Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Hypocritical?
That's a bit harsh.
I just said I didn't understand why people are talking about her here, not that it's the most horrible thing I've ever seen.
Oh well. Back to Suzaku.
I think he's a very interesting (and damn huggable) character. I often thought what would have happened if he hadn't killed his father.

I correct a bit spelling for u. He might be the next prime minister of Jaban if that the case.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

I correct a bit spelling for u. He might be the next prime minister of Jaban if that the case.

Oh, sorry, I wanted to put in "wonder" there. *goes and corrects it*
Thanks. ^^

But I was more thinking about his personality.
If his father had... I don't know... just died somehow, would Suzaku have started his own rebellion?

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Oh, sorry, I wanted to put in "wonder" there. *goes and corrects it*
Thanks. ^^

But I was more thinking about his personality.
If his father had... I don't know... just died somehow, would Suzaku have started his own rebellion?

Good question.....I think not cause in Nightmare Of Nunnally he was in the Britinnia army.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

Good question.....I think not cause in Nightmare Of Nunnally he was in the Britinnia army.

But Nightmare of Nunally isn't canon. o.o
Hm... what happened there to his father? I only know that I don't like the drawings. xD

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

But Nightmare of Nunally isn't canon. o.o
Hm... what happened there to his father? I only know that I don't like the drawings. xD

His father was kill by CC I heard.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Knight Of Zero

His father was kill by CC I heard.

O_O
That's interesting.
Almost a reason to take a second look at it.

[Goldarmy]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

After that kind of accident, there was only one path to take. Euphy wasn't going to get out of the responsibility for that incident.

Not really, It wasn't impossible for him to have her locked up. He chose to kill her to hide his shame and his secrets. But even if there was only one path it doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.

Fair enough, but it doesn't really answer the question. It doesn't change the fact that it's the kind of thing that would get him killed.

I ask again if you are annoyed by this why are you watching action anime in the first place?

Even grunts need to be taught.

How to hold a gun or which pedals to press in a Knightmare frame. Not special stuff like this. Of course unless you can find something like Training manual for Brittania Army both of us are just speculating.

Suzaku wouldn't is my point. He's even more stubborn than Tohdoh in that regard.

Even if he was a prisoner of Black Knights?

At least if he were a rebel he'd be killing the enemy, not the people he's trying to help.

What are you talking about? Starting a rebel/guerilla war means you are comdemning a good portion of your own people to nasty death. For every enemy you kill you can expect ten people from your community to die, and this is the general low range number it can go higher than that. And we actually see it in the series. For a guy like Suzaku, who already carries the guilt failing to stop killings in the war, joining the army was the soundest thing he had done.

No, he doesn't understand the corruption, and if he did he would know that his plan is fundamentally flawed.

It wasn't flawed because he has met Britannians that aren't corrupt.

Nevertheless, Japan would be free and Zero's strategies insure that most of them would be alive to see it.

Zero's strategies aren't infallible (in fact it has been shown that he doesn't deall all well with unexpected events) and there is no proof that Japan can stay unharmed.

He couldn't predict that it was Schneizel who was showing up, that he had an energy rain of death Knightmare inside his giant flying ship.

As he couldn't predict the White Knight foiling his plans.

As for a giant target, it was Suzaku who said, paraphrased,

It was Lelouche who set up the trap with himself as bait.

Clearly not in this case.

Especially in this case. Morale and propaganda is vital to non-conventional wars. You don't get anywhere without shoving your ideas through the throats of people. That is why Zero was pushing allies of justice stuff. That is why he blew up JLF and used it as a rally point. That is why he went to Euphemia to sabotage her efforts and use it as a rally point.

It took him all of five seconds to figure out that the agency was compromised.

Only because Lelouche, Rolo and Viletta were nowhere to be found. In fact if they were around Lelouch would just play innocent, Rolo and Viletta would report all is well and Suzaku will be at where he started.

One does not jump to their very probable death like that as an act. Suzaku's just letting his hate blind him to the obvious.

Part of it is hatred and part of it is the fact that Leleouche is an excellent liar and manipulator.

True, but nevertheless they aren't willfully damning other countries to get that.

Simply because they don't have to.

That he is doing what he does to the benefit of the people, at least as a means to his own end, rather than leaving them worse off.

He is doing what he does as always solely for his own end. That the people he got rid of were cartoonishly evil doesn't change it.

As for the first part, yes she is, but that doesn't change the fact that they were friends at one point

Friends? What friends? They were classmates and enemies not friends.

yet he has no problem killing her when she is, for all intents and purposes, defenseless against his attack.

She is willingly in a war machine (which she used to kill countless soldiers) on a modern war. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.

Arguably the people inside Japan are barely his concern. He's just doing his Knight of One route as a way to remove the need for Zero.

And the reason you say this besides "I hate Suzaku"?

Certainly a colorful analogy. Geass makes people act against their nature, but they have no memory of it afterward. All those people Lelouch makes move to other cars in the trains are no worse off for it, and questioning Cornelia didn't exactly do her harm.

If Suzaku had brought Rai to make Kallen tell all of her secrets do you think people would have sympathise with him. Or would they call him Geasszaku?

This is like knocking someone out with a tranquilizer vs doing it with a bat. You get the same result, but one's gonna leave the victim a lot worse off.

Except the person using tranquilizer uses it to rape people.

Doesn't change the fact that he wanted the war over, and that meant not attacking Japan.

Because an all out war is a very wonderful thing and being a battlefield suits Japan very much.

As soon as Lelouch does it Suzaku's all put-off about Lelouch doing it because of him. He wouldn't have accepted anything less.

I have no idea what you are trying to tell with this line.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Not really, It wasn't impossible for him to have her locked up. He chose to kill her to hide his shame and his secrets. But even if there was only one path it doesn't change the fact that it is a poor excuse.

He chose to kill her because she was being forced to do something against her nature, and forever would be. Geass can't be cured, at least not at that point. Killing her was an act of mercy. She would have been blamed one way or another, and killing her in no way hid what he did to her because there's no way to detect Geass other than knowing it exists and seeing behavior being off.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

How to hold a gun or which pedals to press in a Knightmare frame. Not special stuff like this. Of course unless you can find something like Training manual for Brittania Army both of us are just speculating.

Indeed we are, but in real-world armies even the lowest soldiers are generally expected to have a basic understanding of such things.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Even if he was a prisoner of Black Knights?

Maybe not the terrorist versions in the first season, but if they took him prisoner cell and all, I don't see him breaking out.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

What are you talking about? Starting a rebel/guerilla war means you are comdemning a good portion of your own people to nasty death. For every enemy you kill you can expect ten people from your community to die, and this is the general low range number it can go higher than that. And we actually see it in the series. For a guy like Suzaku, who already carries the guilt failing to stop killings in the war, joining the army was the soundest thing he had done.

Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father. As for causing the deaths of his fellow Japanese, he's doing that by being in the army to. Numbers are scum, it's national policy. That's why Clovis could order an entire ghetto cleansed on a whim. Rebellion isn't contributing to the death toll any more than the Britannians are.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

It wasn't flawed because he has met Britannians that aren't corrupt.

It is flawed because he met unimportant Britannians who are not corrupt. The people at the top are.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Zero's strategies aren't infallible (in fact it has been shown that he doesn't deall all well with unexpected events) and there is no proof that Japan can stay unharmed.

Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit. As for Japan, obviously there's the threat of re-invasion, but to use that possibility as a mark against Lelouch is just foolish. He would know to organize their defense or push ahead.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

As he couldn't predict the White Knight foiling his plans.

It was Lelouche who set up the trap with himself as bait.

And Suzaku who figured it out and yet pressed on like a moron. That he couldn't predict Suzaku being a problem I cover earlier.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Especially in this case. Morale and propaganda is vital to non-conventional wars. You don't get anywhere without shoving your ideas through the throats of people. That is why Zero was pushing allies of justice stuff. That is why he blew up JLF and used it as a rally point. That is why he went to Euphemia to sabotage her efforts and use it as a rally point.

People still have the illusion of free choice in these situations. Suzaku's way doesn't allow for even that small favor. He's outright making people bow before their oppressors.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Only because Lelouche, Rolo and Viletta were nowhere to be found. In fact if they were around Lelouch would just play innocent, Rolo and Viletta would report all is well and Suzaku will be at where he started.

Which they wouldn't have been. Your point doesn't work. If he had just gone there first, he'd have his proof.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Part of it is hatred and part of it is the fact that Leleouche is an excellent liar and manipulator.

Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Simply because they don't have to.

Hence it's a much better way of going about it.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

He is doing what he does as always solely for his own end. That the people he got rid of were cartoonishly evil doesn't change it.

Just because one acts to their own end doesn't mean they can't help others along the way.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Friends? What friends? They were classmates and enemies not friends.

Watch Stage 21. Kallen may not like him, but Suzaku at the very least wanted to try to change her mind. That went out the door quick.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

She is willingly in a war machine (which she used to kill countless soldiers) on a modern war. Stop portraying Kallen as an innocent civilian victim.

And stop trying to portray her as if they were on even ground. She couldn't fight back.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

If Suzaku had brought Rai to make Kallen tell all of her secrets do you think people would have sympathise with him. Or would they call him Geasszaku?

Despite the nonsensical nature of this, it would have been a better way to go about it. She wouldn't even remember betraying him.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Except the person using tranquilizer uses it to rape people.

And the one using the bat is doing the same, one is still worse.

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

Because an all out war is a very wonderful thing and being a battlefield suits Japan very much.

And slavery is better?

Originally Posted by Goldarmy

I have no idea what you are trying to tell with this line.

It means that Suzaku expected Lelouch to call off his attack completely, as in no attacking Japan ever. Suzaku got all put-off because Lelouch went ahead and did it after their meeting went south.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

He chose to kill her because she was being forced to do something against her nature, and forever would be. Geass can't be cured, at least not at that point. Killing her was an act of mercy. She would have been blamed one way or another, and killing her in no way hid what he did to her because there's no way to detect Geass other than knowing it exists and seeing behavior being off.

You really just agreed with him, you know. Not one bit of that counters his assertion that Lelouch did it to hid the truth.

Indeed we are, but in real-world armies even the lowest soldiers are generally expected to have a basic understanding of such things.

Congratulations! We are talking about anime-world, where Pizza Hut supports the rebellion, giant robots skate, and teenage princes can convince gullible masses to die for his own gains.

Maybe not the terrorist versions in the first season, but if they took him prisoner cell and all, I don't see him breaking out.

This is Suzaku, the man who kicks down automated machine gun turrents. If the plot calls for it, he'd do it.

Suzaku joined the army because he felt guilty for killing his father, not because of any inability to stop the fighting. Hell, he outright put a stop to it by killing his father. As for causing the deaths of his fellow Japanese, he's doing that by being in the army to. Numbers are scum, it's national policy. That's why Clovis could order an entire ghetto cleansed on a whim. Rebellion isn't contributing to the death toll any more than the Britannians are.

Of course, when there isn't a rebellion or resistance, Britannia isn't cracking down. Do you happen to remember why Clovis ordered the razing of the ghetto?

Ah, that's right. A couple rebels with an outdated knightmare blew up a black project, killing Japanese and Britannian civilians both, and then made off with goods that they didn't even know. Or rather, thought was a nerve agent... which could really only kill a lot of Japanese, if used in Japan.

It is flawed because he met unimportant Britannians who are not corrupt. The people at the top are.

Euphie, Shneizel, Charles, Cornellia, and Cornelia's knights were corrupt?

Flawed or not, it worked. Suzaku's path of using the system brought the SAZ, which even Lelouch submitted to.

Suzaku, and pretty much only Suzaku, is the reason why Zero's plans get messed up, because he's an irregular unit. As for Japan, obviously there's the threat of re-invasion, but to use that possibility as a mark against Lelouch is just foolish. He would know to organize their defense or push ahead.

Push ahead? Do you remember why Japan was conquered so easily in the first place? Japan is small and weak, and has always been behind the curve. During the first war, Britannia deploys knightmares. During the first rebellion, Britannia fields superior knightmares, pioneers the float system and other weapons, and grinds the Rebellion to dust.

In the second rebellion, Britannia has nukes.

If you accuse Suzaku of being a hopeless follower of a flawed path that actually succeded, you really should lynch Lelouch for being so stupid as to oppose a military that really can kill everyone else combined.

People still have the illusion of free choice in these situations. Suzaku's way doesn't allow for even that small favor. He's outright making people bow before their oppressors.

By recognizing that neither actually gives the Japanese any choice in the matter, you've implicitly recognized that Suzaku is being more honest with the people he seeks to benefit as he sees best.

Now was that so hard?

Again, jumping to one's death is not something that can be faked.

Sure it is. Happens in fiction all the time.


Ah, I'd say more on the comedic gold mine you have here, but alas debating the finer parts of fiction and what a work of fiction shows isn't in my time schedule.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

You really just agreed with him, you know. Not one bit of that counters his assertion that Lelouch did it to hid the truth.

Thought I did. He didn't do it to hide the truth. He could just let her massacre endlessly and it wouldn't reveal what he did. He did it out of mercy.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Of course, when there isn't a rebellion or resistance, Britannia isn't cracking down. Do you happen to remember why Clovis ordered the razing of the ghetto?

Alright, fair enough on that part, but they go after rebellious forces anyway. Cornelia went all out against the JLF headquarters when she got to town.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Ah, that's right. A couple rebels with an outdated knightmare blew up a black project, killing Japanese and Britannian civilians both, and then made off with goods that they didn't even know. Or rather, thought was a nerve agent... which could really only kill a lot of Japanese, if used in Japan.
Euphie, Shneizel, Charles, Cornellia, and Cornelia's knights were corrupt?

I don't recall it ever saying Japanese were killed in that little raid. Regardless, Kallen was against the idea of using because it would start a massacre. Begs the question of just what they planned to do with it, though.

Corruption, however, has nothing to do with this particular incident. Corruption here is how policy is formed, carried out, etc. In this case, Charles is top dog and it is outright law that non-Britannians are scum. The only way that was going to change was through a new Emperor.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Flawed or not, it worked. Suzaku's path of using the system brought the SAZ, which even Lelouch submitted to.

Only because Euphie gave him a pardon, explained a few pages back. Plus, Suzaku had virtually nothing to do with that, other than being Euphie's LI.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Push ahead? Do you remember why Japan was conquered so easily in the first place? Japan is small and weak, and has always been behind the curve. During the first war, Britannia deploys knightmares. During the first rebellion, Britannia fields superior knightmares, pioneers the float system and other weapons, and grinds the Rebellion to dust.

In the second rebellion, Britannia has nukes.

Japan was one of the last conquered because it's such a problematic country. They held their own until Knightmare Frames came about. During the first rebellion they failed because Zero left with their biggest military asset. Superior Knightmares had nothing to do with it, because the only ones fielding such things weren't even on the battlefield. The second rebellion had the Britannians with an actual strategic advantage, which is why they pretty much stalemated after that.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If you accuse Suzaku of being a hopeless follower of a flawed path that actually succeded, you really should lynch Lelouch for being so stupid as to oppose a military that really can kill everyone else combined.

It didn't succeed, nor would it have without Lelouch working from outside the system. As for Lelouch challenging Britannia, he did so repeatedly and won. Only those in which completely unforeseen circumstances royally fucked up his plans does he actually fare badly. The Britannians may have military might, but you can only fit so much might in one place.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

By recognizing that neither actually gives the Japanese any choice in the matter, you've implicitly recognized that Suzaku is being more honest with the people he seeks to benefit as he sees best.

By telling them their opinion means nothing and that they should remain slaves. Lelouch appeals to freedom, which many do want. He is less honest about his motives but he's giving people what they want, so opposed to forcing them to accept something they don't.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Sure it is. Happens in fiction all the time.

I can thing of a few examples where they do it intentionally, but doing it while catching another person who definitely isn't is another story.

[Dean_the_Young]

Since long quote wars are tiresome and tedious, I'm going to pick a few of these.

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Alright, fair enough on that part, but they go after rebellious forces anyway. Cornelia went all out against the JLF headquarters when she got to town.

Because the JLF was resisting. Didn't we already establish that Britannia cracks down with extreme prejudice on any resistance, but doesn't do so without such?

I don't recall it ever saying Japanese were killed in that little raid.

It was one of the show's first demonstrations of the Britannian importance over Elevens. There's a news report on the terrorist attack which leads off with the Britannian death toll, and then mentions as an aside the Eleven death toll even though more Elevens died than Britannians.

Corruption, however, has nothing to do with this particular incident. Corruption here is how policy is formed, carried out, etc. In this case, Charles is top dog and it is outright law that non-Britannians are scum. The only way that was going to change was through a new Emperor.

That's not corruption, that's racism. Which, strictly speaking, Charles isn't. Charles is the epitome of Darwinistic thought, not caring about race if you have power. Schneizel never shows any real racism (and, remember, Suzaku agreed to try and put him on the Throne once it became clear Charles didn't care about the world), Euphie loved the Japanese, and even Cornelia has her views of Elevens-turned-Honorary Britanians slowly changed from opposition to grudging respect as Suzaku keeps defying her expectations.

Corruption is the stuff like taking bribes, abusing authority, taking advantage of the weak, etc. There's plenty of that in Britannia as well, but that's largely focused in the lower nobles and authority.

Only because Euphie gave him a pardon, explained a few pages back. Plus, Suzaku had virtually nothing to do with that, other than being Euphie's LI.

Exactly. Working through the system to make change from within, even though Suzaku himself has little power. Suzaku supports Euphie, as even Euphie acknowledges, and Euphie uses her power to change the system. It is the validation of his entire philosophy.

Japan was one of the last conquered because it's such a problematic country. They held their own until Knightmare Frames came about.

Actually, the side material clarifies that Japan held on because it balanced all three powers, Europe, Britannia, and China, against eachother, even though each could overpower it. Suzaku's father gambled that none would challenge him because of the other two, but Britannia called him out on it and scored a total victory.

By telling them their opinion means nothing and that they should remain slaves. Lelouch appeals to freedom, which many do want. He is less honest about his motives but he's giving people what they want, so opposed to forcing them to accept something they don't.

Not forcing them to accept? Lelouch launched his rebellion regardless of what others thought. When the SAZ promised to let the Elevens be Japanese, legal equals to Britannians, the public was siding with the peaceful path to their legal freedom, a completely voluntary path for those who chose to partake. And what does Lelouch do? He goes there with the express purpose of tearing it down, even if he does change his mind afterwords.

Lelouch is just as guilty as Suzaku for putting his own desires and judgements above what everyone else thinks. Do we really need to touch on the Demon Emperor Lelouch and the Zero Requiem, which was a plan built on the very premise that Lelouch and Suzaku knew what was best for the world and how to do it, screw the world's opinion on the matter?

I can thing of a few examples where they do it intentionally, but doing it while catching another person who definitely isn't is another story.

It's fiction. Whatever they want to happen, say will happen, happens. Realism flies out the door at the very premise of Code Geass and Britannia; there really is no way for the pre-Revolution Americas, cut off from the economic, military, and technological monopole of Europe, to build up a continent-spanning superpower without infrastructure, European finance, constant skilled (read: at the time, European) immigration, and a workable political theory. But the story calls for it, and so it is.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Because the JLF was resisting. Didn't we already establish that Britannia cracks down with extreme prejudice on any resistance, but doesn't do so without such?

Cornelia tore the hell out of Area 18 as I recall, and they were being conquered, not rebelling. Britannia pretty much crushes anyone that isn't Britannia.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

It was one of the show's first demonstrations of the Britannian importance over Elevens. There's a news report on the terrorist attack which leads off with the Britannian death toll, and then mentions as an aside the Eleven death toll even though more Elevens died than Britannians.

It's the media slanted toward Britannians, so saying more Elevens died may just be their way of throwing more blame on the terrorists. Even if it's not, given that Britannia uses Numbers as cheap labor and cannon, attacking anywhere is pretty likely to see dead Elevens one way or another.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

That's not corruption, that's racism. Which, strictly speaking, Charles isn't. Charles is the epitome of Darwinistic thought, not caring about race if you have power. Schneizel never shows any real racism (and, remember, Suzaku agreed to try and put him on the Throne once it became clear Charles didn't care about the world), Euphie loved the Japanese, and even Cornelia has her views of Elevens-turned-Honorary Britanians slowly changed from opposition to grudging respect as Suzaku keeps defying her expectations.

Corruption is the stuff like taking bribes, abusing authority, taking advantage of the weak, etc. There's plenty of that in Britannia as well, but that's largely focused in the lower nobles and authority.

Racism/corruption in this case equates to the same: the system isn't changing for Numbers. Charles is the one making the policy, and ousting him would not exactly have gone easily were it not for Lelouch. Schneizel's lack of motivation would have never seem him make a grab at the throne without Suzaku. Euphie's an exception, but she wasn't exactly in a position to take the throne or make sweeping changes. In fact she ruined that by giving up her title to get Zero to participate in the SAZ. Cornelia changes, but she too wasn't reaching the throne.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Exactly. Working through the system to make change from within, even though Suzaku himself has little power. Suzaku supports Euphie, as even Euphie acknowledges, and Euphie uses her power to change the system. It is the validation of his entire philosophy.

I would accept that if he actually had any plan to that effect. Suzaku just expects it to happen. That it does doesn't make him right, it just makes him lucky. Not to mention the fact that the supposed "change" was just a means to put down the rebellion rather than an honest desire for equality, at least as far as Schneizel was concerned.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Actually, the side material clarifies that Japan held on because it balanced all three powers, Europe, Britannia, and China, against eachother, even though each could overpower it. Suzaku's father gambled that none would challenge him because of the other two, but Britannia called him out on it and scored a total victory.

Knightmares were still a trump card there. There was no matching that.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Not forcing them to accept? Lelouch launched his rebellion regardless of what others thought. When the SAZ promised to let the Elevens be Japanese, legal equals to Britannians, the public was siding with the peaceful path to their legal freedom, a completely voluntary path for those who chose to partake. And what does Lelouch do? He goes there with the express purpose of tearing it down, even if he does change his mind afterwords.

Fair enough there. He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up. Such a thing would not be freedom, just a shiny thing to get the Elevens to play nice while the rebellious elements fell apart. And even then, he did it in a way that would at least make him look favorable. It's simple politics, a matter in which Lelouch has considerable skill and Suzaku has none.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Lelouch is just as guilty as Suzaku for putting his own desires and judgements above what everyone else thinks. Do we really need to touch on the Demon Emperor Lelouch and the Zero Requiem, which was a plan built on the very premise that Lelouch and Suzaku knew what was best for the world and how to do it, screw the world's opinion on the matter?

The way I see it they had just both gone batshit insane at that point, more so for Lelouch. The near-tanging of the world, his friend still wanting revenge, and losing pretty much everything that mattered to him does tend to push one into "fuck it" territory. Before that, at least, Lelouch is considerate enough to help others reach their goals on the surface.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Cornelia tore the hell out of Area 18 as I recall, and they were being conquered, not rebelling. Britannia pretty much crushes anyone that isn't Britannia.

Agreed, but once they conquer you they won't just kill you unless there's resistance.

It's the media slanted toward Britannians, so saying more Elevens died may just be their way of throwing more blame on the terrorists. Even if it's not, given that Britannia uses Numbers as cheap labor and cannon, attacking anywhere is pretty likely to see dead Elevens one way or another.

That really doesn't matter from the original point, which was that the Japanese resistance attack also killed more Japanese than Britannians.

Racism/corruption in this case equates to the same: the system isn't changing for Numbers. Charles is the one making the policy, and ousting him would not exactly have gone easily were it not for Lelouch. Schneizel's lack of motivation would have never seem him make a grab at the throne without Suzaku. Euphie's an exception, but she wasn't exactly in a position to take the throne or make sweeping changes. In fact she ruined that by giving up her title to get Zero to participate in the SAZ. Cornelia changes, but she too wasn't reaching the throne.

1) Racism and corruption are not the same thing, because they mean entirely different things. This is a matter of definition, not semantics.
2) Schneizel was already running Britannian diplomacy and much domestic, both de facto and dejure as the foreign minister. Becoming Emperor really would have just cemented what he already did.
3) The SAZ was that sweeping change, and one that could, and if it proved out well (and the anime implications were that it would have) then it could have been copied in other areas.

I would accept that if he actually had any plan to that effect. Suzaku just expects it to happen. That it does doesn't make him right, it just makes him lucky. Not to mention the fact that the supposed "change" was just a means to put down the rebellion rather than an honest desire for equality, at least as far as Schneizel was concerned.

He works to prove Britannians wrong in their assumptions of the Elevens. His hard work validates the Honorary Britanian system, and his successes are the proof that make the possiblity of reform possible; Cornelia and her nights go from rank dismissal to respect for him, as a Honorary Britanian and an Eleven, due to his work. It doesn't matter why Britania would offer legal equality and freedom, so long as they do.

If you're trying to negate his gain because Schneizel and Cornelia weren't sincere and eagerly hoping for equality, should I also assume that you do the same for Lelouch and Zero? The man who, in the final turn of S1, admits to Kallen that he saw Japan's liberation as little more than a welcome side-effect of his own crusade, and that she should have no complains?

Knightmares were still a trump card there. There was no matching that.

Yes, but that was icing on the cake. The very opening episode describes Japan as a land of few resources, and the side material makes clear that Japan only acts as it does because it plays three stronger powers off of each other.

Fair enough there. He was going to tear it down. He saw it for what it was, though, even before it started up. Such a thing would not be freedom, just a shiny thing to get the Elevens to play nice while the rebellious elements fell apart. And even then, he did it in a way that would at least make him look favorable. It's simple politics, a matter in which Lelouch has considerable skill and Suzaku has none.

And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.

You simply can not honestly dismiss Suzaku for ignoring the opinion of the people and for the potential consequences of his success without doing the same for Lelouch, who not only placed his own judgement above that of every other person in the series, including the sister he started it all for, but as we already established was committed to fighting the world's only nuclear power. Regardless of how skillful Lelouch is at politics, he is also dedicated to crushing Britannia, shown to be as powerful as the rest of the world combined, and Britannia is dedicated to keeping the Geass ruins that were Charles' motivations for invasions in the first place. That's an equally damning set of catastrophe as the dire warnings you raise for if the SAZ succeded.

[Dilla]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.

Did you see Cornelia's reaction when SAZ was annouced?

I don't buy that part, there were various instances that was that proved Japanese wasn't equal to Britannians even without resistance. Like the the beatdown of Japanese civilians by Britannian citizens in public, not goveronment personel. Pubilc opinion was that Japanese was inferior to Britannians. It would take decades to change that mindset, not just a parcel of land. And when the only way you can get somewhere in the world in is to sign up to be an Honorary Britannian over being Japanese, that is not equal.

And I wonder about Charles, he may not have been a racist, but he was a strong believer of Darwinism. Had he actually taken notice that Euphie was giving the Japanese land back, and it started to show success, how hard unbelievable would it have been if he did something about it? Chances are he would have flexed his power over Schneizel and Cornelia(who didn't give Suzaku respect until after the Massacre). And of course, soldiers would have followed Charles since they still believe Japan was inferior, just look at how eagerly they followed Euphie when she randomly ordered the massacre of civilians.

I'm not saying that SAZ couldn't have worked, it may have been pretty likely. But to say it would have worked was just absurd. It's all specualtion, it was, is, and will always be.

[NyxOne]

Well, it's been generally established that, with the exceptions of Schneizel and Lelouch, Charles doesn't give a shit about his kids.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by NyxOne

Well, it's been generally established that, with the exceptions of Schneizel and Lelouch, Charles doesn't give a shit about his kids.

Even with those two, he gave a shit because they got into the way of his plans. Infact Charles has been shown to not even care about the governing of his empire which is one of the things that put Schneizel off about him.

As for the SAZ, it as been mentioned but one of the major reasons it was even allowed was because the Britannians needed to undermind Zero's support. So really Zero had more to contribute to the formation of the SAZ then Suzaku himself. The way I see it, Euphie formed the SAZ because of what she believed in and the kind of person she was. In fact when Nunally tried to reform the SAZ, Suzaku was not behind the idea until Euphie was mentioned. Euphie influenced Suzaku much more then the way around as up until Euphie gave him the speech about loving her he was still looking to die a martyr. Euphie gave him a new wish and gave him her ideals as well.

[Knight Of Zero]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Even with those two, he gave a shit because they got into the way of his plans. Infact Charles has been shown to not even care about the governing of his empire which is one of the things that put Schneizel off about him.

As for the SAZ, it as been mentioned but one of the major reasons it was even allowed was because the Britannians needed to undermind Zero's support. So really Zero had more to contribute to the formation of the SAZ then Suzaku himself. The way I see it, Euphie formed the SAZ because of what she believed in and the kind of person she was. In fact when Nunally tried to reform the SAZ, Suzaku was not behind the idea until Euphie was mentioned. Euphie influenced Suzaku much more then the way around as up until Euphie gave him the speech about loving her he was still looking to die a martyr. Euphie gave him a new wish and gave him her ideals as well.

She didn't gave him new ideals he been had those stupid thoughts.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Agreed, but once they conquer you they won't just kill you unless there's resistance.

No, they just treat you like slaves, leave you to die in poverty, etc.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

That really doesn't matter from the original point, which was that the Japanese resistance attack also killed more Japanese than Britannians.

Fine, can't argue that.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

1) Racism and corruption are not the same thing, because they mean entirely different things. This is a matter of definition, not semantics.
2) Schneizel was already running Britannian diplomacy and much domestic, both de facto and dejure as the foreign minister. Becoming Emperor really would have just cemented what he already did.
3) The SAZ was that sweeping change, and one that could, and if it proved out well (and the anime implications were that it would have) then it could have been copied in other areas.

Racism can result in corruption, because the system is set up in such a way that it becomes impossible for those it discriminates against to change it. Schneizel may have been running foreign policy, but his actions were still being run past the Emperor. He was smart enough not to rock the boat so the uncaring Emperor wouldn't get on his case.

The SAZ has been covered by others before me, but I'll reiterate a few points. The SAZ was not a sweeping change. It was a gimmick used by the higher-ups to fuck over the rebels. It wouldn't have been copied in other areas, because it would go against Charles' policies of discrimination. Hell, the only reason he didn't put a stop to it is because he outright knew Lelouch would ruin it. You see this in his happy laugh during the massacre. He may have been happily surprised, but he knew something would happen.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

He works to prove Britannians wrong in their assumptions of the Elevens. His hard work validates the Honorary Britanian system, and his successes are the proof that make the possiblity of reform possible; Cornelia and her nights go from rank dismissal to respect for him, as a Honorary Britanian and an Eleven, due to his work. It doesn't matter why Britania would offer legal equality and freedom, so long as they do.

Reform is not a one-man job. Reform is something many people fight for. This is something Suzaku doesn't realize. All Suzaku did was prove himself a traitor and a backstabber, which is why many Britannians dealt with him. Not once but twice, by two different people no less, he is outright called a man who will betray anyone to get a leg up. Cornelia and her knights only respected him because of Euphie, and even then Cornelia only did so after Euphie died.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

If you're trying to negate his gain because Schneizel and Cornelia weren't sincere and eagerly hoping for equality, should I also assume that you do the same for Lelouch and Zero? The man who, in the final turn of S1, admits to Kallen that he saw Japan's liberation as little more than a welcome side-effect of his own crusade, and that she should have no complains?

It wasn't his gain because he did nothing to make it happen. it was Euphie's idea inspired by Lelouch and Nunnally. Lelouch was using Japan's liberation as a stepping stone to further his plans, which means it is not a side-effect but an expected outcome. Lelouch was working toward a specific goal. Suzaku had no plan whatsoever.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Yes, but that was icing on the cake. The very opening episode describes Japan as a land of few resources, and the side material makes clear that Japan only acts as it does because it plays three stronger powers off of each other.

Alright, I won't argue this.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

And Suzaku had large support from the Japanese and Elevens before the Euphie Massacre, and the leaders such as Schneizel and Cornelia would take care to keep the populace docile and happy, if only to prevent more problems from starting. As we already agreed on, even though Britannia is out to conquer the world it isn't out to kill it's occupied areas for no reason. If Japan is content and non-rebellious with it's equality within the zone, Britannia won't need to crackdown. If Britannia doesn't crack down, then the Japanese can continue to go about being free and equal to Britannians, which creates a virtuous cycle until an outside force disrupts it.

Suzaku didn't have major support. At best opinions were divided. Euphie's "country on a silver platter" is what swayed people. Just because Britannia wouldn't massacre its occupied territories for no reason doesn't mean they'd let freedom stand. The Numbers aren't equal. Again, it's national policy. Charles wouldn't have put up with it in more than one place.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

You simply can not honestly dismiss Suzaku for ignoring the opinion of the people and for the potential consequences of his success without doing the same for Lelouch, who not only placed his own judgement above that of every other person in the series, including the sister he started it all for, but as we already established was committed to fighting the world's only nuclear power. Regardless of how skillful Lelouch is at politics, he is also dedicated to crushing Britannia, shown to be as powerful as the rest of the world combined, and Britannia is dedicated to keeping the Geass ruins that were Charles' motivations for invasions in the first place. That's an equally damning set of catastrophe as the dire warnings you raise for if the SAZ succeded.

To start, Britannia was not a nuclear power until way late in the series, and he doesn't fight them after that point. Schneizel was just one man with a big gun in the final battle, and we know how his plan would play out if Lelouch didn't put him down.

As for Suzaku, I can dismiss him, because Lelouch is giving people what they want and working toward the same goal in an effective manner, while Suzaku's method, in addition to simply telling everyone who disagrees to shut up and play nice, would still leave Japan a conquered nation, assuming he even managed to become Knight of One.

Finally, to the part about fighting Britannia in general, just because a nation has better resources does not make them unbeatable. In fact, they were pretty much even with the UFN once it was formed, and even in single engagements only so much military force can be used in one place. The bigger army is not always the victor, and Lelouch fought them because he has the skill to beat those odds.

[Nogitsune]

So Suzaku always was idealistic and flawed.
I think we already established that.
I still adore him, just like I adore Lelouch and Clovis. Neither of them is a saint, but they are all very intriguing characters who just couldn't get it right.

Sure, Lelouch always tried to give people what they wanted, but he never bothered to ask them first. And how many lives did he destroy on the way? Her murdered women, children, abandoned a whole country for the sake of his personal happiness (which, of course, equals Nunally), ...yep, definitely not a saint.
But he was too kind for this world, so I really don't blame him. Quite the opposite, in fact: I think he deserved much more happiness in his life.
Now, that may seem a little bit off-topic, but I think it's rather hard to talk about either Lelouch or Suzaku without mentioning the other. (And I'll never get how you can love one of them and hate the other like some people do/did, but that's just me.)

Suzaku, in my opinion, is the same as Lelouch. He was much too kind for the world he was born into.
His childhood was not much less traumatic than Lelouch's, and just like his best friend, he was only trying to do the right thing.
They have a different way of thinking, but that what makes their friendship so much more interesting. They complement each other.
If Suzaku hadn't been consumed by his guilt, if Lelouch had known about his friends pain, if they hadn't been sperated or done things just a little bit differently... I wonder what would have happened.
But even though we can only speculate about that, I'm pretty sure things would have went a lot more smoothly.

[morbosfist]

I don't think they could have worked together at any point before when they did. Suzaku needed to get thoroughly slapped in the face with how pointless his methods were and Lelouch needed to lose everything before finally dealing with Suzaku.