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Originally Posted by morbosfist
I'm sure I've disagreed with this before, but I don't see how he would have begun forgiving him. As Turn 18 and 21 show, Suzaku's got the memory of a fish when it comes to that sort of thing. In Turn 17 he was ready to forgive Zero, then the meeting is fucked up because of his carelessness (really, if you're going to arrange a secret meeting, make sure you're not followed) and he's right back to wanting Zero punished in 18. He remembers that both Shirley and Euphy didn't finger Lelouch as Zero in 21, yet still goes back to revenge mere minutes later. I'll admit that Shirley can build bridges, but covering that gap is like trying to bridge the Grand Canyon the long way. Simply put, only Lelouch himself, and outright agreeing to die at that, were enough to get him to play ball.
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Yeah, we've disagreed. I guess I'm resuming the conversation.
I think principle to Suzaku's attitude towards Lelouch in 17 was his identification that Lelouch was Shirley's killer. A year had passed since Euphie's death, and as Turn 8 showed, Suzaku's heart had already begun seeking answers rather than revenge. You can even see this in Suzaku's initial hesitation to identify Lelouch as the revived Zero--Suzaku did not want to see Lelouch as a criminal, so he irrationally held onto the hope that Lelouch hadn't regained his memories. The immediacy of Shirley's death, however, made his mind up for him: he could not afford the (what he saw as) vain hope that Lelouch was not the Zero who had betrayed him, and one day the entire world.
Anyway, his interactions with Lelouch afterwards were coloured by that. The despair of not being able to believe in his friend. In his mind, his leniency had already caused two tragedies. It was not until he was faced with the consequences of this prejudice, Lelouch's death by his hand, that he was able to release it.
So to restate what's relevant: Shirley's death was a trigger for Suzaku's prejudice. Without it, his reconciliation with Lelouch would have occured much earlier.
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Assuming the conversation even happened, which it wouldn't since he'd never meet the Emperor at the cult, it would have actually kept him away from Kallen. Suzaku was pissed when Lelouch attacked Tokyo after their meeting went south, and that was the only way Kallen was coming home. Of course, the meeting would go down the same regardless, since Schenizel's spying is independent of those events, and the rest would play out similarly.
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See above about Suzaku. Lelouch's mindframe played a role during the battle of Tokyo as well. As for the conversation not happening in the first place, I don't really mind, 'cause then Schniezel's spying wouldn't have happened at all, and that'd support my main point that Lelouch wouldn't have resorted to Zero Requiem had Shirley survived.
I still think Lelouch and Suzaku's attitudes played an important part in how that conversation played out, however. So even had it occurred, and Schniezel spied on them, something would be different. Remember that the clip Schniezel ending up using came from the most hurtful part of Suzaku's rant, where he was basically treating Lelouch's entire existance like that of an unfeeling, inhuman betrayer. Although Suzaku started believing that in Stage 25, the resurgence of that attitude was only caused by the circumstantial evidence surrounding Shirley's death (Shirley having regained her memories, Zero/Lelouch being in the area, her death being apparently a suicide (easily suggesting Lelouch's geass), and Lelouch going missing afterwards). Had Suzaku approached him in a questioning rather than accusatory manner, Schniezel'd have to look elsewhere for incriminating material.
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Shirley would not have been enough to stop him, I think. When he lost the Black Knights he lost the ability to affect change in a rational manner, and losing Rolo would go hand in hand with that. He'd push Shirley away same as he did Kallen to complete his plan, because in light of the world nearly being tanged he just lost faith in humanity getting the message through normal means.
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I didn't really say anything about what Shirley might have done to stop him. Rather, this point relies only on the basic assumption that Lelouch's suicidal attitude in Turn 19 was in response to having lost 'everything': Shirley was dead, Rolo was dead, Nunally was 'dead'. He basically had nothing left to live for; that's why, even though Zero Requiem gave him a purpose, it still ended in his death. Remove that suicidal desire, and a different plan is formed. That's basically the endpoint of my whole argument with this anyway.
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Originally Posted by Frostfire
So, if I am understanding you, she exploited the situation to get what she wanted.
What did Lelouch do? He exploited the situation to get what he wanted. His sleeping with Kallen certainly had nothing to do with getting Nunally back, just as Shirley's actions towards Lelouch had shit to do with her Dad magically getting revived.
I don't really see how this helps you or hurts my point in any way shape or form. They are recipricals under notably different situations, but their actions are roughly similar. How, exactly, are they different? Lelouch lost a bucket ton more than Shirley, so his crash was notably more severe. But they still attempted to seek comfort from others and not think about what they had lost. Shirley used her father to get Lelouch's pity, and get comfort. Lelouch did the same thing with Kallen, just that she was the one who talked about Nunally.
The only point you can argue in this is Freudian of what Lelouch saw in Kallen. I can easily say that he wanted her because it was her. You can easily say the opposite, and this won't get anywhere.
That was hardly her only reaction. What about her reaction when she found him dead? She did not get to Lelouch immediately after, she first cried her eyes out. And as you said, she wanted him to be kind to her, she was after his comfort. Like Lelouch was after Kallen's comfort. They had different circumstances, vastly different, but they ultimately sought the same thing.
I do not see how you can see it was his attempt to escape Nunally, any more than Shirley's usage of Lelouch was her trying to escape her father's death.
Here we are again employing Freudian logic. Unless you can read their minds, you cannot say such a thing matter-of-factly. Lelouch saw Kallen, in that instance, as someone he wanted comfort from. You won't say that he did it because he saw Kallen as someone he was attracted to, obviously, because that goes against your point. But you also cannot say what you are saying so flatly because you do not know. Maybe it would have had a personal significance for him, you do not know. He's done enough with her to make it just as plausible as none at all.
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Here's the point, since you're not getting it. What did Shirley say to get Lelouch to comfort her? "Lelouch...save me." What did Lelouch say to get Kallen to comfort him? "There are things you can do as a woman." Was Lelouch attracted? Sure, why not. Would recieving the kiss have been personally meaningful? No.
Jesus, this point was not supposed to get that long.
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So we're going to continue shaping ZR to fit our argument? The justice Kallen was after was a kind world, just like what Nunally was after. You make it sound like Kallen is an idiot. If she understands what the plan is, then she will see that it is still the exact same Lelouch, standing for exactly what he was standing for the entire time. You can't say that it is the opposite of what she believed he stood for when he did nothing different from normal. She's known of his crimes, his geassing Euphemia, and so on, she still followed him. All the evil he's commited to better the world, you just completely throw that out.
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A Lelouch who wants to kill himself...is the exact same Lelouch, huh? I'm not saying that Kallen forgot all of the evil Lelouch had committed. I'm saying she was okay with it. That's why she continued following him, after all. The point of Zero Requiem was that Lelouch was
not okay with it (anymore). Or more like, Suzaku was not okay with it and Lelouch wanted to die. These things oppose Kallen's interests, okay?
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Lelouch predicted it, and used it to his advantage. He used Rivalz, how is that hard to see? He rejected him from then on because he was useless but he still used him to that point. He pushed him away after using him, don't take just the half that suits you. He used him, then discarded him. Tell me how his using Rivalz as a messenger boy is at all comparable to how he treated Kallen.
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Okay, and? Lelouch also 'used' Kallen blowing up Lancelot Albion to declare that the Knight of Zero was dead. He totally manipulated and took advantage of her, what an asshole amirite.
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Wtf? She questioned herself and him, that is questioning whether you are doing the right or wrong thing. If she didn't believe it, the scene wouldn't have happened.
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lol, so now you're telling me questioning == believing. Right. You're also clearly misunderstanding me if you think that scene is even relevant. Suzaku and Nina don't 'question' Lelouch's actions. In fact, Suzaku goes out of his way to make sure Lelouch doesn't waver. What Suzaku and Nina desire, and what Lelouch is willing to oblige, is to make him pay. They are clearly on the side of "Lelouch you were wrong". Acceptance of this is critical to being able to participate in helping him kill himself. Do you really think Kallen, who last we saw was saying she'd die for his sorry (
wrong) ass, fits in there?
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The only thing that I really need to say: If Kallen had never been captured, forcing Lelouch to go OOC to get her back, then Shirley would never have even been involved with him for the season.
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I don't see the connection. Also elaborate on what you mean by Lelouch going OOC. Zero, yeah sure, but Lelouch? Development in Turn 07 and Turn 09 say otherwise.
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No offense, but when someone applies this much Freudian to an argument and states things as if they can read the minds of the characters and see the future, I get really turned off from it. So I might not reply.
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You are using Freudian as a noun, and I don't know what it means. I
can read characters' minds and see the future, though. At least better than you.
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Originally Posted by Lie
They still contribute to the story, and are still canon. They are done by the creators, no just some random staff members.
This NT story contradicts the most recent PD.
Makes you wonder why PD3 was between Kallen and Lelouch too, if he was apperantely so in love with Shirley.
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Yeah, so you have something against me. You say 'apparently', but I've not seen anybody on this board (least of all myself) claim Lelouch was 'so in love with Shirley'. I've taken what you've said regarding the 'canonicity' of stuff at face value thus far, but an attitude like that is hurting your credibility.
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