Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Eratas123]

Yes, there are individuals, but the questions remains: Would these individuals be the majority or the minority? Anyway, at first glance, would you look at the Hideauze and think "Hmm, obviously the Alliance is the aggressor here and the giant aliens with more teeth than the Osmond family that eat people alive aren't".

Doesn't help that in anime Beauty = Goodness a lot of the time. Notice that Amy and the other Gargantian girls are cute and attractive in a wholesome way while Rackage looks like a Sadomasochist wearing garish make-up....and apparently, according to some sites, she's only 19!? Even Ledo, who's shown to have a conscience, is remarkably bruise-free and handsome despite being soldier who undergoes craploads of stress and fighting daily.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

In the scheme of Giant Space Thingies, the Hideauze are not exceptionally ugly, being giant space flowers (or giant space starfish) and giant space snails.

Ledo being good-looking: It would appear that the bad-looking clones are obviously defective and removed early, and that the nature of the fighting means that the pilot comes back generally whole, or is snail food.

There are bits of free thought in Alliance society, though... Ledo's commanding officer did "violate regulations" by sacrificing himself so that lower-ranked Ledo could live. However, that same CO tried to talk Ledo out of going back to save the crew on the Giant Bomb when the Hideauze were eating it.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

Ledo being good-looking: It would appear that the bad-looking clones are obviously defective and removed early, and that the nature of the fighting means that the pilot comes back generally whole, or is snail food.

We don't know any of this

1) The series has not said anything about anyone being eliminated in Ledo's society because of their looks.

He only said those who are not useful (the sickly and handicapped) are removed

2) We don't yet know if clones are involved, this is of course just a theory (although it is a viable one).

[jeroz]

I think he was joking

[cyth]

Originally Posted by Raviel

Ledo did say they were fighting the Hideauze since the founding of the Alliance, the question now would be was the Alliance already founded when they left Earth.

I think you may be on to something when you said there may have been multiple groups in space because we were shown other destroyed human colonies in Ledo's training video. Perhaps the Alliance was once made up of more ships like Avalon but over the course of their fight against the Hideauze they were gradually worn down into the pragmatic society they are today.

This was what bothered me about the episode as well. Bevel may not think of Gargantia as an organization, but they do behave like one, perhaps just not with an enforced hierarchy in place. At the very beginning of the episode, while it was probably nothing more than a formalization, the one ship to join Gargantia had to sign a contract with them. Gargantia is what I'd call an ideal that every anarchist longs for, and it's slowly losing this innocence. The problem comes when such organizations get too big, where it's impossible to micromanage conduct and resolve conflicts, some rules have to be set up.

Gargantia is sort of like the Galactic Alliance, but on a different scale. If they wanted to beat space monsters, they had to team up. If independent ships wanted to survive the harshness of the sea, they had to merge into fleets.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by jeroz

I think he was joking

Then I don't get the joke.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Doesn't help that in anime Beauty = Goodness a lot of the time.

Actually most villains are beautiful persons in anime. Ugliness is only shown on minor henchmen. Oh yeah, I guess the pirates of Suisei no Gargantia fit the trope perfectly.

At any rate Endless Knackwurst's avatar reminds us that there are anime where the insectoid aliens aren't necessarily evil.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Actually most villains are beautiful persons in anime. Ugliness is only shown on minor henchmen. Oh yeah, I guess the pirates of Suisei no Gargantia fit the trope perfectly.

Right as a perfect example I don't think the pirate queen was supposed to be ugly (although I personally was not a big fan of her character design, I am sure many others appreciated it).

Her henchman were kind of ugly though.

As for the flower aliens, somehow they remind me of the aliens in Macross Frontier so I am also not expecting them to be evil.

I am not even necessarily expecting Avalon to be evil, maybe misguided would be a better term.

[Eratas123]

Sorry, I didn't mean ugly so much as....skimpy. Notice this: Heroes tend to be dressed or look good in a sensible and wholesome way: Ledo dresses in an all black bodysuit with a sleeveless blue undershirt while Amy is dressed in a practical orange cloth considering her job as a courier. Meanwhile Lady Rackage is dressed in a weird open Kimono thing with odd looking make-up and headwear and her slave girls are wearing rags and collars:/

Both are attractive, but the latter looks "depraved" in a way.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by cyth

This was what bothered me about the episode as well. Bevel may not think of Gargantia as an organization, but they do behave like one, perhaps just not with an enforced hierarchy in place. At the very beginning of the episode, while it was probably nothing more than a formalization, the one ship to join Gargantia had to sign a contract with them. Gargantia is what I'd call an ideal that every anarchist longs for, and it's slowly losing this innocence. The problem comes when such organizations get too big, where it's impossible to micromanage conduct and resolve conflicts, some rules have to be set up.

Gargantia is sort of like the Galactic Alliance, but on a different scale. If they wanted to beat space monsters, they had to team up. If independent ships wanted to survive the harshness of the sea, they had to merge into fleets.

I don't see how they're slowly losing this innocence? Also what is this micromangement you speak of? So far, all exchanges and association between individuals have been voluntary-- and conflict resolution can be handled by individuals via arbitration. You don't necessarily need government to manage a small community like Gargantia.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

They might have gone a little over the top with the pirate character design and costuming...

Some comments on RandomC reminded me about what had been mentioned regarding the series's overall theme, of becoming an adult and feeling lonely going out into the big world for the first time. Looking at the analogy directly, the Alliance is Ledo's parents, telling him what to do, providing his basic needs, and melting him into goo if he did the wrong thing. Ledo's limited viewpoint and experience make it difficult for him to understand his old way of life beyond what he was told.

The limited viewpoint also means that I personally can't say much about the Alliance with regard to good/evil/ethics/fighting an extermination war against giant space thingies; from the Western contemporary perspective of most viewers, I wouldn't want to live like that, but there is much we don't know.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Eratas123

Sorry, I didn't mean ugly so much as....skimpy. Notice this: Heroes tend to be dressed or look good in a sensible and wholesome way: Ledo dresses in an all black bodysuit with a sleeveless blue undershirt while Amy is dressed in a practical orange cloth considering her job as a courier. Meanwhile Lady Rackage is dressed in a weird open Kimono thing with odd looking make-up and headwear and her slave girls are wearing rags and collars:/

Both are attractive, but the latter looks "depraved" in a way.

Well then I agree. But whenever an anime or manga go for a twist where the "evil guy" turns out to be good, or on the good side, he's usually depicted the same way a regular villain is.

Though I guess this doesn't matter either way since the Hideauze aren't human and they follow other tropes completely.

[cyth]

Originally Posted by taofd

Also what is this micromangement you speak of? So far, all exchanges and association between individuals have been voluntary-- and conflict resolution can be handled by individuals via arbitration.

Yeah, I realize this wasn't the best word for it. I think you corrected me pretty well. I meant interactions/deals between individuals on a micro level.

Originally Posted by taofd

I don't see how they're slowly losing this innocence?

Well, fact is Gargantia is growing bigger, and a bigger society needs things like contracts, more rules, and so on and so forth. When population gets big enough, chaos needs to be ordered to a certain degree.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

Right as a perfect example I don't think the pirate queen was supposed to be ugly (although I personally was not a big fan of her character design, I am sure many others appreciated it).

Her henchman were kind of ugly though.

As for the flower aliens, somehow they remind me of the aliens in Macross Frontier so I am also not expecting them to be evil.

I am not even necessarily expecting Avalon to be evil, maybe misguided would be a better term.

They look like animals to me. Animals who want to eat us (or out technology, which is just as lethal, in space). So, not really "evil" the way people can be evil, but as Chamber said, enemies that can't be negotiated with.

[Folenfant]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

They might have gone a little over the top with the pirate character design and costuming...

Some comments on RandomC reminded me about what had been mentioned regarding the series's overall theme, of becoming an adult and feeling lonely going out into the big world for the first time. Looking at the analogy directly, the Alliance is Ledo's parents, telling him what to do, providing his basic needs, and melting him into goo if he did the wrong thing. Ledo's limited viewpoint and experience make it difficult for him to understand his old way of life beyond what he was told.

The limited viewpoint also means that I personally can't say much about the Alliance with regard to good/evil/ethics/fighting an extermination war against giant space thingies; from the Western contemporary perspective of most viewers, I wouldn't want to live like that, but there is much we don't know.

The character designer is mostly known for erotic doujin work so its not terribly surprising in the long run. Pirates are gonna pirate too....not sure if you've ever seen One Piece but those outfits are still pretty tame compared to that one and that's like the quintessential pirate anime.

Also the alliance definitely gives off some serious Starship Troopers movie edition vibes. I can't help but suspect at least some inspiration was drawn from that movie with the space flowers filling a similar role to the bugs and the alliance being the Federation.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They look like animals to me. Animals who want to eat us (or out technology, which is just as lethal, in space). So, not really "evil" the way people can be evil, but as Chamber said, enemies that can't be negotiated with.

We don't know that, we know very little about them.

Yes they were attacking the humans but we don't know who attacked first.

As it goes I wouldn't completely trust everything said by Avalon.

[LostSome]

This episode goes deeper in the difference between the Ledo`s life in the Gallactic Alliance and Gargantia.
Both sides have the good and bad points and the Gargantians`unability to see outside of the "status quo" is showned further.
I wonder if they even try to develop new tech... The very notion of change and innovation seems lost to them.

Ledo is honest to a fault and it`s show as both a good and bad thing.
He`s curious about everything and is working to learn to speak the native, which is the complete opposite to the Gargantians who don`t give a damn about his culture or language(Come one Amy, you could at least learn a few words to encourage him... I know I would.) with Bebel being the exception.
Seeing how hard Ledo`s trying to find a way home, I guess he`s a little homesick.

[Kirarakim]

I don't think Ledo is homesick per say, after all according to the first episode he's never even been home.

However being a soldier and fighting in the war are all he knew. They were his purpose.

Now he is in this strange world where he doesn't understand anything and he feels useless.

At this point he wants to get back because it gives him a purpose.

[LostSome]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

I don't think Ledo is homesick per say, after all according to the first episode he's never even been home.

However being a soldier and fighting in the war are all he knew. They were his purpose.

Now he is in this strange world where he doesn't understand anything and he feels useless.

At this point he wants to get back because it gives him a purpose.

He`s missing his old life...
Maybe someone has a better word of it, I can`t think of a better word and it`s annoying me.
His lack of interest in going to Avalon was probably for the same reason.

[Xion Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Kirarakim

We don't know that, we know very little about them.

Yes they were attacking the humans but we don't know who attacked first.

As it goes I wouldn't completely trust everything said by Avalon.

Well, it doesn't really matter even if the Alliance attacked first. If there was a resource the Alliance needed that the Space Flowers were also using, but there was no way to communicate between the two, then the only choice left to the Alliance is to fight.

It's like if you're out in the wild and all the fruit trees had tigers hanging around them. Your only choice is to fight the tiger off in order to get the fruit.