Why shows like Baccano, Samurai Champloo etc. not produced anymore?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by synaesthetic

Steins;Gate is a prime example of this. The artwork is good. The voice acting is good. The story itself is fairly interesting. However, the crushing weight of all the otaku tropes kept me from enjoying the show.

Way too many jokes went over my head. I was left sitting there going "huuhwut?" way too much. It's like, unless you're a regular on 4chan, you won't get half the jokes. How the hell is this even funded? What kind of investors would even put money into this?

Well, this is a bit of an obvious answer, but given that Steins;Gate was one of the top-selling anime of the last year, one might conclude that we might get more shows like it going forward (and Robotic;Notes is already lined up for an anime this Fall, announced even before the game was released). The investors that fund it are those who want to sell more games, music, anime Blu-Rays/DVDs, and other merchandise.

As was hypothesized in the opening post of this thread, late-night anime is designed primarily to sell merchandise to hardcore anime fans; the type who, indeed, are more likely to understand the in-jokes. If they were aiming for the "non-fan", they probably wouldn't air it like an infomercial when most people are asleep.

[Kirarakim]

I really loved Steins Gate a lot but I do think the heavy amount of Otaku "in jokes" were unfortunate.

I think SG was one of the best sci-fi stories I've seen in awhile (and this includes live action) but those Otaku jokes in the first half definitely create a barrier to entry.

[Dhomochevsky]

Unless of course you understood them, in which case they were really funny and not a barrier at all...

[Vexx]

Paniponidash had so many "insider" jokes and references, some fansubbers put out separate guides to all the ones they could spot... yet the average viewer still found the episodes funny or at least absurd

Nothing wrong with 'easter eggs' like that as long as the superficial 'funny' doesn't hinge on them. Looney Toons (Bugs Bunny) are still quite funny though probably half the gags are lost on modern viewers (references to popular culture of the 30s, 40s and 50s).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Unless of course you understood them, in which case they were really funny and not a barrier at all...

Actually, understanding an in-joke is not the same as finding it funny. It's possible to understand an in-joke and not find it funny.

My own view is similar to Kirarakim's - I loved Steins;Gate, but the in-jokes could get a bit heavy at times, and it's a fair criticism to make. Still, I felt that the general wittiness of Steins;Gate largely made up for this.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky

Unless of course you understood them, in which case they were really funny and not a barrier at all...

Unfortunate if I ever wanted to show my friends who I think would really enjoy Steins Gate's science fiction aspect (and the great female character of Kurisu) probably wouldn't be able to get through the earlier episodes because of in jokes & they would never get to see the great science fiction.

I got most of the jokes because I am familiar with anime culture (I even found some of them amusing) but I think the series would have been better without them frankly. That's just me.

[Asf]

2ch is my main hang out on the net, and I love 2ch humor and otaku humor, so I had a blast with that in STEINS;GATE.
Also enjoyed that sort of stuff in other things, e.g. OreImo and Haganai, and Komugi-chan back in the day.

But I can understand people reacting coldly to it, like "Oh gee, internet memes. Am I supposed to laugh now?"
You can find posts on 2ch itself from people saying "It would have been masterpiece if only they'd dropped the obnoxious 2ch jokes."
like this: http://logsoku.com/thread/engawa.2ch...1329131509/142

But personally I'm a sucker for it.
And I'm part of the group that buys (Japanese) BDs, so...there ya go I guess.

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Unfortunate if I ever wanted to show my friends who I think would really enjoy Steins Gate's science fiction aspect (and the great female character of Kurisu) probably wouldn't be able to get through the earlier episodes because of in jokes & they would never get to see the great science fiction.

Thing is, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, you're saying that people who enjoy niche things (or things that might be offputting to certain groups of people) in their entertainment should never be allowed to have good entertainment. It reminds me of people saying, "such-and-such show was good enough to stand on its own; it's too bad they had to put T&A fanservice in it" which is effectively telling people who like T&A in their shows that they shouldn't ever get to have good shows.

[Kirarakim]

Thing is, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, you're saying that people who enjoy niche things (or things that might be offputting to certain groups of people) in their entertainment should never be allowed to have good entertainment. It reminds me of people saying, "such-and-such show was good enough to stand on its own; it's too bad they had to put T&A fanservice in it" which is effectively telling people who like T&A in their shows that they shouldn't ever get to have good shows.

I am just saying that the Otaku jokes in Steins Gate are an extreme barrier to entry for anyone who doesn't get Otaku in jokes. Granted Steins Gate's target audience is Otaku, I get that. But yes I do think it is a shame that a great show like Steins Gate is going to have limited appeal because of those in jokes.

I didn't necessarily say those jokes are offensive, they aren't (which by the way I do find T&A fanservice a bit so I found that comparison a little off but well that is neither here or there).

I also don't understand the argument that I am denying good shows for fans of Otaku humor. I am not saying get rid of all shows with Otaku humor but when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche and could have wider appeal than in my opinion it might be better to sacrifice the niche element (of course in this case the niche fandom is spending the money so I understand why it's not sacrificed in actual practice).

[Eragon]

Hate to be party pooper , but when did this become a Steins;Gate discussion thread?

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Asf

You can find posts on 2ch itself from people saying "It would have been masterpiece if only they'd dropped the obnoxious 2ch jokes."
like this: http://logsoku.com/thread/engawa.2ch...1329131509/142

Well, there you go. Like I wrote, people can understand an in-joke and still not find it funny.

The thing with in-jokes is that it's fine to have a little bit of them, but going heavy on it is generally the wrong way to go, imo, unless your show's whole point is being a spoof/referential comedy show (something like Excel Saga or Lucky Star, say).

Thing is, if you take this to it's logical conclusion, you're saying that people who enjoy niche things (or things that might be offputting to certain groups of people) in their entertainment should never be allowed to have good entertainment.

It's a question of balance.

You know, it surprises me that with an entertainment industry that puts out well over 100 shows a year that some people seem to be seriously worried that if a few more shows are aimed at a more mainstream and/or foreign audience that there won't be anything left for niche and/or domestic (i.e. Japanese) audiences.


Nintendo made a point to aim for a broader, more casual gamer audience with a lot of its recent products (such as the Wii, the DS, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Wii Fit, etc...), but that didn't mean hardcore gamers no longer had plenty of games for them as well (largely thanks to Sony and Microsoft).

Why couldn't anime be the same way? Who would be hurt by having a few shows per year for people who want another Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo or Ghost in the Shell? There'd still be plenty of shows that more hardcore/modern anime fans are into.

Again, this is a medium that puts out over 100 shows a year. It's eminently possible to have a large chunk for hardcore/niche audiences, and still have some for a broader/more mainstream audience.

It reminds me of people saying, "such-and-such show was good enough to stand on its own; it's too bad they had to put T&A fanservice in it" which is effectively telling people who like T&A in their shows that they shouldn't ever get to have good shows.

No, it's not effectively telling people that. It's simply a person arguing that this one particular show would have been better off without ecchi fanservice. And it some cases, that's a perfectly valid argument. My own opinion is that some anime shows are better off with out ecchi fanservice, or would be better off without it or with less of it (off the top of my head, I honestly think a lot of ecchi fanservice would have ruined Madoka Magica; just killed its atmosphere/mood almost entirely).

Should ecchi fanservice go away entirely? No, but nor does it always help an anime show, either.

[Asf]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I also don't understand the argument that I am denying good shows for fans of Otaku humor. I am not saying get rid of all shows with Otaku humor but when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche and could have wider appeal than in my opinion it might be better to sacrifice the niche element (of course in this case the niche fandom is spending the money so I understand why it's not sacrificed in actual practice).

The bolded part is what I'm talking about.
You're laying a "claim" to whatever elements you consider to be non-niche and saying they should never be used in a niche show.
That puts a limit on what any show containing the niche element is allowed to do.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Asf

You're laying a "claim" to whatever elements you consider to be non-niche and saying they should never be used in a niche show.
That puts a limit on what any show containing the niche element is allowed to do.

Yes, because you can't only say that the show has mainstream potential but is limited by niche elements. It's also that it's a niche show that has other elements to broaden its appeal within that niche. That's the nature of a cross-over. Besides, the show already has a considerable audience in the form of fans of the original game; it probably wouldn't have been chosen if it wasn't appealing enough as it is. So someone could certainly have an opinion that a show would be more appealing to them if favoured certain elements over others. They can also speculate that others they know would be more likely to be more interested if that were the case. But we can never know if such a change would really make the work more popular or profitable than it would have otherwise been on the whole, especially when we're talking about one of the last year's best-sellers in the first place.

In other words: some people sometimes assume that, by removing certain elements, there's nothing to lose and everything to gain... but I think that's a pretty myopic view. If it were really that clean-cut, I'm sure the people whose very livelihoods depends on making anime as popular and profitable as possible would probably have already figured that out. As always, pontificating is easy, profiting is hard.

[Asf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

No, it's not effectively telling people that. It's simply a person arguing that this one particular show would have been better off without ecchi fanservice.

We're not quite talking about the same thing
I used the specific wording, "this was good enough to stand on its own."
That wording implies that T&A is something that only belongs in shows that are not good.
That's different than the opinion of, "this particular show would work better without this."


Although it's actually kind of funny the conversation wound up this way, because Kirarakim's original comment, "I think the series would have been better without them frankly" actually does fit the pattern you're talking about, and my comment on it was out of the blue. (Sorry, Kirarakim. In retrospect I'm not sure why I went off on that one.)

But then his follow-up comment, "when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche...it might be better to sacrifice the niche element" actually demonstrated the thing I was talking about heh.

[SeijiSensei]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

(off the top of my head, I honestly think a lot of ecchi fanservice would have ruined Madoka Magica; just killed its atmosphere/mood almost entirely).

I found it bothersome that Shinbo seemed to feel the need to have below-skirt-level camera angles in Madoka. There were a number of long lingering pans up the girls' legs to their hemlines that seemed to serve little purpose other than fanservice. They certainly didn't add anything to the presentation of the story itself. I would have been even more annoyed had we been shown their panties.

I could have done without the naked hugging sequence in the OP, too. Even if the girls were portrayed in the "clean" way, without nipples, it seemed designed to add a hint of yuri to a show where the plotline didn't require it.

And before I get branded as a prude, I'll just say that Shinbo directed one of my favorite hentai shows back in the days when he was doing that sort of thing.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Asf

But then his follow-up comment, "when you mix a niche with something that doesn't have to be so niche...it might be better to sacrifice the niche element" actually demonstrated the thing I was talking about heh.

I am actually a she

Asf let me explain further I don't think Otaku in jokes or other niche elements should not appear in a series. But I think Steins Gate went a little overboard with these elements in the first half of the show. Unfortunately this makes the series a barrier for entry for anyone not familiar with Otaku in jokes.

I am not saying Otaku in jokes are bad necessarily but not everyone is going to get them. And well I do think Steins Gate is a type of series that could of had wider appeal because of the well written science fiction aspect. Yes if people just watched and got through the earlier episodes they would realize this but unfortunately unless you are a seasoned anime fan you are probably not going to do this.

So your question is should niche elements not be in "good shows" well that doesn't make sense to me. Why can't the show be a great niche show in itself? But I think the issue is Steins Gate is mixing Otaku humor with dramatic science fiction. At least for me the two elements didn't mix so well.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Asf

We're not quite talking about the same thing
I used the specific wording, "this was good enough to stand on its own."
That wording implies that T&A is something that only belongs in shows that are not good.
That's different than the opinion of, "this particular show would work better without this."

Ok, I see your point now. We were coming at the issue from two different directions.

Yeah, a show can certainly be both good and have T&A in it. It's largely a question of what the show is aiming for overall.

I know some people might disagree with me, but I consider Aquarion EVOL a pretty good show. It might not be great, but it has pretty good character drama and a decent overarching plot, imo. And ecchi fanservice fits perfectly with the overall atmosphere and tone of Aquarion EVOL. For that show, it adds a nice spice and style to everything.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

So your question is should niche elements not be in "good shows" well that doesn't make sense to me. Why can't the show be a great niche show in itself? But I think the issue is Steins Gate is mixing Otaku humor with dramatic science fiction. At least for me the two elements didn't mix so well.

Well, of course you can have an opinion that the two elements don't mix well for your tastes. But I think the objective of the production was in fact to have a blend of these two elements; that's the sort of "cross-over" show that it is. It's a great niche show because it combines these two elements, and wouldn't be a better niche show without it. The appeal is to have the otaku humour within a dramatic sci-fi setting and vice-versa (just like the appeal of Infinite Stratos, for example, is to have mecha within a romance/harem setting and vice-versa). Having these otherwise uncommon blends is what makes the show unique (but also makes them sometimes controversial).

This is why the whole "keep all your <x> out of my <y> show" is a bit of a dead-end argument. It's an <xy> show. I recognize that the follow-up to this is "but they don't make enough shows in the one genre while there are plenty of shows already in the other" but this is basically just blaming the market for what it chooses to buy. It's lamentable, but what can you do? The only hope is that perhaps the popularity of the <xy> hybrid will encourage them to make more shows that focus on the less-common part on its own too.

Again, that isn't by any means trying to say that anyone has to like the blend of elements in a show. Opinions are what they are.

[Eragon]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

It's a question of balance.

You know, it surprises me that with an entertainment industry that puts out well over 100 shows a year that some people seem to be seriously worried that if a few more shows are aimed at a more mainstream and/or foreign audience that there won't be anything left for niche and/or domestic (i.e. Japanese) audiences.


Nintendo made a point to aim for a broader, more casual gamer audience with a lot of its recent products (such as the Wii, the DS, New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Wii Fit, etc...), but that didn't mean hardcore gamers no longer had plenty of games for them as well (largely thanks to Sony and Microsoft).

Why couldn't anime be the same way? Who would be hurt by having a few shows per year for people who want another Cowboy Bebop or Samurai Champloo or Ghost in the Shell? There'd still be plenty of shows that more hardcore/modern anime fans are into.

Again, this is a medium that puts out over 100 shows a year. It's eminently possible to have a large chunk for hardcore/niche audiences, and still have some for a broader/more mainstream audience.

Nicely put there Triple_R. Sadly, people are gonna use the argument that studios won't take a risk with such anime's because of fears of complete failure despite the fact that they produce at least more than a few train-wrecks every year. Or outright deny that there are lack of such shows. It seems fans of recent shows are too defensive about what they watch for God knows what reason.

[Asf]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You know, it surprises me that with an entertainment industry that puts out well over 100 shows a year that some people seem to be seriously worried that if a few more shows are aimed at a more mainstream and/or foreign audience that there won't be anything left for niche and/or domestic (i.e. Japanese) audiences.

Ah yeah, heh heh. People love to talk in extremes.
You wrote "a few more shows" which no one's going to have an issue with, but these conversations tend to be driven by a lot of "anime is nothing but moe now! they need to get rid of all of that!" hyperbole and "oh yeah well I like moe got a problem?" and "no it isn't anime hasn't changed a bit in 20 years" etc. etc.

Of course this thread, as several people pointed out, was weird to begin with because we couldn't tell what actual common characteristics the OP was looking at to link those particular shows.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

Again, that isn't by any means trying to say that anyone has to like the blend of elements in a show. Opinions are what they are.

Well I should point out that the Otaku humor didn't ruin Steins Gate for me personally (it's still in my top 5 series of 2011) but as I said I would never be able to show this great show to my friends because well they would never get past the early episodes & that is a bit a shame.

Steins Gate is a great show but it is a great show with unfortunately a barrier to entry.