2013-09-20, 15:32 | Link #30761 | |
(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻
Moderator
Join Date: Mar 2006
|
On the topic of message and messenger, people should read this article: http://kotaku.com/going-viral-sucks-1282348530
A warning, some of the pictures are NSFW (foul language). Quote:
__________________
|
|
2013-09-20, 16:37 | Link #30762 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
Anyone claiming it in the manner you speak is playing stupid word games not worthy of any attention. Obama used the word correctly in manner how it's normally used.
__________________
|
|
2013-09-20, 16:49 | Link #30763 |
Senior Member
Author
|
Did you even click the link I provided? It links to an online dictionary definition of "exceptional", and that online dictionary has "5,666,703,026 visitors served". Do you really think such a very widely visited online dictionary would include "Being an exception" to the definition of "exceptional" if the word wasn't frequently used with that meaning?
"He is an exceptional case" does not necessarily mean "He is very good, above normal". It may simply mean "He is unusual... so perhaps the standard rules don't apply to him". So I'm sorry, aohige, but you are simply wrong on this. It's also important to keep in mind the concept of "American exceptionalism", which has fueled a lot of neoconservative thought in recent years, and which has been part of the basis for a lot of US military intervention in many places throughout the world. When a high-ranking American politician talks about his nation being "exceptional", it rubs against that concept of "American exceptionalism" that many people rightly have issue with since it's frequently used to support arguably overreaching American geopolitical/military aims. If you read through some of the quotes provided at that Wiki link, you'll see that the word "exceptional" is frequently used to promote American exceptionalism. Exception, exceptional, exceptionalism... These words are not unrelated in the places of political power and influence in America, and in the world.
__________________
Last edited by Triple_R; 2013-09-20 at 17:01. |
2013-09-20, 16:55 | Link #30764 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
It's used as a simple measurement of QUALITY when you're using it as a mild praise. I seriously think there's a language barrier here. It's rather baffling since it's an extremely commonly used adjective here in the exact mild-mannered compliment in the way he used it. Anyone taking it to mean "AHA! Obama is saying America can go f*** the rules!" is about as silly as those that call him dirty Muslim Commie.
__________________
|
|
2013-09-20, 17:12 | Link #30765 | |
Senior Member
Author
|
Why do you think Anh_Minh wrote this?
Quote:
Why do you think Putin took issue with it? Do you really think Putin cares if Americans feel some pride in their country? No, Putin took issue with it because he knows how "America is exceptional" is a phrase frequently used to support that concept of American exceptionalism, which is a concept that some use to justify America doing things that are apparently unacceptable for other countries (such as holding WMDs... like nukes).
__________________
|
|
2013-09-20, 17:14 | Link #30766 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Or you know, because he's the Russian head of state.
Which goes squarely back to the messenger debate. Curious, do you actually live in America? Because seriously, you're talking about an extremely common word used here, which makes this whole word game completely absurd. Which, I'm sure, Mr Putin is not aware. Oh, and those "some Americans" who play the same game, are equally undeserving of attention.
__________________
Last edited by aohige; 2013-09-20 at 17:42. |
2013-09-20, 17:33 | Link #30767 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
|
What's absurd is you're talking about politics and acting like there's no way anyone could possibly play word games. Seriously, there's no need to get into a multi-page debate about the meaning of a word. Even your own use as "really good" still means exactly what Triple_R is saying. It's different enough to be an exception. The difference is you're seeing that exception as a good thing, but it doesn't have to be.
|
2013-09-20, 17:37 | Link #30768 | |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
Quote:
I'm saying, those who dabble in dumb semantic word games are either rationally challenged, or composing agenda-based speech, and really doesn't warrant an attention in the first place. (in case of Putin, obviously the latter) Whether or not a praise is a good thing or bad is ENTIRELY a different issue.
__________________
Last edited by aohige; 2013-09-20 at 17:48. |
|
2013-09-20, 17:50 | Link #30769 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
You know, despite whatever semantics may tell you, there's also French exceptionalism (everyone's got to be a unique snowflake, right?). In our case, it's more "it'll work if it's us doing it". And, occasionally, "nothing gets done if we don't do it first".
What Putin worries about, or pretends to worry about, and which worries a lot of other people, isn't the strictest interpretation of Obama's speeches. It's how few steps it is from there to thinking the rules don't apply to the US, and how many in America are willing and eager to walk those steps. |
2013-09-20, 17:58 | Link #30770 |
( ಠ_ಠ)
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Somewhere, between the sacred silence and sleep
|
^ That's pretty rich coming from someone who goes "f**k you I'm Vladimir Putin" to any and all rules.
What you say is true about the global politics of America, and he took the opportunity to resonate it with a word. However, this speech in itself and the usage of the word, is rather ordinary in its context, it's looks to me like an opportunistic approach on a rather innocent wording.
__________________
|
2013-09-20, 21:25 | Link #30773 |
books-eater youkai
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Betweem wisdom and insanity
|
U.S. general sees problems, progress in developing Afghan air force
http://ca.reuters.com/article/topNew...98J10G20130920 Chicago shooting shows gap in stepped-up policing http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...09-20-20-58-19
__________________
|
2013-09-21, 05:02 | Link #30774 | ||
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
|
Quote:
So in that same sense, that anonymous message can be understood only if you are providing context, but you also have to keep in mind the intended meaning may not completely align with your own. Quote:
P.S. Wrote this post in a hurry, so I may need to make further clarification..., please feel free to point out the confusing parts in this post... and will also comeback to Maplehurry's post later.
__________________
|
||
2013-09-21, 09:22 | Link #30775 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
Age: 38
|
Quote:
Quote:
I don't know who left the message. The message itself provides context. There's no strings attached, I can see the meter has time on it as per the message. What's not to understand? Not everything needs to be analyzed to the Nth degree. |
||
2013-09-21, 13:46 | Link #30776 | |||||
Love Yourself
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Northeast USA
Age: 38
|
Quote:
Quote:
In that case, the messenger becomes critically important because we're trying to assign weight to the statements and reports. There is the chance that an outright lie is being told, or that data is being falsified or misrepresented. If you understand the messenger and his or her links to the scenario then you are in a better place to make those determinations. Putin taking issue with American exceptionalism doesn't fit with that scenario, though. Why Putin said what he did and what he hoped to accomplish are certainly things that we could determine by examining him as the messenger, but the message itself is no longer about truth or lies. No facts were presented. We only received an idea that is subjectively up to us to accept or deny. At that point, the messenger becomes irrelevant with regard to the message and how we approach it. Just to clarify, I am talking specifically about the idea of American exceptionalism. That's a topic involving - not surprisingly - America, and the concept of exceptionalism. If we want to talk about why the issue was raised at this time, and why it was raised by Russia, then the messenger becomes important. But to discuss those things is to get away from the message itself. Now we're no longer talking about American exceptionalism, but about Russia, Putin, and world events. Quote:
As for McCain's message, while I didn't think that it was outwardly insulting to anyone, I'm not Russian, nor do I have insight into how most Russians feel about their government. My guess is that his letter still upset a number of Russians. It's hard to find anyone that likes to have an outsider criticize the inner workings of their house. As to the weight of their positions, McCain isn't just a senator from Arizona. He's a former presidential candidate and a veteran in American politics, a senator from the most powerful (and from the Russian perspective, arrogant) nation in the world. I doubt that this is the first time that many in Russia have heard his name before. Quote:
So then, what did McCain do? If the media stories and quotes are to be believed, he was offended by Putin's letter and wrote his own letter in an effort to punch back. His letter did not detail anything relating to Syria or our nation's thoughts on the matter, nor did it even address Putin's own letter. Instead, it was a pure criticism of Putin's government. Our elected officials put their hands over their ears, and when the Russians went around them, they pretty much resorted to insults. That is petty. (Note that we are now discussing the messengers, instead of the message. I'll note that just as I had no problem with Putin's message, I have no problem with McCain's.) Quote:
Why does the wording of a citizen matter? I asked if you realistically thought that Putin's message could have been delivered by any American official, or even an American citizen. I've told you my thought that to do so in a discussion with an American believing in American exceptionalism would result in the messenger being labeled as a traitor or what have you. The message would likely be lost.
__________________
|
|||||
2013-09-21, 16:04 | Link #30777 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
Quote:
Take for example, a bunch of Anon posts on 4chan, or internet debate involving people who met each others online for the 1st time. Misunderstandings happened, but they are understood well majority of the time without needing to dig up each others' past or self-introduction or whatever. And people certainly do usually simply proceed with the argument itself, instead of "wasting" majority of the time digging up each others' pasts even if they met for the 1st time. Or in an official debating competition where people are assigned their alignment randomly. Could the arguments presented by them not be able to "stand on its own" without knowing each others, or do they necessarily need to question each others' past and identity in order to gain a better chance of winning the debate, or how can a winner even be determined if nothing they said have any bearings without personally knowing the contestants well ? Or should a declared winner have his status retracted if it's found out later that he's a closet KKK member ? If you are a judge in a debate competition, would you assign a KKK member to lose by default if his opponent is someone you know as a nice person ? Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-09-21 at 18:29. |
|
2013-09-21, 18:40 | Link #30778 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2008
|
In 1961 a U.S. Air Force B-52 almost detonated an atomic bomb over North Carolina:
"The UK Newspaper The Guardian has released details under the freedom of information act, which chronicle how on Jan. 23, 1961 one small frail fail safe switch averted a disaster of biblical proportions. Earlier on that day, a B-52 had departed Seymour Johnson Air Force Base armed with two Mk39 Hydrogen bombs, both with a yield of 4 megatons or to put it another way, with bombs each 260 times more powerful than the weapon that had been dropped on Hiroshima during World War II." See: http://theaviationist.com/2013/09/21.../#.Uj4t6hDA51p Goldsboro revisited: account of hydrogen bomb near-disaster over North Carolina – declassified document: http://www.theguardian.com/world/int...ified-document |
2013-09-21, 19:45 | Link #30779 | ||
cho~ kakkoii
Moderator
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: 3rd Planet
|
Quote:
Quote:
The point is, how do you take in a message, how do you understand it solely depends on you and you alone. Whether you want to analyze it to the Nth degree is up to you, but you can't outright say, "not everything needs to be analyzed to the Nth degree." All it says is that you've reached your own limitation and satisfied with certain conclusion. Your understanding doesn't necessarily need to align with the next person who may come to a different set of understanding based on the same message.
__________________
|
||
2013-09-21, 20:34 | Link #30780 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
|
What if it's a very long message ?
Edit: nvm, I am probably pulling an equivocation here. (as in everything you have ever learned/experienced in your life to be considered "one very long message". ) Last edited by maplehurry; 2013-09-21 at 20:47. |
Tags |
current affairs, discussion, international |
|
|