2012-04-07, 18:37 | Link #121 | |
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As was hypothesized in the opening post of this thread, late-night anime is designed primarily to sell merchandise to hardcore anime fans; the type who, indeed, are more likely to understand the in-jokes. If they were aiming for the "non-fan", they probably wouldn't air it like an infomercial when most people are asleep.
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2012-04-07, 18:48 | Link #122 |
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I really loved Steins Gate a lot but I do think the heavy amount of Otaku "in jokes" were unfortunate.
I think SG was one of the best sci-fi stories I've seen in awhile (and this includes live action) but those Otaku jokes in the first half definitely create a barrier to entry.
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2012-04-07, 19:00 | Link #124 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Paniponidash had so many "insider" jokes and references, some fansubbers put out separate guides to all the ones they could spot... yet the average viewer still found the episodes funny or at least absurd
Nothing wrong with 'easter eggs' like that as long as the superficial 'funny' doesn't hinge on them. Looney Toons (Bugs Bunny) are still quite funny though probably half the gags are lost on modern viewers (references to popular culture of the 30s, 40s and 50s).
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2012-04-07, 19:14 | Link #125 | |
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My own view is similar to Kirarakim's - I loved Steins;Gate, but the in-jokes could get a bit heavy at times, and it's a fair criticism to make. Still, I felt that the general wittiness of Steins;Gate largely made up for this.
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2012-04-07, 19:25 | Link #126 | |
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I got most of the jokes because I am familiar with anime culture (I even found some of them amusing) but I think the series would have been better without them frankly. That's just me.
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2012-04-07, 20:24 | Link #127 | |
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Steins;gate 2channeler humor
2ch is my main hang out on the net, and I love 2ch humor and otaku humor, so I had a blast with that in STEINS;GATE.
Also enjoyed that sort of stuff in other things, e.g. OreImo and Haganai, and Komugi-chan back in the day. But I can understand people reacting coldly to it, like "Oh gee, internet memes. Am I supposed to laugh now?" You can find posts on 2ch itself from people saying "It would have been masterpiece if only they'd dropped the obnoxious 2ch jokes." like this: http://logsoku.com/thread/engawa.2ch...1329131509/142 But personally I'm a sucker for it. And I'm part of the group that buys (Japanese) BDs, so...there ya go I guess. Quote:
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2012-04-07, 20:45 | Link #128 | |
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I didn't necessarily say those jokes are offensive, they aren't (which by the way I do find T&A fanservice a bit so I found that comparison a little off but well that is neither here or there). I also don't understand the argument that I am denying good shows for fans of Otaku humor. I am not saying get rid of all shows with Otaku humor but when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche and could have wider appeal than in my opinion it might be better to sacrifice the niche element (of course in this case the niche fandom is spending the money so I understand why it's not sacrificed in actual practice).
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Last edited by Kirarakim; 2012-04-07 at 20:59. |
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2012-04-07, 21:22 | Link #130 | |||
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The thing with in-jokes is that it's fine to have a little bit of them, but going heavy on it is generally the wrong way to go, imo, unless your show's whole point is being a spoof/referential comedy show (something like Excel Saga or Lucky Star, say). Quote:
It's a question of balance. You know, it surprises me that with an entertainment industry that puts out well over 100 shows a year that some people seem to be seriously worried that if a few more shows are aimed at a more mainstream and/or foreign audience that there won't be anything left for niche and/or domestic (i.e. Japanese) audiences. Nintendo made a point to aim for a broader, more casual gamer audience with a lot of its recent products (such as the Wii, the DS, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Wii Fit, etc...), but that didn't mean hardcore gamers no longer had plenty of games for them as well (largely thanks to Sony and Microsoft). Why couldn't anime be the same way? Who would be hurt by having a few shows per year for people who want another Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo or Ghost in the Shell? There'd still be plenty of shows that more hardcore/modern anime fans are into. Again, this is a medium that puts out over 100 shows a year. It's eminently possible to have a large chunk for hardcore/niche audiences, and still have some for a broader/more mainstream audience. Quote:
Should ecchi fanservice go away entirely? No, but nor does it always help an anime show, either.
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2012-04-07, 21:45 | Link #131 | |
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You're laying a "claim" to whatever elements you consider to be non-niche and saying they should never be used in a niche show. That puts a limit on what any show containing the niche element is allowed to do. |
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2012-04-07, 21:58 | Link #132 | |
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In other words: some people sometimes assume that, by removing certain elements, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain... but I think that's a pretty myopic view. If it were really that clean-cut, I'm sure the people whose very livelihoods depends on making anime as popular and profitable as possible would probably have already figured that out. As always, pontificating is easy, profiting is hard.
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2012-04-07, 22:08 | Link #133 | |
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I used the specific wording, "this was good enough to stand on its own." That wording implies that T&A is something that only belongs in shows that are not good. That's different than the opinion of, "this particular show would work better without this." Although it's actually kind of funny the conversation wound up this way, because Kirarakim's original comment, "I think the series would have been better without them frankly" actually does fit the pattern you're talking about, and my comment on it was out of the blue. (Sorry, Kirarakim. In retrospect I'm not sure why I went off on that one.) But then his follow-up comment, "when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche...it might be better to sacrifice the niche element" actually demonstrated the thing I was talking about heh. Last edited by Asf; 2012-04-07 at 22:21. |
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2012-04-07, 22:12 | Link #134 | |
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I could have done without the naked hugging sequence in the OP, too. Even if the girls were portrayed in the "clean" way, without nipples, it seemed designed to add a hint of yuri to a show where the plotline didn't require it. And before I get branded as a prude, I'll just say that Shinbo directed one of my favorite hentai shows back in the days when he was doing that sort of thing.
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2012-04-07, 22:27 | Link #135 | |
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Asf let me explain further I don't think Otaku in jokes or other niche elements should not appear in a series. But I think Steins Gate went a little overboard with these elements in the first half of the show. Unfortunately this makes the series a barrier for entry for anyone not familiar with Otaku in jokes. I am not saying Otaku in jokes are bad necessarily but not everyone is going to get them. And well I do think Steins Gate is a type of series that could of had wider appeal because of the well written science fiction aspect. Yes if people just watched and got through the earlier episodes they would realize this but unfortunately unless you are a seasoned anime fan you are probably not going to do this. So your question is should niche elements not be in "good shows" well that doesn't make sense to me. Why can't the show be a great niche show in itself? But I think the issue is Steins Gate is mixing Otaku humor with dramatic science fiction. At least for me the two elements didn't mix so well.
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2012-04-07, 22:50 | Link #136 | |
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Yeah, a show can certainly be both good and have T&A in it. It's largely a question of what the show is aiming for overall. I know some people might disagree with me, but I consider Aquarion EVOL a pretty good show. It might not be great, but it has pretty good character drama and a decent overarching plot, imo. And ecchi fanservice fits perfectly with the overall atmosphere and tone of Aquarion EVOL. For that show, it adds a nice spice and style to everything.
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2012-04-07, 22:54 | Link #137 | |
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This is why the whole "keep all your <x> out of my <y> show" is a bit of a dead-end argument. It's an <xy> show. I recognize that the follow-up to this is "but they don't make enough shows in the one genre while there are plenty of shows already in the other" but this is basically just blaming the market for what it chooses to buy. It's lamentable, but what can you do? The only hope is that perhaps the popularity of the <xy> hybrid will encourage them to make more shows that focus on the less-common part on its own too. Again, that isn't by any means trying to say that anyone has to like the blend of elements in a show. Opinions are what they are.
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2012-04-07, 22:58 | Link #138 | |
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2012-04-07, 22:58 | Link #139 | |
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You wrote "a few more shows" which no one's going to have an issue with, but these conversations tend to be driven by a lot of "anime is nothing but moe now! they need to get rid of all of that!" hyperbole and "oh yeah well I like moe got a problem?" and "no it isn't anime hasn't changed a bit in 20 years" etc. etc. Of course this thread, as several people pointed out, was weird to begin with because we couldn't tell what actual common characteristics the OP was looking at to link those particular shows. |
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2012-04-07, 23:04 | Link #140 | |
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Steins Gate is a great show but it is a great show with unfortunately a barrier to entry.
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