AnimeSuki Forums

Renall · 2011-02-15, 18:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dlanor .A. Nox

The first four arcs were really good reads once it got to the latter of the Chiru it felt extremely corny and depleted. I really didn't like the Magic ending the trick ending was alright but once I seen Ange's orphanage or whatever I thought it was like a cult to Beatrice or something now. It felt like indoctrination to me with Ange spreading that magic message.

Wow, that's..... really sinister.

Which one was supposed to be the bad ending, again?

Chron · 2011-02-15, 18:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Renall

Wow, that's..... really sinister.

Which one was supposed to be the bad ending, again?

The one where Ange winds up being rich and happy and not reduced to lunchmeat.

Jan-Poo · 2011-02-15, 19:36

Quote:

Which one was supposed to be the bad ending, again?

The one where she turns into a crazy paranoid killer.

Although the one where she reestablishes the fukuin orphanage to indoctrinate the kids into becoming a lot of mariage sorciere cultist is also kinda scary... especially if you consider that she actually plans to spread her message worldwide with her books (and it's implied she will, since they say she's going to beat... "Haripota" on sales)

Chron · 2011-02-15, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The one where she doesn't turn into a crazy paranoid killer.

Although the one where she reestablishes the fukuin orphangae to indoctrinate the kids into becoming a lot of mariage sorciere cultist is also kinda scary... especially if you consider that she actually plans to spread her message worldwide with her books (and it's implied she will, since they say she's going to beat... "Haripota" on sales)

...

If Ryuukishi announces that the next Umineko VN will be titled "Children of the Cor-...Golden Witch" I'm throwing up my hands and leaving.

Dlanor .A. Nox · 2011-02-16, 00:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chron

The one where Ange winds up being rich and happy and not reduced to lunchmeat.

And ends up with an indoctrinated army of orphans...orphans are the most powerful protagonists authors end up using. Fear the orphans...

AuraTwilight · 2011-02-16, 02:09

To be fair, Ange's not doing anything Kinzo apparently wasn't, mirite?

cmos · 2011-02-16, 03:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The one where she turns into a crazy paranoid killer.

How is she crazy and paranoid again? I bet you would rather let her be killed, so she could be nice and naive girl, but dead, right?
She did probably the best move in that situation. Yeah, it's that kind of cold logic, that Kyrie or Bern would use, I believe, it's called pragmatism. Or maybe pragmatism, when applied to humans, should be called cynicism by common folks. Whatever, the main point is that it works and saves her life.

Bern proclaimed in red that there are no people whom Ange could trust. Gold truth could save you from that thought, but won't save you from their bullets.

Jan-Poo · 2011-02-16, 03:45

We don't actually know if Amakusa was planning to kill her or if he was just going to kill the Sumadera. But insofar I could even accept Ange's behavior, until that point she "might" have been justified enough. Although it is apparent that she discovered the gun and made her reasonings before that scene, which means the murder was premeditated and she had other (better) options to solve the issue, unless she was planning to become Rambo and kill every other man that Okonogi and the Sumadera were going to send after her. So even if it was to save herself, she really made the worst possible decision.

But the real problem I have is the fact she killed Captain Kawabata. Her reasoning there was FAR from being perfect. She had absolutely no real proof that he betrayed her, and even so she was in no immediate danger and therefore she was not justified in killing him.

The icing on the cake is how she doesn't feel any remorse and isn't even slightly bothered by the fact she just took the lives of two men.

She became completely a "witch of truth", but I think it's quite clear that a "witch of truth" is not someone who infallibly finds the truth, but rather someone who makes up her own truth and believes in it with absolute certainty.

P.S:

Please someone make a video with Ange and this song. "lyrical tokarev, kill them all!" That's just perfect.

Renall · 2011-02-16, 09:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

To be fair, Ange's not doing anything Kinzo apparently wasn't, mirite?

She's not raping anybody.

That we know of.

UsagiTenpura · 2011-02-16, 15:00

In contrast with the eversobbing Kinzo, she seems a lot more able to however.

Quote:

She became completely a "witch of truth", but I think it's quite clear that a "witch of truth" is not someone who infallibly finds the truth, but rather someone who makes up her own truth and believes in it with absolute certainty.

I thought being a "witch of truth" was someone who knows the truth and is able to endure it and surpass it, especially after Erika's vision of LD and Bern in arc 6.

Erika didn't know the truth about Umineko, but she knew the truth about her own personal situation and fully endured it and aknowledged it. In contrast she seemed to end up looking down on both Bern and LD for basically escaping/denying reality.
I guess I'd put it as something like "One who learns the truth, accepts it, and yet is still able to escape reality as they please".

AuraTwilight · 2011-02-16, 15:53

Quote:

She's not raping anybody.

That we know of.

So if Toya's not dying in that last scene, who's the Beatrice that's taking hims hand for magical togetherness time?

...Who was the final Beatrice, again?

And isn't Ange a brocon?

Quote:

I thought being a "witch of truth" was someone who knows the truth and is able to endure it and surpass it, especially after Erika's vision of LD and Bern in arc 6.

While it's a good definition, I'm pretty much 100% sure that Erika was deluding herself. She was really depreciating LD and Bern in order to feel better about herself, and had no ability to cope with the truth that A) She is utterly useless and worthless in the eyes of the master she craves the approval of, and B) That she doesn't actually exist.

She "withstood the truth" only by only seeing a truth that gratifies her ego without threatening it.

Quote:

Erika didn't know the truth about Umineko, but she knew the truth about her own personal situation and fully endured it and aknowledged it. In contrast she seemed to end up looking down on both Bern and LD for basically escaping/denying reality.

Did she really accept the truth of her personal situation though? As Dlanor said, "You still have not defeated any of my blues evidencing that I still loved YOU." "Whatever."

Moreover, what reality could Lambda and Bern really be running from? We're told they're running from the fear of the Logic Error, but they're not actually in one, are they? And being Voyagers, they might have literally lost all sense of reality; Bern certainly seems to treat the characters as the fictional entities they are to us and has no grasping that the pieces she plays with are to some extent real people.

Jan-Poo · 2011-02-17, 04:51

I think the major element that show how the "witch of truth" title doesn't apply to someone who actually reaches the real truth is EP5, where Erika receives that title to begin with.

She received that title after framing Natsuhi as the culprit, even though everyone knew that Natsuhi was innocent.

She received that title because she created that truth and she made it quite solid.... not as much as she wished for though...
I guess Erika represents the desire to reach a truth at all costs even when the situation doesn't allow you. It's probably a way to cope with the uncertainty of the reality.

Erika couldn't stand to live in the uncertainty of her boyfriend cheating on her or not. So she reached her own truth: he cheated on her. So the jury declared, despite the lack of conclusive evidence.

That of course doesn't mean that Erika was wrong there. She was probably right, the point is that with human means she could never be completely sure about that. The problem is that because of that, while this "power" grants her peach of mind about her view of the world, it can also cause her to reach false conclusions sometimes... and it also makes her nihilistic.

Ange became like that in the bad ending.

**Klashikari** · 2011-02-17, 05:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

And isn't Ange a brocon?

That's only for fans who are taking "siblings love" to the extreme.
As far as Ange was portrayed, be it adult or child, she is arguably not infatuated by Battler, or really watered down compared to your usual stuff.

Kirroha · 2011-02-17, 08:29

In the manga she was completely borderline brocon, but that wasn't canon.

She's definitely not brocon in the VN. In Ep6, she accepts Beatrice's feelings towards Battler fully, with just some confusion. That's the action of a caring sister, and not somebody in incestuous love.

cmos · 2011-02-17, 08:36

Witch of Truth is not someone who knows truth, but the one who seeks it. Of course, no one says that she couldn't be mistaken about it.
Notice, how in trick ending Ange doesn't accept Bern's truth and goes on a new, infinite journey to find her own truth.
It's the process and intention that is important for that title.

UsagiTenpura · 2011-02-17, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

While it's a good definition, I'm pretty much 100% sure that Erika was deluding herself. She was really depreciating LD and Bern in order to feel better about herself, and had no ability to cope with the truth that A) She is utterly useless and worthless in the eyes of the master she craves the approval of, and B) That she doesn't actually exist.

She "withstood the truth" only by only seeing a truth that gratifies her ego without threatening it.

Did she really accept the truth of her personal situation though? As Dlanor said, "You still have not defeated any of my blues evidencing that I still loved YOU." "Whatever."

Moreover, what reality could Lambda and Bern really be running from? We're told they're running from the fear of the Logic Error, but they're not actually in one, are they? And being Voyagers, they might have literally lost all sense of reality; Bern certainly seems to treat the characters as the fictional entities they are to us and has no grasping that the pieces she plays with are to some extent real people.

Well I don't exactly disagree with you. Basically I believe what you say about Erika is true of her when we first see her, but she does evolves from that point on.

It would be to note that Erika at first wasn't a "witch of truth", later was only a "temporary one" (which implies a temporarily accepted truth doesn't it?). Her real path toward being a witch of truth only occurs in arc 6, which I believe culminated with her final scene when she "died" (in arc 6), at that point she seems to wholly accepts everything, and even gained respect for said truth.

Leafsnail · 2011-02-17, 12:39

For some reason, I'm beginning to see Erika's story about her cheating boyfriend as a proxy for Kyrie. I mean, it'd fit into the "Everything we learn about Kyrie is mystified" pattern...

AuraTwilight · 2011-02-17, 15:55

Quote:

That's only for fans who are taking "siblings love" to the extreme.
As far as Ange was portrayed, be it adult or child, she is arguably not infatuated by Battler, or really watered down compared to your usual stuff.

Perhaps you completely missed that it was a joke theory. I'm not seriously proposing Ange raped a paraplegic old man.

Quote:

It would be to note that Erika at first wasn't a "witch of truth", later was only a "temporary one" (which implies a temporarily accepted truth doesn't it?). Her real path toward being a witch of truth only occurs in arc 6, which I believe culminated with her final scene when she "died" (in arc 6), at that point she seems to wholly accepts everything, and even gained respect for said truth.

Perhaps, but she was just sort of...given the title by Bernkastel at a whim, pretty much. Bern definitely doesn't seem to be aware or considerate enough of Erika's emotional resolve to actually give her a title based on her cathartic accomplishments. Most likely it's just some bullshit term that was given a proper definition later, and the temporary part is because Bern's a bitch like that.

Quote:

For some reason, I'm beginning to see Erika's story about her cheating boyfriend as a proxy for Kyrie. I mean, it'd fit into the "Everything we learn about Kyrie is mystified" pattern...

There IS that theory about Erika being the personification of the negative feelings of all the Ushiromiya women.

Jan-Poo · 2011-02-17, 17:52

Actually Ep8 shows that Ange doesn't really like Beatrice clinging onto Battler.

Beatrice realizing that tells her that she's going to make out with Battler and Ange punishes her by making her disappear and reappear like switching on and of a light bulb.

Of course in the end she accepts that Battler and Beatrice are together, but how is that different from someone who accepts the fact that the person she loves loves someone else?
It is pretty much obvious that Ange is jealous about Battler. Therefore: brocon confirmed.

UsagiTenpura · 2011-02-17, 18:27

More mostly silly ideas but...

Kyrie's automatic jealousy might have had an influence on Ange's behavior. She might basically believe it's normal to be ridiculously possessive with guys, and to see girls as enemies.

Adding to that, her experience from school certainly would add to seeing other girls as enemies.

She was also raised a bit by Eva, who was horrified to the idea that an Ushiromiya could end up with a servant.

Lastly she spent a major part of her life hating Beatrice.

No need for brocon, and I guess in Umineko we shouldn't underestimate kids' idea of "love", but she was only 6 when he was 18.

2011-02-16, 02:09	Link #906
AuraTwilight The True Culprit Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: The Golden Land	To be fair, Ange's not doing anything Kinzo apparently wasn't, mirite? __________________ When the Silent Spirits Cry: An Umineko/Silent Hill crossover fanfiction http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost.php?p=4565173&postcount=531

2011-02-16, 03:45	Link #908
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	We don't actually know if Amakusa was planning to kill her or if he was just going to kill the Sumadera. But insofar I could even accept Ange's behavior, until that point she "might" have been justified enough. Although it is apparent that she discovered the gun and made her reasonings before that scene, which means the murder was premeditated and she had other (better) options to solve the issue, unless she was planning to become Rambo and kill every other man that Okonogi and the Sumadera were going to send after her. So even if it was to save herself, she really made the worst possible decision. But the real problem I have is the fact she killed Captain Kawabata. Her reasoning there was FAR from being perfect. She had absolutely no real proof that he betrayed her, and even so she was in no immediate danger and therefore she was not justified in killing him. The icing on the cake is how she doesn't feel any remorse and isn't even slightly bothered by the fact she just took the lives of two men. She became completely a "witch of truth", but I think it's quite clear that a "witch of truth" is not someone who infallibly finds the truth, but rather someone who makes up her own truth and believes in it with absolute certainty. P.S: Please someone make a video with Ange and this song. "lyrical tokarev, kill them all!" That's just perfect. __________________ Last edited by Jan-Poo; 2011-02-16 at 04:00.

2011-02-17, 04:51	Link #912
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	I think the major element that show how the "witch of truth" title doesn't apply to someone who actually reaches the real truth is EP5, where Erika receives that title to begin with. She received that title after framing Natsuhi as the culprit, even though everyone knew that Natsuhi was innocent. She received that title because she created that truth and she made it quite solid.... not as much as she wished for though... I guess Erika represents the desire to reach a truth at all costs even when the situation doesn't allow you. It's probably a way to cope with the uncertainty of the reality. Erika couldn't stand to live in the uncertainty of her boyfriend cheating on her or not. So she reached her own truth: he cheated on her. So the jury declared, despite the lack of conclusive evidence. That of course doesn't mean that Erika was wrong there. She was probably right, the point is that with human means she could never be completely sure about that. The problem is that because of that, while this "power" grants her peach of mind about her view of the world, it can also cause her to reach false conclusions sometimes... and it also makes her nihilistic. Ange became like that in the bad ending. __________________

2011-02-17, 08:29	Link #914
Kirroha Just... disturbed. Join Date: Dec 2009	In the manga she was completely borderline brocon, but that wasn't canon. She's definitely not brocon in the VN. In Ep6, she accepts Beatrice's feelings towards Battler fully, with just some confusion. That's the action of a caring sister, and not somebody in incestuous love. __________________ Play RE: Prince of Nigeria here!

2011-02-17, 17:52	Link #919
Jan-Poo 別にいいけど Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: forever lost inside a logic error	Actually Ep8 shows that Ange doesn't really like Beatrice clinging onto Battler. Beatrice realizing that tells her that she's going to make out with Battler and Ange punishes her by making her disappear and reappear like switching on and of a light bulb. Of course in the end she accepts that Battler and Beatrice are together, but how is that different from someone who accepts the fact that the person she loves loves someone else? It is pretty much obvious that Ange is jealous about Battler. Therefore: brocon confirmed. __________________

2011-02-17, 08:36	Link #915
cmos Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2010	Witch of Truth is not someone who knows truth, but the one who seeks it. Of course, no one says that she couldn't be mistaken about it. Notice, how in trick ending Ange doesn't accept Bern's truth and goes on a new, infinite journey to find her own truth. It's the process and intention that is important for that title.

2011-02-17, 12:39	Link #917
Leafsnail Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2010	For some reason, I'm beginning to see Erika's story about her cheating boyfriend as a proxy for Kyrie. I mean, it'd fit into the "Everything we learn about Kyrie is mystified" pattern...

2011-02-17, 18:27	Link #920
UsagiTenpura Artist Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Yesterday!	More mostly silly ideas but... Kyrie's automatic jealousy might have had an influence on Ange's behavior. She might basically believe it's normal to be ridiculously possessive with guys, and to see girls as enemies. Adding to that, her experience from school certainly would add to seeing other girls as enemies. She was also raised a bit by Eva, who was horrified to the idea that an Ushiromiya could end up with a servant. Lastly she spent a major part of her life hating Beatrice. No need for brocon, and I guess in Umineko we shouldn't underestimate kids' idea of "love", but she was only 6 when he was 18.