Madoka Magica - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Snork

Actually, I think I saw the same type of eyelids with rough ["furry"?] edges when Homura woke up in timeline 2... oh wait, hopefully it's not hinting at her? frankly speaking, I don't like the Nekomura theory (I like Nekomimi Homura art, though)

You're exactly right. There is a furry eyelid that opens just before Homura awakens into the 2nd timeline. That could be at last an actual piece of evidence for the Nekomura theory. Good catch!

Here's another possibility.

If we compare the two scenes, a point of similarity is that in both, characters are being reconstituted and reincorporated: Madoka is put back together after being torn to pieces and consumed by the little animated haloed men, and Homura is taken out of one timeline and reconstituted in another. In both scenes, there is an interval in which this transition takes place, complete with odd animation and flashing lights (though these differ visually between the scenes.) The cat (if that is what it is) seems to be the consciousness that bridges the distinct realities, or that inhabits the gap between them.

Perhaps the cat is not Madoka or Homura, but a neko-ex-machina, a third figure who is overseeing the events, and making sure things happen as they ought to.

The only other opening eyelid (besides the one in the OP) is the odd close of the ED, where an eye opens, to show Madoka as the pupil of the eye, for a mysterious face. Any idea what that is?

[Snork]

Well, technically the mysterious face is the mask from the "Mephistopheles" movie. There are also speculations that it might be Krimlied Gretchen as "krimlied" apparently means "mask" (info taken from Gretchen's page at Puella Wiki).

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Snork

Well, technically the mysterious face is the mask from the "Mephistopheles" movie.

Puella wiki is less definite about this resemblance. Looking at the movie poster, I'm not convinced.

Originally Posted by Snork

There are also speculations that it might be Krimlied Gretchen as "krimlied" apparently means "mask" (info taken from Gretchen's page at Puella Wiki).

Very interesting.

Pro: the image certainly does resemble a mask. Also, I confirm via reference to "behindthename.com" that Kriemhild derives from "grim" = mask and "hild" = "battle," so the connection you draw between ED image and witch Madoka is very plausible.

Con: the witches we have seen so far have not been very human in form, so I wonder if ascribing the ED image to a witch fits.

The ED image contains Madoka in the mask's left eye, where she is in a foetal position. So the eye is also a kind of womb. Perhaps the implication is that the face is the older version of Madoka, either the witch if that's how she turns out, or the adult Madoka will grow up to become. "The child is the father of the man;" perhaps this image is a visual equivalent of that idea. So the final image is a perfectly ambivalent clue as to the series' outcome!

What to do with the concept of a mask in Madoka Magica? Perhaps it is an allusion to the discontinuity between our inner desires and wishes and the reality of the world in which we find ourselves? Is it an allusion to the body itself, as a "husk," as QB calls it, for the soul within?

Are those other moments where we are looking out an eyelid, furry or not, also moments where we are looking out of masks? That doesn't seem to be true in the OP, where we are simply looking out Madoka's eye. And why would we look out the mask of a furry creature, even a cat? Besides, the eyelids open and close, so the face is alive, not frozen as masks are.

I'm not able to put all the pieces and allusions and visual games together.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

You're exactly right. There is a furry eyelid that opens just before Homura awakens into the 2nd timeline. That could be at last an actual piece of evidence for the Nekomura theory. Good catch!

Here's another possibility.

If we compare the two scenes, a point of similarity is that in both, characters are being reconstituted and reincorporated: Madoka is put back together after being torn to pieces and consumed by the little animated haloed men, and Homura is taken out of one timeline and reconstituted in another. In both scenes, there is an interval in which this transition takes place, complete with odd animation and flashing lights (though these differ visually between the scenes.) The cat (if that is what it is) seems to be the consciousness that bridges the distinct realities, or that inhabits the gap between them.

Perhaps the cat is not Madoka or Homura, but a neko-ex-machina, a third figure who is overseeing the events, and making sure things happen as they ought to.

The only other opening eyelid (besides the one in the OP) is the odd close of the ED, where an eye opens, to show Madoka as the pupil of the eye, for a mysterious face. Any idea what that is?

Furry eyelid...? How do you know it's not just long eye lashes?

[hyperborealis]

[hoarfrost]

A thousand posts on one episode. I guess this is what happens when the show gets delayed for two weeks.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ironically, I think that Kyoko's plan may have worked if Kamijo himself (as opposed to Madoka) was the one to appeal to Sayaka.

Now there's a very interesting thought... too bad we'll never know how exactly that would have turned out, because my curiosity's piqued now. Maybe Kamijou's presence would have calmed Sayka down and turned the witch's realm into a place so peaceful and serene that even Tatsuya could have safely walked through it, and maybe Hitomi's would have distorted the place into something so twisted, chaotic, and violent that not even the most powerful mahou shoujo would stand a chance.

Of course, I'm not discounting the possibility that Sayaka hates Kamijou's guts just as much (If not more) than Hitomi's. The guy that scorned your love usually isn't your #1 favorite person afterwards.

A thousand posts on one episode. I guess this is what happens when the show gets delayed for two weeks.

And when the episode in question is the most awesome thing in the history of ever.

[Deconstructor]

The problem with episode 10: it sets the standard stratospherically high. Episodes 11 and 12 have to surpass the already best anime episode of 2011.

Of course, this may not be a problem at all... looking from a different perspective, this means that Shaft is working their tails off to present something infinitely memorable. I only hope those expectations are met.

[Hagoshod]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Of course, I'm not discounting the possibility that Sayaka hates Kamijou's guts just as much (If not more) than Hitomi's. The guy that scorned your love usually isn't your #1 favorite person afterwards.

That's not how Bad Sayaka feels about Kamijou, though.

Even in her Witch form, she idolizes him.

She even created a doppelganger of him just to keep herself happy.

[Archon_Wing]

With no episode airing, I have nothing more to speculate on. But what do I want...surely if everyone comes back none the worse for wear that'd be kind of silly. If it were so easy to wish away these things, that wouldn't be satisfying. What would be satisfying for me? Well, I never thought out it til now.

What do I want?

This is no longer an issue of pessimism or optimism. It's about surviving and living, and this applies to the entire planet. Inaction is a guaranteed loss, so what is there left?

You could say the 2 remaining characters have lost everything and are out of options. There is nothing left besides despair and overwhelming odds piled against them. Maybe they should quit?

On the other hand, you can also see 2 girls with nothing left to lose (the city will be destroyed soon) and everything to gain. It's always interesting to see how people will react in these situations.

There is nowhere to retreat, nowhere left to stand. The only option left is to fight. Even if they should lose, the enemy will have to pry victory from their dead hands. So in this brief time, they'll need to somehow come up with anything and run with it.

Prove that humanity was here. That it didn't go down without a fight. That it would simply not just hand their lives to the enemy, but the enemy had to come and get them. And to send a message to the likes of Kyubey: Get the hell out of our (planet) galaxy! And forever to know, that perhaps, some favors come with too high a price.

[BlueWitch]

I found Sayaka's 2nd version of becoming Oktavia very interesting. "Looking for the feeling that moved her so long ago within a concert hall reverberating with the sound of guitar. Repeating within that time looking for a little difference, her wheel of fortune moves quietly toward the future. "

Seems like there was still a little hope left for her, and that it seemed the least worse of the two fates.

[Snork]

And when the episode in question is the most awesome thing in the history of ever.

That counts, too - but if not for the delay, many of these posts would have been in another thread already.

Of course, this may not be a problem at all... looking from a different perspective, this means that Shaft is working their tails off to present something infinitely memorable. I only hope those expectations are met.

I just want a cleverly written ending with Shinbo's usual visuals, drama and more music from Yuki Kajiura. Nothing will ruin this series for me, so the last episodes don't have to surpass ep 10 - for all I care, they may even be slightly inferior. Make them the level of ep 8/9, and we'll call it a deal. But it doesn't mean I don't believe in Shaft's potential to raise the plank once again.

[revive4563]

After all, nobody knows that true reason of delay still.

But some people mentioned that "the times are not right now".

I presume that Homura's final weapon for WN was nuclear bomb.

Therefore...they couldn't air episode 11 because of a trouble of Fukushima nuclear power station IMO.

[Snork]

^ but they had no problem airing Onii-chan no Koto with its joke tsunamis. Besides, I doubt the nuke idea will go beyond fandom jokes to turn out real - even if we're taking things literally, a nuke is too devastating to use, not to mention too complex to activate/use (Homura may have become a semiprofessional hitman, but she's still not a weapon expert).
Btw, Homura usually takes weapons from yakuza. If those guys keep nukes at their disposal, then I'm outta this city regardless of any witches.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

With no episode airing, I have nothing more to speculate on. But what do I want...surely if everyone comes back none the worse for wear that'd be kind of silly. If it were so easy to wish away these things, that wouldn't be satisfying. What would be satisfying for me? Well, I never thought out it til now.

The more you look at it, the more unlikely it seems that the problem will be resolved with a simple wish. The entire point of the show so far is that the wishes only bring worse trouble and that they never help.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Snork

Btw, Homura usually takes weapons from yakuza. If those guys keep nukes at their disposal, then I'm outta this city regardless of any witches.

Her latest weapons were taken from the military though, as you can see in that badass sequence time line 4.

[hyperborealis]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

The more you look at it, the more unlikely it seems that the problem will be resolved with a simple wish. The entire point of the show so far is that the wishes only bring worse trouble and that they never help.

Is that quite true? Mami gets additional life, and tells Madoka and Sayaka she prefers living on as a magical girl to the alternative. Sayaka heals Kyosuke's hand, so he can play music again. Homura creates an opening for fate to be changed, so that Madoka may not die, as she did in timeline one. Miracles are miracles, and do have real value.

Would it have been better for the girls not to have made their wishes? I don't think so, especially in Mami and Homura's cases. In Sayaka and Kyoko's cases, the issue was never the wish, but really, as Kyoko says, "I wished without understanding people, and it made everyone suffer." Sayaka and Kyoko get into trouble since they lack this understanding: the wish is itself simply the avenue which allows this personal lack play itself out tragically. After all, how many non-magical people make their own ordinary wishes without understanding, and come as surely to the same tragic end?

Sayaka believes that in becoming a Magical Girl, she is removed from humanity. "It feels like we're living in a different world with totally different people." Homura repeats the idea, saying in so many words, "I'm no longer human." And this is true. But the MGs are still liable to the ordinary problems of humanity. And so also to ordinary human virtues. I look forward to these virtues playing a decisive role in the conclusion, whether to save the day, or, as Archon Wing suggests, to affirm humanity even in defeat.

[Cosmic Eagle]

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Is that quite true? Mami gets additional life, and tells Madoka and Sayaka she prefers living on as a magical girl to the alternative. Sayaka heals Kyosuke's hand, so he can play music again. Homura creates an opening for fate to be changed, so that Madoka may not die, as she did in timeline one. Miracles are miracles, and do have real value.

Would it have been better for the girls not to have made their wishes? I don't think so, especially in Mami and Homura's cases. In Sayaka and Kyoko's cases, the issue was never the wish, but really, as Kyoko says, "I wished without understanding people, and it made everyone suffer." Sayaka and Kyoko get into trouble since they lack this understanding: the wish is itself simply the avenue which allows this personal lack play itself out tragically. After all, how many non-magical people make their own ordinary wishes without understanding, and come as surely to the same tragic end?

Sayaka believes that in becoming a Magical Girl, she is removed from humanity. "It feels like we're living in a different world with totally different people." Homura repeats the idea, saying in so many words, "I'm no longer human." And this is true. But the MGs are still liable to the ordinary problems of humanity. And so also to ordinary human virtues. I look forward to these virtues playing a decisive role in the conclusion, whether to save the day, or, as Archon Wing suggests, to affirm humanity even in defeat.

The wish is countered by suffering due to the system....and the counter is heavily unbalanced in the favor of suffering...

Surely said virtues are key to solving this but perhaps the way to apply them is not through Kyuube's wishes. After all those are all rigged.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

The more you look at it, the more unlikely it seems that the problem will be resolved with a simple wish. The entire point of the show so far is that the wishes only bring worse trouble and that they never help.

Hah, right. A lot of people ask why can't Madoka wish for "I wish all of this never happened", making me think that the system can't grant things that are so abstract and vague.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle

The wish is countered by suffering due to the system....and the counter is heavily unbalanced in the favor of suffering...

Surely said virtues are key to solving this but perhaps the way to apply them is not through Kyuube's wishes. After all those are all rigged.

The wish itself is not rigged.

The Magical Girl role, in this anime, is what is rigged.

It's a slight distinction, but it's a key one.


If Madoka decides to become a magical girl (through Kyubey contracting) then she is willfully accepting the rigged Magical Girl role. So that much can't be changed (except through a wish, perhaps ).

My argument has been that if Madoka does that, she might as well get as much out of her wish as possible.

A wish granted with no Monkey's Paw catch is a powerful and potentially very useful thing. It's not something that should be wasted, or underutilized, especially given Madoka's current situation.

I'll be very disappointed in Madoka, and think lowly of her intelligence, if she becomes a magical girl through Kyubey, and doesn't make a very good wish while doing so.

Now if Madoka chooses not to become a magical girl with Kyubey, then so be it. I wouldn't fault her for choosing not to contract with him. But if she does contract with him, it would be foolish of her to not try to make the most out of a bad situation, imo.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Hah, right. A lot of people ask why can't Madoka wish for "I wish all of this never happened", making me think that the system can't grant things that are so abstract and vague.

Well, something that vague might be a problem, sure.

But something like "I wish that magical girls would never again turn into witches", or "I wish that Homura had never become a Puella Magi". Those are pretty specific wishes.