Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[velvet nightmare]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

That's completely missing the point of everyone worshipping, following and supporting Kira. Kira's principle is that he takes the law into his own hands and casts punishment where he sees fit. This act of defiance encourages others to do the same - that is, administer justice as they themselves see fit, with no restrictions by outside opinions. Not having a Death Note does not discourage nor prevent this at all.

So if an 8 year old wants to stab his teacher to death for giving him so much homework to do at home, it's perfectly okay if he does; Kira does it himself. And Kira is our god, our inspiration and hope. We should all follow his example!

Except that 8 year old becomes a criminal and then gets added to kira's list

light doesn't want the world to vigilante itself to death or there would be no point of him taking up the mantle of L. he could just sit at home and use the internet to find criminals.

kira's principal is not to take the law into your own hands but to obey the current ones. if using your example happening by the time word of kira had gone main stream, the crime rates would not have gone down by the end of the show as 1 act of violence would be replied with another therefore increasing crime

[4Tran]

The question is whether replacing the Rule of Law, which governs pretty much all First World countries, with the fiat rules is going to benefit anyone in the long run. Given the various reasons for the Rule of Law to be used, I can't see any reasons to think that it will.

[roriconfan]

Well, it is not about punishing the criminals. Don't fool yourselves to think that Kira wanted to help the world. He killed anyone who didn't follow his own selfish form of justice. What bad did those FBI agents do to deserve death? Not only that, he also killed many of his zealots, just to protect his own ass or because they didn't ask for his approval first. Justice my butt. Only insane emperors were killing you for something like that.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, it is not about punishing the criminals. Don't fool yourselves to think that Kira wanted to help the world. He killed anyone who didn't follow his own selfish form of justice. What bad did those FBI agents do to deserve death? Not only that, he also killed many of his zealots, just to protect his own ass or because they didn't ask for his approval first. Justice my butt. Only insane emperors were killing you for something like that.

What did the FBI agents do? They defied a god!!! ~que epic music~

~stops music~ The zealots? They did what zealots do, die for their god!!! ~que music again~

To think, if Light didn't have such a huge ego... he could have played God for his entire life.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, it is not about punishing the criminals. Don't fool yourselves to think that Kira wanted to help the world. He killed anyone who didn't follow his own selfish form of justice. What bad did those FBI agents do to deserve death? Not only that, he also killed many of his zealots, just to protect his own ass or because they didn't ask for his approval first. Justice my butt. Only insane emperors were killing you for something like that.

So what did you think his main objective was? The pleasure of slaughtering? He wanted to rid world of "evil"(ironic) and in order to do this he needed to "sacrifice" innocent lives--- his methods were clearly illogical. I wouldn't say his methods were justified but I do agree that sacrifice---limited and controlled---is always necessary.

How would you make the world a better a place using the Death Note?

---no other way except murder.

[ac195]

Originally Posted by Cipher

How would you make the world a better a place using the Death Note?

Try and write every single persons name in the DN???

Since good and evil is subjective...

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by ac195

Try and write every single persons name in the DN???

Since good and evil is subjective...

True, it is abstract but that's why we have popular polls or elections. Figure out what the majority wants and you won't need to have your own of version of "justice"'s truths.

[roriconfan]

So... we have a poll and the majority can kill the minority?
Because the needs of the many are more important than the needs of the few?
Maybe because the majority is always right? Like, 1000 idiots are more right than a dozen educated people.
Sounds like the slaghter of Saint Bartholomeu's night to me.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

So... we have a poll and the majority can kill the minority?
Sounds like the slaghter of Saint Bartholomeu's night to me.

Try adding the rest of the world's opinions. You'll find it interesting that that example is out of minority decision not majority. 1000 is only minor compared to billions.

[roriconfan]

Well, politicians and kings deside future actions of all their followers since the dawn of mankind. They are the minority so polls and elections have nothing to do with justice.

Remember Nixon? Nice fellow...

Alexander the Great on the other hand was a monarch who through conquest eventually offered more civilization and stability to Asia than any former native king before him. And not even through fear like the Hans did.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Well, politicians and kings deside future actions of all their followers since the dawn of mankind. They are the minority so polls and elections have nothing to do with justice.

Remember Nixon? Nice fellow...

Alexander the Great on the other hand was a monarch who through conquest eventually offered more civilization and stability to Asia than any former native king before him. And not even through fear like the Hans did.

Yeah, truly the inefficiency of man's management in society. We can't deny the Corruptions, Manipulations, and natural abominations within our world. What we(the population) can only try is vote and see if our intentions are cleanly passed. The Leader determines organization, that is why leaders should possess the majority's wishes and act without selfish thought---clearly difficult to monitor.

[roriconfan]

Ι don't know any people who want to have power just to become slaves to the needs of their supporters.
"Vote me so I can be your slave" does not compute.
People want power in order to do whatever they want and get away with it.

As for people who agree with someone and elect him as a leader, I doubt they know even the basics of what the hell they expect or the ways that something needs to go through in order to become reality.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Ι don't know any people who want to have power just to become slaves to the needs of their supporters.
"Vote me so I can be your slave" does not compute.
People want power in order to do whatever they want and get away with it.

As for people who agree with someone and elect him as a leader, I doubt they know even the basics of what the hell they expect or the ways that something needs to go through in order to become reality.

Going back to the OP, who appointed Light ?

[roriconfan]

Darn luck did. So a bored shinigami can have fun.

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Darn luck did. So a bored shinigami can have fun.

...what a cruel world. Come to think of it, he's just like one of those history's unqualified high-born princes.

[Light_Yamagi_Kira]

Originally Posted by Cipher

Yeah, truly the inefficiency of man's management in society. We can't deny the Corruptions, Manipulations, and natural abominations within our world. What we(the population) can only try is vote and see if our intentions are cleanly passed. The Leader determines organization, that is why leaders should possess the majority's wishes and act without selfish thought---clearly difficult to monitor.

Cipher, I can understand your statement as it is a theoretical one. I am sure one famous philosopher would agree with you as well --- Rousseau. However, I am not too sure if this is a realism at all. Now I would assuming that we are talking about a democratic country/ voting system. Which, another great philosopher once said

"The real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth. Wherever men rule by reason of their wealth, whether they be few of many, that is an oligarchy, and where the poor rule, that is democracy". -- Aristotle.

Now, I am going to try and argue the realism and reality of voting. We have the government who has the job to protect the majorities rights and to deal with particular issues: law, money, defense/war and so on. A leader needs to be appointed, however, perception is everything in this world unfortunately. So every politician who is running to be the leader will give his/her speech and platform that looks the best to the majority. A pretty reasonable explanation, however, this is assuming everybody does not lie and are good. Personally, I have seen the world and as Light Yagami has claimed "it is rotting" I think it is a fair claim to say majority lie, cheat, and will do whatever necessary to pursue their own happiness. Now please if anybody can argue that one, please do.

So, basically as you claimed above, majority votes "hoping" that the leader will be just, honest and do best for the people. So in essence we are sitting on hope. Hmm I can understand why Light decided to take the Law into his own hands because hope usually does not get you too far.

[roriconfan]

Well, most of the times hope is blended with desire and people end up hoping for ridiculous things to happen. Like "I hope all the others wrote bad in the exam so I can come first in scores". Or "I hope she likes me or I will have to convince her by force".

In our case it is "I hope I can bring world peace by killing everyone holding a gun". You don't hope for it. You desire it and you will do anything it takes to achieve it. And if you have the means, so much the better.

Imagine this. "I hope all the people who argue with me in this topic will have their PCs crashed, so I will be deemed right. Oh, look, a super virus and the manual!"

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Light_Yamagi_Kira

Cipher, I can understand your statement as it is a theoretical one. I am sure one famous philosopher would agree with you as well --- Rousseau. However, I am not too sure if this is a realism at all. Now I would assuming that we are talking about a democratic country/ voting system. Which, another great philosopher once said

"The real difference between democracy and oligarchy is poverty and wealth. Wherever men rule by reason of their wealth, whether they be few of many, that is an oligarchy, and where the poor rule, that is democracy". -- Aristotle.

Now, I am going to try and argue the realism and reality of voting. We have the government who has the job to protect the majorities rights and to deal with particular issues: law, money, defense/war and so on. A leader needs to be appointed, however, perception is everything in this world unfortunately. So every politician who is running to be the leader will give his/her speech and platform that looks the best to the majority. A pretty reasonable explanation, however, this is assuming everybody does not lie and are good. Personally, I have seen the world and as Light Yagami has claimed "it is rotting" I think it is a fair claim to say majority lie, cheat, and will do whatever necessary to pursue their own happiness. Now please if anybody can argue that one, please do.

The world is rotting? As far as I know, the world is developing: the trend, Death rates going down + Life span going up, should suffice as my evidence. With the majority lying, cheating and doing whatever necessary to pursue their own happiness thing, hm...i don't know...I've always felt "I'm human and usually dislike harming others and everyone else is human so they should also be that way". You need to trust people more often...unless your going to show me a clear and valid evidence to support your "rotten" world claim that is.

So, basically as you claimed above, majority votes "hoping" that the leader will be just, honest and do best for the people. So in essence we are sitting on hope. Hmm I can understand why Light decided to take the Law into his own hands because hope usually does not get you too far.

I could understand if his motivations included the better of the world as oppose to the "restoring" of the world. What gives him the right to judge the world as "rotten"? And his decision to act was right (IMO) but his methods are just too severe and damaging---an infliction that could even injure his own goals.

[Sinfully Naomi]

I believe that both Light and.... Light are correct about the world rotting. Yes, people lying, cheating and such to pursue their own happiness is a key factor in this. It seems the world has become a place of mass selfishness. People are only going to be looking out for themselves, because most of the time we are told not to trust anyone. Everyone will be subject to a life of solitude and fear that others will hurt them, betray them, do them wrong in any sense. I know this as a fact for myself, because I feel this way strongly, that only the happiness of one's self matters to them. Your, or my happiness doesn't matter to the vast majority of the world.

People being like this, not caring to help one another, not caring of another's happiness is the key aspect of a "rotting" world. They only way is for there to be more people who think of others and care to help one another, but as the generations go on, that fleeting number will become smaller, and smaller, until there's nothing but hate an distrust in the world. So what if people have a longer lifespan, who would want to live in a world where at most only one other person might even think of you being a signifigant thing in thier life?

[Cipher]

Originally Posted by Sinfully Naomi

I believe that both Light and.... Light are correct about the world rotting. Yes, people lying, cheating and such to pursue their own happiness is a key factor in this. It seems the world has become a place of mass selfishness. People are only going to be looking out for themselves, because most of the time we are told not to trust anyone. Everyone will be subject to a life of solitude and fear that others will hurt them, betray them, do them wrong in any sense. I know this as a fact for myself, because I feel this way strongly, that only the happiness of one's self matters to them. Your, or my happiness doesn't matter to the vast majority of the world.

People being like this, not caring to help one another, not caring of another's happiness is the key aspect of a "rotting" world. They only way is for there to be more people who think of others and care to help one another, but as the generations go on, that fleeting number will become smaller, and smaller, until there's nothing but hate an distrust in the world. So what if people have a longer lifespan, who would want to live in a world where at most only one other person might even think of you being a signifigant thing in thier life?

Well you could be right---that the reason why we have a longer life span now might not be because of selflessness but selfishness. The main thing I worry is your pessimism. I know so many good people( even through the times I've lived in poverty) and just can't get that "train" of thought.

"Rotting" world theory... anyone have more ideas?