Madoka Magica - Episode 06 Discussion / Poll

[applejuice]

Spoiler for don't read since it's ranting:

Mami's dead, Kyuube's manipulative bitch (hell try to oppose it, it's 1000 vs 1), Homura's truth, Kyoko's epic, Sayaka's dangerous, Madoka's cute.

End of the story, no complexity there. Let's just stop discussing things like 'KYUBEZ NOT EVIL' sort of needless things, right? It's too much of lol-worth when people is going philosophical all over with the definition of single word and stuffs.

Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife

Ths thing is that the body is a puppet. But what happens if the body's head is almost seperated from the torso (aka neck sawn halfway). Can it still be manipulated? If yes, Mami can still survive. If no, Mami cannot have survived

I said this before, but why everyone is so enthusiastic about 'REVIVING MAMI'? Seriously, you obviously know who Urobuchi is, and he can easily grant her something that is worse than dead. For sake of my mental health, I will rather put Mami into sleep than reviving.

Oh wait, being magical girl itself is proven to be not better than death in this episode anyway.

[Sparvid]

What I wish would've happened after Kyuubee explained the soul gems:

Madoka: "So does that mean that Mami is sti-
Kyuubee: "Dead as a doornail."
Madoka: "Oh..."
[cue end credits]

[Mentar]

I really feel pity for Homerun-chan ^_^;

By now, she saved Sayaka three times:

1) By saving them from Charlotte (the witch who killed Mami)

2) By pulling Sayaka to safety when Kyoko was about to skewer her

3) When she immediately blinked after Sayaka's soul gem

As a sidenote, she

4) Stopped Sayaka from running into a deathmatch she would have lost by knocking her out

5) Negotiated a backoff from Kyoko

6) Stopped Kyoko from attacking Sayaka again when Kyoko broke the agreement

Under all these circumstances, I really wonder what Homura could possibly do to make the "Homura doesn't care about Sayaka at all" reconsider. Nothing, I guess.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, actually I saw her as a bitch. So I am being fair in my typical "hater" analysis.

Well, it seems that a lot of people here more or less agree with me on Kyoko, and just see her as an open-and-shut case of being a violent psychopath (and hence there's not much to talk about there).

And that's fine.

But then, by logical extension, that would also mean that all of the talk over Kyubey makes him a more ambiguous character than Kyoko is, correct?

But you know, I really enjoyed her "oh fuck" reaction.

Oh, I agree.

I'm not saying that Kyoko is a bad character (she serves an important role in this story, and is frequently entertaining as a playful antagonist), just that she's clearly a vicious bully who is no less deserving of moral criticism than Kyubey is.


Something that I've become curious about...

To those who strongly believe that Kyubey is evil, is it that you hate him as a character (like how many people hated Kirino in Ore no Imouto), or is it a "love to hate" kind of deal where Kyubey is more or less a "good villain" for you?

In other words, does he annoy you and make you wish that he wasn't there, or are you glad that he's there so you can actively root against him?

Slight?

In my view, withholding information that's not even asked for is nowhere near as deceptive as intentionally giving false information (i.e. lying). So yes, slight.

Even accusing Kyubey of making a "lie of omission" is a bit on shaky ground for me, because I have yet to see him refuse to answer a question (not that I can recall anyway). He's simply not saying much that isn't specifically asked for, unless a pressing situation makes it necessary to give out new information.

I mean, most politicians (if not all politicians) outright lie. They intentionally give false information. We don't know yet if Kyubey has crossed such a line.

If the gem wasn't thrown over, would he have said anything?

Probably not, no.

Withholding things that could get you killed is a bit shady.

Well, even with out knowing that the soul gems now contains their actual souls, magical girls are given enough information to know that the soul gem is invaluable, and if lost you're in big trouble.

I mean, Madoka's idea in Episode 6 was clearly that by throwing away Sayaka's soul gem, Sayaka would not be able to transform into a magical girl, and hence the fighting would stop (that's what Madoka was thinking, anyway, I believe).

I get your point, but in fiction it's fairly popular to put in an antagonist that cannot or will not have empathy for people. They might not get it but they are still regarded by us or evil, or at least our enemy. Barring that, they are at least... umm extremely disagreeable.

Antagonists such as the Terminators,

A while ago I compared Kyubey to the T-800 from Terminator 2, so yes, I definitely see the Terminator comparison.

The thing is, though, is Kyubey a heartless being working for a good end goal (like Arnold's T-800 in Terminator 2) or is he a heartless being working for a villainous end goal (like the T-1000s in Terminator 2)?

That's what we don't know yet, imo.


Anyway, I probably won't have anything more to say about this until the next episode comes out.

I think that we've hashed out the latest Episode 6 developments about as much as we can, and all sides have had a fair chance to have our voices heard there.

I'm now going to try to wait until Episode 7 comes out, to see what developments there might shed some new light on the subject.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Mentar

6) Stopped Kyoko from attacking Sayaka again when Sayaka broke the agreement

Slight correction, it's Kyoko who broke the agreement by provoking Sayaka first.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Under all these circumstances, I really wonder what Homura could possibly do to make the "Homura doesn't care about Sayaka at all" reconsider. Nothing, I guess.

I agree she's done all of what you stated,I even posted something similar to what you said in the Sayaka thread.
The question is does she really care about Sayaka or only care about her because she's Madoka's friend?

Does she save her from Kyoko in episode 5 if Madoka wasn't about to make a wish?Does she step in the fight in episode 6 if QB hadn't brought Madoka.
Does she make the effort to chase after a truck to retreive her soul gem if her death wouldn't traumatise Madoka.And so on.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by Jimmy C

Slight correction, it's Kyoko who broke the agreement by provoking Sayaka first.

Yep, typo. Sorry, naturally it was Kyoko.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The thing is, though, is Kyubey a heartless being working for a good end goal (like Arnold's T-800 in Terminator 2) or is a heartless being working for a villainous end goal (like the T-1000s in Terminator 2)?

You left one option out. He could be working for a selfish goal while the benefits to humanity are secondary, and frankly are of no concern to him. Perhaps he needs to get a number of girls contracted to get a wish of his own, for example.

Well, even with out knowing that the soul gems now contains their actual souls, magical girls are given enough information to know that the soul gem is invaluable, and if lost you're in big trouble.

Big trouble as in not being able to access your magic and so, not being able to do your job. Not die outright because you lose control of your body. That's like the difference between telling someone a certain mistake could get you fired versus said mistake could get you killed.

[Mentar]

Originally Posted by totoum

I agree she's done all of what you stated,I even posted something similar to what you said in the Sayaka thread.
The question is does she really care about Sayaka or only care about her because she's Madoka's friend?

Look at it that way: Madoka tosses the Soul Gem away - Homura is visibly _shocked_ and instantly blinks after it, struggling hard to reach it. Her usual pokerface is completely gone. This was no premediated "I better save her now in order not to make Madoka sad". This was an instinctive immediate "Danger! Must save her!" impulse.

Besides, it's completely consistent with her character. She's warning people not to get involved, but when push comes to shove, she ALWAYS tried her best to help humans and MGs alike. She rather tries to avoid making commitments she's unable to keep - like she said. In secret, even after refusing Madoka's plea to help Sayaka, she STILL tried to do something, by interjecting herself between Kyoko and Sayaka.

[Klashikari]

Also, Homura -never- stated she would kill Sayaka or anything. She only used the verb "倒す" (to defeat/to knock down), which doesn't mean she would outright kill her, unlike Kyoko.
Expecting her to "beat Sayaka to death" is inconsistent with how Homura was desperately trying to retrieve Sayaka's SG, so it isn't far fetched to conclude Homura basically tried to incapacitate her so the later wouldn't take part of the Walpurgis night.
Homura's actions are definitely consistent with this mindset: even though Madoka is her obvious priority, it isn't like she would forsake humans and/or MG either.

Considering what Homura was repeating ever since the beginning, acting like an ally of justice won't make guarantee your survival, and despite Kyoko's amoral stance, she is arguably "more suited" regarding survival than Sayaka any day of the week.

[FlavorOfLife]

Originally Posted by applejuice

I said this before, but why everyone is so enthusiastic about 'REVIVING MAMI'? Seriously, you obviously know who Urobuchi is, and he can easily grant her something that is worse than dead. For sake of my mental health, I will rather put Mami into sleep than reviving.

Oh i agree. Its better overall for her to remain dead. For example, if they wish for her to live again, she returns... as a mahou shojo. Hence she will have to continue fighting until she dies and she can't even die normally from old age if puppet body does not age. Back from the dead to eternal endless work

And this is just the 2nd best case scenerio. All other scenerios are worse except foe a properly worded wish that would effect the best case scenerio. Even then a revived mami would just be a target for being "persuaded" to make a wish

However, if there are hints that Mami may return, those should register it as a possibility.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Also, Homura -never- stated she would kill Sayaka or anything. She only used the verb "倒す" (to defeat/to knock down), which doesn't mean she would outright kill her, unlike Kyoko.
Expecting her to "beat Sayaka to death" is inconsistent with how Homura was desperately trying to retrieve Sayaka's SG, so it isn't far fetched to conclude Homura basically tried to incapacitate her so the later wouldn't take part of the Walpurgis night.
Homura's actions are definitely consistent with this mindset: even though Madoka is her obvious priority, it isn't like she would forsake humans and/or MG either.

Considering what Homura was repeating ever since the beginning, acting like an ally of justice won't make guarantee your survival, and despite Kyoko's amoral stance, she is arguably "more suited" regarding survival than Sayaka any day of the week.

Perhaps, but beating down Sayaka right in front of Madoka, isn't going to make Madoka anymore enthused with Homura. She has to know that. She has to have at least considered that attacking Sayaka might make Madoka become an MG just to protect her friend... something she has supposedly been going against since the beginning.

On other side note:

If this is an idealistic universe, then Mami will be revived. If she remains dead, then it's a cynical universe, which means Madoka is currently wrong in her naive idealistic approach.

I can understand why some want an idealistic universe: They are freer to hate Kyube since what he is doing is a cynical approach. They can also praise Madoka, while also hating Sayaka. But this approach would have to disregard the advice Madoka's mother gave to her, and also accept that Mami would have to come back to life. Idealism is the Sailor Moon approach, where even if people die, they come back to life. Note that this means also that Homura is dead wrong, too, and that makes her an antagonist.

In a cynical universe, people die and don't come back. Which would Kyube's actions are justifiable, Madoka is naive, and Homura and Kyoko have different degrees of justification, too. Sayaka started naive, but she's growing cynical, which means she's fitting in more and more, and is the example that Madoka will follow.

Real life tends to be cynical by nature. Cynics are generally right, because nothing ever works out 100% perfect, but idealists do tend to live longer due to optimism. If the series is following the realistic path, then Madoka needs to lose a chunk of her idealism and become more realistic, just like Homura and Kyube are. There is no perfect solution; there is only solutions with varying degrees of success and dirtiness. Nice guys finish last.

So, people at least need to pick a side and be consistent across the board.

Fate/Stay Night and it's several paths, show a good comparison of the idealist(Fate path), Unlimited Blade works (middle), and cynical (Heaven's Feel) routes.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

In my view, withholding information that's not even asked for is nowhere near as deceptive as intentionally giving false information (i.e. lying). So yes, slight.

Even accusing Kyubey of making a "lie of omission" is a bit on shaky ground for me, because I have yet to see him refuse to answer a question (not that I can recall anyway). He's simply not saying much that isn't specifically asked for, unless a pressing situation makes it necessary to give out new information.

I mean, most politicians (if not all politicians) outright lie. They intentionally give false information. We don't know yet if Kyubey has crossed such a line.

He hasn't, although some dearly want to believe he has; it would make them more comfortable in their belief.

All of us have done what Kyube has. We go through every day, not sharing every detail with everyone because we don't consider it important. Are we evil? If people would ask us, we'd probably tell them. And perhaps some details are important, but does that make us evil liars because we didn't share something we didn't think important? It's hypocrisy of the first order.

And little is said of the girls themselves, of their own responsibility to find out exactly what it is they are getting into. Someone who just jumps into a contract and signs without reading it over, is stupid. And this plot is relying waaaay too much on character stupidity. The girls have to be dumb in order to be magical girls, so Gen doesn't have to reveal all the details up front.

Kyube is different, and mankind has forever hated people not like us. So what's happening here isn't much different that what has happened throughout history (and continuing today) with one group hating another because they act different.

A while ago I compared Kyubey to the T-800 from Terminator 2, so yes, I definitely see the Terminator comparison.

The thing is, though, is Kyubey a heartless being working for a good end goal (like Arnold's T-800 in Terminator 2) or is he a heartless being working for a villainous end goal (like the T-1000s in Terminator 2)?

I'd see Kyube more like a Jack Baur or a Batman. Willing to do the dirty works so the rest of us can sleep at night (which is a bit odd, since people would applaud Batman and Jack). Although I understand why people would hate this type of character, because we have a good example of that in the standard Jack Nicholson speech in A few Good Men:

Spoiler for The famous speech:

Jessep: You can't handle the truth! Son, we live in a world that has walls. And those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know: that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves lives...You don't want the truth. Because deep down, in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall.
We use words like honor, code, loyalty...we use these words as the backbone to a life spent defending something. You use 'em as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom I provide, then questions the manner in which I provide it! I'd rather you just said thank you and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you're entitled to!

His character was clearly antagonistic, but if his words disturb you, then good. Because that's the real world we live in, not something idealistic, and the disturbing feeling you get is the idea that it shouldn't be that way, and it is horrifying to think it has to be. There are men and women right now, picking up guns to defend us, doing dirty things to ensure our freedom so we can have a nice life. We have the comfortable position of looking down on them and deriding their actions, while benefiting from the result.

In the end, Jessep gives us the answer: "I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post." While he meant it to mean someone joining the army, it also means that if we want things to be different, we have to put forth effort do so. Unless we do, we're hypocrites for demanding others do it in our place.

So that's what I mean when I ask for people to showcase an alternate way for dealing with witches. It's all fine and dandy to curse those that protect us, but unless we have a better way, it comes across as useless whinging. "But... But... But... he's baaaad!"

[Sheba]

Some of those in the "Kyuubey is amoral and/or evil and a dick" camp are supporting that stance because we know the track record of Uroboshi and secretly want a downward spiral to despair with a Everybody Dies/Goes Insane kind of bad end, or want at least a Shadow of the Colossus twist with the Witches. Yes, some of "Kyuubey is evil, amoral and a dick" supporters are not those who cling onto a idealistic world. They are actually cynical dicks who believes that Magical Girl genre is in serious need of a bitchslap, the kind that Western genre have received when Sergio Leone have come in town with his Spaghetti Western. But right now, most of those in that camp just sit, watch and enjoy the show.

I mean, I have NOT come to watch Nanoha, I have wanted something different and episode three + Uroboshi have made me jump on my seat in a "Fuck yes you are the best anime of the season!" fashion.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Some of those in the "Kyuubey is amoral and/or evil and a dick" camp are supporting that stance because we knows the track record of Uroboshi and secretly want a downward spiral to despair with a Everybody Dies/Goes Insane kind of bad end, or want at least a Shadow of the Colossus twist with the Witches. Yes, some of "Kyuubey is evil, amoral and a dick" supporters are not those who cling onto a idealistic world. They are actually cynical dicks who believes that Magical Girl genre is in serious need of a bitchslap, the kind that Western genre have received when Sergio Leone have come in town with his Spaghetti Western. But right now, most of those in that camp just sit, watch and enjoy the show.

I've got no problem with those people, because they are consistent. They do believe it is a cynical universe, and so things can go horribly wrong, despite idealistic notions. And in this approach, you can pick out the bad from all of them:

Madoka and Mami - foolishly optimistic and idealistic, so much that they are a danger to themselves and others. Not doing much actual thinking but just reacting.

Sayaka - Started too optimistic, gradually going cynical. Too hot-headed and reckless for her own good own. Also not doing much thinking, just reacting to situations.

Homura - Seemingly only cares about Madoka, while coldy ignoring Sayaka. Either she's only concerned about Madoka's magic power and not the girl herself, or she's almost yandere-like in caring about Madoka but no one else. Even to the point of being willing to beat the crap out of Madoka's best friend in front of her.

Kyube - Sending girls into the meat grinder known as witches, while failing to really consider human emotions. What other details about all this isn't he sharing? Would it enable us to find another way?

Kyoko - Honestly selfish, and possibly the only genre savvy person given the nature of the universe. But also murderous and sociopathic; other beings only exist to get in the way, or help her advance somehow.

When you look at them that way, yeah, I can see this all rushing to a bad end. But as I've said before, this kind of things has been done before with Mai HiME. If we set aside the ending, the way the characters broke down and were pitted against each other was rather beautiful in a dark way. The standard MG tropes of love and friendship were broken down. And if we take that as a base, it was only Mai's determination to still fight at the end, when she had lost everything, that brought about the ending. The character tropes line up nicely, too:

Madoka = Mai
Sayaka = Mikoto
Homura = Natsume
Mami = Midori
Kyoko = Nao
Kyube = Nagi

The last one is interesting, because Nagi could also seen to be giving off creepy vibes early on, but there was no real evidence that he was actually evil. It wasn't until later when we learned his true motives. So that's what I'm waiting for in Madoka; the actual Nagi-like reveal of true motives. Until that evidence happens, Kyube is just a bit creepy and nothing more.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Mentar

This was an instinctive immediate "Danger! Must save her!" impulse.

True

Originally Posted by Mentar

she ALWAYS tried her best to help humans and MGs alike.

Though by saying that girls like Kyoko are more fit to be magical girls it seems she's given up on trying to save every human possible,considering Kyoko doesn't mind human death at all.


As I rewatched the episode and listened to what Madoka's mom had to say,the advice sounded like what Homura is doing with Madoka,someone has to take the "bad" role even if that means others don't understand you at first,it will be "messy" and your friend might not like you at one point but in the end they'll understand.
Which brings us to...

beating down Sayaka right in front of Madoka, isn't going to make Madoka anymore enthused with Homura. She has to know that.

She knows but if she's following the logic of Madoka's mom then I don't think her goal is to have Madoka be enthused about her.She wouldn't try to kill Sayaka and Madoka seems to only be willing to make a wish if Sayaka's life is threatened so she's probably confident about Madoka not making a wish.

All of us have done what Kyube has. We go through every day, not sharing every detail with everyone because we don't consider it important.

What I think a lot less of us have done is "not sharing a detail with someone when we know that person would think it's important,even if we don't think it is".
And we know QB knows that the girls would consider that important since he's said himself that he's seen other girls react to the news the same way they did.
So he knows odds are the girls aren't going to like that detail when they hear it,that alone should be enough for him to know that it'd be a good idea to tell them,even if he doesn't consider it important.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Some of those in the "Kyuubey is amoral and/or evil and a dick" camp are supporting that stance because we know the track record of Uroboshi and secretly want a downward spiral to despair with a Everybody Dies/Goes Insane kind of bad end, or want at least a Shadow of the Colossus twist with the Witches.

But that makes no sense to me.

If Kyubey ends up being clear-cut evil, then I'm very, very confident that the climax of this anime is going to be...

Super Special Spectacular Magical Girl Madoka!!!

vs.

Masterfully Malevolent Monster Kyubey, the Trickster!!!

And this will be one of the most clear-cut good vs. evil fights in all of fiction. The anime might be dark now, and for a few more episodes, but it'll end with a climax that will be like typical magical girl anime only on steroids.

If Kyubey is a morally gray military recruiter (as Kaijo and I are basically arguing) then you might very well get a darker ending. But if Kyubey is evil, then Kazu-kun is right, get ready for one intensely idealistic conclusion.

So, long story short, if you want something a lot darker than Nanoha, then Kyubey ending up being evil would probably undermine that.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The anime might be dark now, and for a few more episodes, but it'll end with a climax that will be like typical magical girl anime only on steroids.

While I can't deny that it'd be a very standard good vs evil fight,I don't see it as a typical magical girl anime kind of ending because I don't think many MG animes have the cute mascot character be "the Masterfully Malevolent Monster".The girls wouldn't be fighting the "monsters of the week overlord" but rather the magical girl system itself.

That doesn't mean I think grey QB wouldn't be more intersting,but that's another subject.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But that makes no sense to me.

If Kyubey ends up being clear-cut evil, then I'm very, very confident that the climax of this anime is going to be...

Super Special Spectacular Magical Girl Madoka!!!

vs.

Masterfully Malevolent Monster Kyubey, the Trickster!!!

And this will be one of the most clear-cut good vs. evil fights in all of fiction. The anime might be dark now, and for a few more episodes, but it'll end with a climax that will be like typical magical girl anime only on steroids.

Oh please, don't insult us with that kind of image. We are a little more demanding than that. I am fairly confident that those who came and stayed for Uroboshi have their own sets of expectations built upon their past experience with his work, namely Saya no Uta.

Does the adjective "Lovecraftian" and the tropes associated with this ever ring a bell to you?

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But that makes no sense to me.

If Kyubey ends up being clear-cut evil, then I'm very, very confident that the climax of this anime is going to be...

Super Special Spectacular Magical Girl Madoka!!!

vs.

Masterfully Malevolent Monster Kyubey, the Trickster!!!

And this will be one of the most clear-cut good vs. evil fights in all of fiction. The anime might be dark now, and for a few more episodes, but it'll end with a climax that will be like typical magical girl anime only on steroids.

If Kyubey is a morally gray military recruiter (as Kaijo and I are basically arguing) then you might very well get a darker ending. But if Kyubey is evil, then Kazu-kun is right, get ready for one intensely idealistic conclusion.

So, long story short, if you want something a lot darker than Nanoha, then Kyubey ending up being evil would probably undermine that.

How so? How would QB being evil make this show less dark? Since your using Nanoha as an example I'd like you to name me a ''evil'' character there? Fate? The Wolkenritters? The numbers? Nope. They were all morally grey characters so saying to avoid not being like Nanoha in fact it would have to there would in fact have to be a truly evil character.

I don't really think it really makes much of a different either way on the show darkness as the issues are quite separate.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I don't really think it really makes much of a different either way on the show darkness as the issues are quite separate.

I agree with that. In most magical girl shows the antagonist is not really evil. The actually evil antagonist is more the exception than the rule. If we add the fact that magical mascots are never more than just mascots (let alone the antagonist), if QB is proved to be the true antagonist of the series, that in itself is a pretty big subversion of the magical girl genre conventions.

Can you imagine Luna is the true villain in Sailor Moon lol