiraiya's training makes sense if he was prepairing Naruto for his final senjutsu training. If he had a vision about Naruto's growth then he didn't even think about other possibilities. Also let's be fair here: Kakashi is more or less regarded as a genius while Jiriaya falls in the same category as Naruto. Which means it's perfectly logical that Kishi gave the idea of kyuubi+massKB training to Kakashi and not Jiraiya. Actually i liked that, because the team7=sannin training was becoming boring story. Just because Jiraiya is clearly stronger than Kakashi that does not mean that he is smarter than him, in fact i think Kakashi is the smarter one. But being smart does not solve the world's problems.

minato just couldnt use anybodies child i think you agree that , that IS evil. but also narutos own chakra was able to stand kyubi chakra or smtng like that too. naruto in this case not a random selection from minato and in war everyting goes civilians childs mothers and stuff.war is not a game and couldnt be played by soldiers only

I think the plan was to protect him when he was gone...a power to protect him (yet konoha was dumb to treat him as they did) I hope we learn more about the sealing and minato himself///

gaara wasnt a piece of crap and shuukaku kicked gamabunta here and there...it was naruto punching gaara with the help of kyubi chakra...if there was no kyubi...there was no victory for konoha most probably.and at that time one of the sannin was against konoha one was gambling somewhere and one was protecting konoha.

i wont argue about which one s smarter cuz we dont know but both of them are smart but one is praised as sannin.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by tatami

minato just couldnt use anybodies child i think you agree that , that IS evil.

Why use a child in the first place???

Originally Posted by tatami

but also narutos own chakra was able to stand kyubi chakra or smtng like that too.

Where was it stated that Naruto was particularly suited to be a container? That would be a bloodline limit, but it was never stated that Naruto has a bloodline limit related to demon chakra usage ability. Actually i had a theory that the Uzumaki clan might have such a bloodline limit that would allow Naruto to use the power and thus Minato's decision would make sense. But i think the senjutsu idea is even better.
If we compare Chiyo's and Minato's seals it's clear that Minato's seal gave Naruto less power but more defense against the demon. While Gaara was able to kill people with sand Naruto didn't even know about the kyuubi in him, but at the same time Naruto never suffered the kyuubi's powers while Gaara suffered quite a lot because of it. Which means that Minato's seal was designed to comepletely suppress kyuubi while Naruto is a child, but also was designed so that when Naruto grows up he will can draw out huge amounts of kyuubi chakra, which means Minato did give Naruto a weapon that can be activated when he grows up.

Originally Posted by tatami

gaara wasnt a piece of crap and shuukaku kicked gamabunta here and there...it was naruto punching gaara with the help of kyubi chakra...if there was no kyubi...there was no victory for konoha most probably.and at that time one of the sannin was against konoha one was gambling somewhere and one was protecting konoha.

Naruto needed kyuubi's chakra to be able to summon gamabunta and to be able to make a mass kage bunshin. But people like the sannin can do all that and even more by using their own chakra. I just stated that Gaara would be no match for a sannin at that time (Gaara was 12 years old) regardeless of shukaku or not (that means the demon does not grant him victory against kage level people).

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Why use a child in the first place???

A popular fandom theory is that a child's Chakra Coils aren't fully developped, making it easier to adapt to the Kyuubi's chakra.

[X_Danny_X]

well this is all what Jiraya went through, i wonder what Naruto would do differently. it could be the beginning stages of Hermit Mode, but if it is not, then i wonder why Jiraya didnt use this technique against Pain? This is has to be a stage 1 and Naruto will learn more powerful techniques.
w
however, Naruto's element is wind. so one of the chakara controll is learning how the air/atmosphere works, so maybe he can become super super super strong, he has too in order to beat Pain, well he still use the Kyuubi with that "jutsu".

[Keroko]

Wind strikes me as an ellement easilly used against multiple targets at once, so perhaps he will learn to use multiple-target attacks? That would make sense against an opponent like Pain, who is hard to defeat when targeting one-on-one.