2012-06-28, 00:26 | Link #21 |
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For patent/copyright supporters... except maintaining the status quo, is there any argument to support them... and let me be extremely simplistic about it... should copyright law apply in 10000 BC we would have to pay in order to legally talk to each other... or 40000 BC pay for the patent of breathing
Now a little bit more seriously, for insignificant matters these laws are not problematic, but what concerns common good, like inventions, art, literature, limiting accessibility can only lead to oligarchies first, and totalitarianism later... independent of what ideological cover they take. |
2012-06-28, 01:02 | Link #22 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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For a new drug, for example, we're talking about dozens or hundreds of millions of dollars upfront, before you can even think of trying to get it patented. And the whole thing can and often does fail before you get to that point. Without patents and their licensing fees, they'll have to resort to just trying to keep stuff secret, when it's doable - that means, actually, less sharing. When it's not, they'll resort to not researching at all. Copyright's iffier. People will create for free. The complete end of copyright might spell the end of blockbuster movies... or anime... or big concerts... but there'll still be plenty of entertainment available. And of course there's all that's already existing, far greater than what could consume in a single life. |
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2012-06-28, 01:03 | Link #23 | |
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You completely assume the progress is a static reality, but it is not. These things, which we may take for granted, do not just appear out of thin air. That's why certain eras have much more progress than others. "intellectual communism" would only work if everyone who invents an idea is willing to not be rewarded. Yeah, maybe, when we all stop being actual human beings. EDIT: what Anh says.
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2012-06-28, 01:17 | Link #24 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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One patents devices or plans for devices - the US erred when it decided that practices and algorithms were "patentable". Last I checked, hardly anyone else allows that kind of patent.
One has a *reasonable* length of time for copyright - currently copyright is fundamentally broken. Trademarks seem to be in relatively good shape. "Intellectual property" is a stupid hypothesis, the idea that an idea can be "owned" when the instant it is exposed it is replicated. It is an indication of what was a temporary blip on innovation when some corporations were able to act as content gatekeepers and make a profit off of the creators and the consumers.
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2012-06-28, 02:26 | Link #25 |
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But Vexx, it's catch 22.
We have seen many instances in human history, where a briliiant inventor could not get his idea funded or popularized, and the man dies in poverty... only to be appreciated way later. Corporations may gain fortune off a man's idea, but without the large support of the corporation, there's little chance the man could have elevated his work to such high degree on his own. The concept is benefitial to both parties. It's easy to say, a record company is "stealing profits" the cretor deserves. A man write a song that can potentially be a world-wide hit. Is he on his own to get it off the ground then? Print CDs on his own investment, and try to promote them to each and every retailers? What if the man is simply an artist, and has no talent in business? A distributor such as a record company is a necessary entity for his success. It's all a matter of "how much". How much stake should be in the investment, and how much return each party should recieve. The whole idea of utopian society where people work hard simply "for the better of humanity", as Gene Roddenberry dreamd, is unfortunately a broken idea. Our primal motive is for self preservation and prosperity. That buddha-level enlightment is simply not realistic.
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2012-06-28, 02:48 | Link #26 | |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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OTOH, I'm entirely against the bogus hypothesis of "intellectual property". Its a term that never existed in law and is an attempt to conflate very different concepts in real property and the three bodies of law in patent/trademark/copyright.
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2012-06-28, 03:00 | Link #27 |
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Oh, of course not.
I think the margin of return is skewed, and should be addressed. I'm just hesitent to go as far as what a lot of people believe, that everything should be public property and shared with no return to the creator. That's what a lot of people are proposing, and only thing that will lead to is destruction of content, and complete halting of progress. I will go ahead and open a can of worm and say, many use this as an excuse to "justify" their actions.
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2012-06-28, 03:30 | Link #28 |
Did someone call a doctor
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 40
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Personally I find the idea of a musician *needing* record companies to be successful these days to be borderline absurd. There are many professional artists these days that go out on their own without a record companies backing, even going so far as to start their own little label (with one or two other bands). This is to say nothing of the impact of the internet. With the ease of sharing stuff these days new artists can start up a site (ie. Facebook) to host their own songs like many indy artists, and rely of word of mouth over the net (and programs like Triple J's: Unearthed, down here in Australia) to spread the word.
Record companies will try and say and promote differently however, since it means less money for them otherwise. I'm fine with creators getting money, and distributors to an extent as well. However the distributors dislike the internet because it is far to fluid and they don't have the control over their products like they used to. The products people want these days are not physical and these distributors for whatever reason, ignorance maybe, have failed to adapt. Far as I'm concerned, Darwinism should apply to these companies as well. They failed or are in the process of and now they can make way for someone else. edit: if this doesn't make sense, its because I've been driving all day and I'm le tired.
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2012-06-28, 07:09 | Link #29 |
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@aohige/anh_minh/vexx: If witnessing a problematic situation and understanding that it leads to a dead end, does not justify taking action, then what does? Divine (or enlightened) intervention? We know where that has lead historically.
Also the concept of intellectual property is rendered in practice useless. It's not a matter of belief, rather one of adaptation and evolution. There are new mediums and lawmakers are funded and by certain interests to fit them in their own old business models. Conceptually this is against the principles of competition and free market, as well as a conservative approach, which like any other of its kind attempts to withhold progress, and promote useless oligarchies. Before copyright, patent, and all that jazz, innovation had the same pace, and was more accessible from the masses. On the other hand, the commercialization of science and engineering has created an array of problems that lead into many failures, financial included. Companies these days spent way more resources into having the legal right to use certain technologies, rather than into inventing new ones or perfecting existing ones. Same is true for art. Almost all band I used to like established themselves in underground scenes, broke into mainstream for a few years and then either turned back into the underground scene for stable financial support or jointly founded small independent labels. On the other hand, very crappy mass produced artists have risen and fallen within large record labels producing very bad quality music, earning their employers a shitload of money, and the individuals disappeared in poverty. Live action movies... USA had an amazing underground/independent film scene, almost unknown to its local population and currently crushed by competition. TL;DR: I can simply not think of a single creative process, that has not degenerated when money became the motivation for work. Limiting copyright/patent to the individual is a feasible and realistic painkiller the current downward spiral, but eventually abolishing these concepts from any productive process will be necessary to evade the inevitable decay they are generating. |
2012-06-28, 15:09 | Link #30 | |||||||||
I disagree with you all.
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And technology? Nowadays, you need countless man hours of highly educated people to make a new gizmo. Sure, governments fund a lot of fundamental research, but there's already not enough money for everyone. And you want them to fund the next iPhone, too? |
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2012-06-28, 15:59 | Link #31 | ||||||||
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So patents and copyrights that you try to defend are ends, not means Quote:
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2012-06-28, 17:15 | Link #32 |
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Malkuth, your problem with this... fantasy world you envision, is you raise concerns of a problem but offers no solid solutions.
None of your ideas hold any realistic value, and you're simply expecting humanity to be enlightended. Ain't happenin' bro. It's like crying about capitalism, but criticize socialism, cry foul of human greed, yet have nothing to offer in exchange. Complaining is so much easier than actual innovating, and innovation is exactly what the current subject is.
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2012-06-28, 17:22 | Link #33 | |
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And I prefer these fantasies to the alternative of defending a decadent system |
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2012-06-28, 17:24 | Link #35 | |||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Software's a strange animal in that it's not only possible but common to make money just by tailoring existing work precisely to the need of a particular client. And in that a lot of the innovation can be done quite cheaply, by hobbyists. Quote:
- no research. - if and where they can get away with it, companies will just keep their formulas and processes secret. It's sad that people are dying, but get real: if there was no money in it, almost nobody would get into pharmaceutical research. Nobody would build the expensive machinery that's necessary for it. Nobody would pay for the animals or people new drugs are tested on. Sure, there'll still be money in drug making. And yes, the prices of some drugs (those that aren't already in the public domain) would plummet. But the actual research? It'd grind to halt. Quote:
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It will also destroy the major incentive for investing (you know, spend money up front and risk having it not pan out...) on, basically, being the first to make something different. Bragging rights are all very nice, but they don't pay the bills. Especially when the other guy has a bigger advertising budget and can just rewrite history. Quote:
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2012-06-28, 17:36 | Link #36 |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Malkuth, you do realize, BECAUSE the human race is a human race, and not the race of Saints, your proposal will not bring about actual utopia.
Instead, your "ideas" would do nothing but bring us back to the dark ages of authoritarian rule and cast of massive division in standard of living. You may consider this current era hell, but your alternative would bring true hell back on Earth. Private innovations will instead be held in secrecy with no laws to protect them. Research that requires massive amount of R&D will not be funded by private entites, since there will be no return from it, and only the government would have the capability of funding such R&D. The world's private progress will come to a halt, and humanity will delve back into the dark ages of the past. Some paradise.
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2012-06-28, 17:54 | Link #37 |
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@aohige: Interesting... you perceive the entirety of human history minus the last century or so as science fiction
Also I don't assume humans to be saints, but also not demons that their only objective in life is to see other humans being miserable, like you do. All corporations are not evil, all governments are not totalitarian, and a lot of humans do not live their lives with the sole objective of acquiring material wealth. @Ahn_Mihn: First of all, like aohige, you also ignore the fact that technology and innovation thrived before patents and copyright... even without the motivation of money or support of the state. For the alternative to the current decadence caused by those two ends is to limit both of them to actual people, stop reselling, renting, licensing, etc. After half a century of commercialism, I obviously don't expect every human to act selflessly, but at least it will minimize the need for humans whose only goal is to legally steal and cheat. Also many medicine, surgery, and other practices developed outside the patent system and had greater impact to human welfare and lifespan than the multimillion research currently funded. And don't forget that any policy, law, ideology, etc. has as an objective the benefit of the many. Patents and copyright by nature as either means or ends try and succeed in achieving exactly the opposite. You also worry about that without patents, there will be no incentive for innovation and research. Leaving aside the thousands of years of human history that you conveniently choose to ignore, as well as the fact you're labeling an exception every contemporary example I brought up; the process is rather simple. With patents and copyright not being resealable, each individual will be sought after to work with and not for the investor, gaining exactly what he deserves, and the investor will be forced into a more productive role because he will need the person. Without the burden of the whole law altogether, investors will be forced to fund research either by institutions or individuals as well as employ the personnel that can actually produce and work with the now "secret" patents, instead bloat corporation with unproductive leeches that their only job is to lie and manipulate. |
2012-06-28, 17:56 | Link #38 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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No, I don't.
You obviously did not understand what I said, becuase it's quite the opposite. I'm saying, science fiction, such as STAR TREK (do you even know what that is?) is unrealistic. Instead, the past human history, is REALITY. You seriously think we were better off in standard of living centuries ago? You'd RATHER have those dark ages back? YOU THINK WE LIVED IN UTOPIA? *mind is boggled* At least the Bible crazies think Garden of Adam and Eve was in ancient times, not the middle ages. This is worse. Quote:
You think Romans lived in utopia? That their knowlege was NOT controlled by the states? You think the technologies developed by guilds were ideal? That they shared their knowledge like some kind of merciful saints? Seriously? You really believe this? That human race were some sort of kind, gentle entities that shared their wealth and knowlege with everyone? Go study human history, and not some fantasy novels, and come back to us.
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2012-06-28, 18:09 | Link #40 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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What Aohige said.
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And truthfully, I'm not sure it's even an exception. Without patents and copyright, the amount of man hours poured into the development of new stuff may well fall. |
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