Morality in Death Note? Do the ends justify the means?

[numb3rs]

Originally Posted by Arbitres

I think the one most capable of cleaning the world would have been Mikami. But of course... it had to be Light that ended up with the Death Note.

but did you see how he snapped and commit suicide because he realized he was wrong of suspecting light as a god? mikami couldn't even protect the death note, let alone notice he was being followed by Giovanni.

from the last episode:
Light- when i first got that notebook all those years ago, i knew i had to do it. no i was the only one who could. i understood that illing people was a crime. there was no other way the world had to be fixed! a purpose given to me. only me. who else could've done it and gotten this far !? would they have kept going !? no, the only one who could create a new world was me.

just food for thought (:

[misa~misa]

Light wanted the best for the world, but in a subjective way that pleased him and others were happy, yeah, many were just fearful and still people opposed him but if they said that they'd be killed. It was his own ideals he was pursuing, though he had good intentions, it's selfish to want your idea of what's best and it's self righteous to say it's best for the world.

As Friedrich Nietzsche once said "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you." Light became everything he hated, a murderer, a monster but his own ego was too big to recognize this.

No matter what, killing someone has nothing to do with morals, that quote supports what I believe. The only thing I'd boil this down to is good intentions, but Hitler had good intentions too. He thought the world would be better if a superior race lead it.

When you kill someone, to that one person, you kill everyone they know, you destroy everything they know.

[Revolutionist]

Light was just a crazy mass murderer who thought of himself as a God, nothing more nothing less just like Near said. He was a piece of shit that died a really pathetic death, completely defeated and humiliated.

[toad264]

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Light was just a crazy mass murderer who thought of himself as a God, nothing more nothing less just like Near said. He was a piece of shit that died a really pathetic death, completely defeated and humiliated.

Lots of people silently have Light's mentality though. Think about it. If you had that power, you'd definitely want to help the world by killing criminals. I know I would.

[Revolutionist]

You'd eventually be consumed by your power, and you'd end up abusing it. Light was wrong from the get go, because he was doing it to become a god, but he was just killing criminals, until he went after the police and anyone who might disagree with his point of view. And from then on it was a downward spiral into madness.

[C-chan]

Like Near had said, he's just a mad killer.. He can't be God.

[SkyFlames]

I think that I'm one of the few only people that is actually on the Light's side, so I'll try to explain my point
In my opinion, Near and Elle were worst than Light himselft, you surelly think I'm wrong but if you look at the "3 years after" episode, you see that both, the old and the new "L" reveal that they actually solved crimes just as a "hobby" or for "fun", but they were actually playing and having fun taking down a person, with no other intention than a mental game. Kira did killed a lot of people, some inocents too (as the FBI cops) but he did it for an objetive of creating a "new world" where persons could live in peace. Here is where I'm on his side, he got something to fight for and isn't him, it's the humanity's future, and Lawliet just fighted to take an assasin down, don't even worrying if what he was doing was more good than evil. In that special, even Near saids "but Kira at least lowed the criminality a 70 percent and stopped the wars", isn't that enought for just one person?

PS: Sorry for the long explanation

[Hooves]

But Kira was subjecting the world to fear in order to keep public order around. That's what made so many people hate him is the fear he inflicted on the world that they will die if thy disobey Kira. Almost like dictating the entire world with one notebook and many followers that would kiss the boot of Light. Would a world subjected by fear really be a world of peace? There will be times when people will want to try to change that and fight against it, there is no possible way to make a world peaceful with fear, sure you displayed your power and those weaker then you would not stand a chance. But there will always be an opponent for Light to face even if Near failed.

[SkyFlames]

You got a point there, but what I'm saying is that the world as I saw it on the last chapters of the anime, was on agrement with Kira, you can see that even after his dead, a huge ammount of people were forming a religion to his god, Kira.
I know that his method wasn't the best one, but in which other way youcan stop wars and low the ciminality in that way? Besides, I think that a criminal that gets on prison for killing a person and shows no regrement for it isn't a big lose to the world. Anyways, it's just my view point

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by SkyFlames

You got a point there, but what I'm saying is that the world as I saw it on the last chapters of the anime, was on agrement with Kira, you can see that even after his dead, a huge ammount of people were forming a religion to his god, Kira.
I know that his method wasn't the best one, but in which other way youcan stop wars and low the ciminality in that way? Besides, I think that a criminal that gets on prison for killing a person and shows no regrement for it isn't a big lose to the world. Anyways, it's just my view point

Kira defiantly did leave an example, but surprised that people are actually starting a religion to him. But from my thought wouldnt his death inspire crime once again? Since the God that was sending all the criminals in terror is now gone. Wouldnt they just go back to the same crime rate they were at before Kira came into this world?

[SkyFlames]

Actually I think that the Light's plan was to look for a sucessor if he was near to death, maybe Teru or Takada (who knows, maybe were just simple tools to him) in that way there were some kinda of King more than God, as in the old France, where the king was the selected by god. Obviously his plan failed and due that we have no information about what happened after Kira's death, we don't know if the criminal rate went up once again, but the people indeed know that Kira was death/gone forever.

[Quadrewple]

Originally Posted by Aidan

The protagonist
This Light guy has the most simplistic idea about the world, it would show that he is one of those people who is so weak and cowardly that they have to cower behind the law in order to feel save and security. Seeing the law as some absolute guide, rather than the joke it really is. A world without crime would be perfect? We'll still get all the natural disasters, where people die and property gets destroyed. Perfect world? Nope. I can go on a killing spree and not be a criminal. I simply have to enlist in the army. I can sell weed and not be a criminal, I simply have to go to Holland. Perfect world? Nope. It takes more than a world free of crime for it to be perfect.

I think Light's internal dialogue about "divine justice" was just an ex post facto justification for manipulating those close to him in order to increase his power. What's interesting about this series is that it realistically portrays the way some humans use the concepts of right and wrong to manipulate others in doing what benefits them. The institutions of religion, government, and many parents are self-proclaimed champions of morality. Light tried to convince himself that what he was doing was right and when those around him in the task force discovered that he was Kira, he went to the argument from necessity. In fact, many wars are publicly handled like this. The leaders say that their country and military have the "high moral ground" over the scapegoats they use to "justify" an invasion or genocide of another area. When the credibility of those scapegoats is questioned, they stop talking about the issue as a moral one but as a pragmatic one, showing that the argument from morality is their first resort.

Originally Posted by Aidan

A criminal, aren't we all?
Who is a criminal? A person that breaks the law? Why does a person break the law? Because s/he is a evil thing that plagues society? Or someone who is driven over the line by society having no choice but to become a criminal in order to survive? Someone who is unaware of laws and accidentally breaks a law? All of you who download fansubs and scanlations? There are many reasons why a person breaks the rules, as many unjust reasons as just reasons. Robin hood, who steals, but gives to the poor.

You are correct, however none of this matters when diagnosing the moral nature of the protagonist. He chose to use the death note. Also, he saw the failure of the pre-Death Note government justice system and felt he could do a better job. In fact, if you listen to the statistics in the show, crime was cut into a fraction of its level before the Death Note surfaced. So the people in the police force are not morally superior to Light in any way because they're enforcers working for an organization that claims the same goal as Light. Both their government organization and Light state morally just goals and then when situations arise for them to stick to their morals, they instead choose to do whatever it takes to increase their power.

Originally Posted by Aidan

A criminal to one person can be the hero of another. The criminal from one perspective, can be the loving father from another, or evil monster from yet another. Who is the main protagonist to judge from his one perspective? Nothing but a fool as he himself becomes a criminal in the process of his judgment and by that same judgment he should kill himself. The walking contradiction. Every person on this planet has broken a law once in their existence, be it the law of man/society or be it the laws of god/religion. How stupid is it to condemn all criminals to death, might as well kill everyone in the world. He might as well start with himself, because he too is a criminal. He too deserves death by this own judgment, because killing a person, be it a criminal or an innocent, is still a crime, unless of course it is sanctioned by that same law. Which should show the true colors of law to those that understand the full implications of that statement.

Originally Posted by Aidan

The joke of law
What is law? A set of rules that redistributes the freedoms of individuals so everyone can be equal, so everybody has equal freedom. Well that was the dream of law, the ideal of law, but that dreams has ended long ago. Rules are said to be set by a society, but these days they are set by those in power, which has produced some very unjust laws. How does Light wish to judge people that live by another set of rules which differs from his own? Applying his own set of rules onto a society where he does not live is unjust, applying his set of rules to the whole world is no different than oppression or a dictatorship, because it is only based on the perspective of one person.

Laws are sets of rules backed by the threat of force. The fact that Kira had so many supporters demonstrates the failures of the law makers in the government.
I would liken Kira to a modern day military man. He is so far removed from the consequences of his actions that he starts to view less powerful humans as pawns instead of thinking, breathing, conscious beings. Whereas in the past, combat was done hand-to-hand or by firearms on a battlefield, and the psychological effects and physical danger took a large toll on the morale of soldiers, now you fly around in a helicopter and press a button to kill thousands or millions of people at a time.

[NoemiChan]

I was with the side of Kira when he was only targeting criminals.

Everything changed when he starts killing policemen just to protect his identity. He was out of control.

I don't mind killing criminals myself if only I'm not afraid of going to jail. Kira is also afraid but he rather kill those people chasing him than stopping his crusade.

Again he is out of control. He killed L, laughing as if everything was just a game. He doesn't value life in general. Whether your a criminal of not, as long as your on his way, you shall die.

He was righteous in the beginning but he lost the Grace of God by killing those who just imposes justice.

[AuroraFlash]

Kira did not kill L, that was the Shinigami Rem...

[Hooves]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Kira did not kill L, that was the Shinigami Rem...

But it was Kira who forced Rem to do the deed, which lead to Rem dying because she had to use the Death Note (which Shinigamis cannot suddenly just kill people) only to save the life of one who was entangled towards Light.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by Hooves

But it was Kira who forced Rem to do the deed, which lead to Rem dying because she had to use the Death Note (which Shinigamis cannot suddenly just kill people) only to save the life of one who was entangled towards Light.

Too bad Rem let herself be manipulated by Kira.
Yagami Light is quite egoistic. In fact, I liked him a lot because I would do the exact same thing with that book. I'm only being honest. Give people power and you get to know their true selves. I know exactly what I would do with a power like that. I would kill. I would be more creative though. No more heart attacks. I'd always give a good reason as for example AIDS, cancer, an epileptic seizure, poisoned food (oh you could kill hundreds because of poisoned food and destroy companies like Mc Donald's with nothing but your pen),...

...stuff like that.

I didn't need to reflect on this for even ten seconds. It's basic instinct. I know what's right... or righteous. I was sad that he didn't get through with it and died. I know that he had to die in order to protect the author from criticism, but I'd loved to see utopia become real. Our world is full of scum. I'd gladly soil my hands with nothing but ink to use the most efficient tool to keep mankind under control - the fear of death. Nobody's perfect, but let me try and I show you how close perfection can be.
With more than seven billion people in the world, there is no place for criminals in the industrialized countries. Rapists, murderers, thieves, thugs... we don't need them.

He did everything right in order to create a new society. It was just wrong in the eyes of our current society. A society that believed in the earth being flat, burning witches and Droit de seigneur. Mankind is stupid.

[Quadrewple]

First off, there are those in this world who have little to no self-esteem and are content with being pawns for more powerful pieces. They can't amass value on their own so they cling to manipulators who lie to them about their feelings and value. It's easier for many to find a manipulator than to actually achieve competency on their own. Misa openly chose this path of the "used." Every since her character's introduction, she sacrificed her time and lifespan to make herself more valuable to Light. She thought that if she sacrificed enough, Light would love her and they'd be happy together. She made the mistake of thinking that love could be willed for someone else, rather than earned through virtuous actions. The more Light was consumed by the power of the Death Note, the less he pretended to care for her.

Secondly, there are those in this world born into situations that offer them advantages (just or not) over those around them. Verbal skills and good looks would be the two most important in this series. and were two advantages Light possessed that made him a great manipulator. The way he was able to contrast his evil inner voice with the well-spoken student outer voice is what made him so dangerous and elusive. He tried to achieve happiness through absolute power, but along the way he lied constantly to those who truly cared about him, and ended up frantic and alone when the consequences of his actions caught up to him. He became addicted to his power and was no longer able to enjoy the simple pleasures a regular human does.

I've found that the Death Note works as a very convincing metaphor for political or military power. When you're in a high level position in the government, bills that get passed to you have the potential to destroy thousands or hundreds of thousands of lives. Like with the Death Note, you're so far removed from the consequences of your actions that human lives can seem insignificant to you. It starts to feel more like a slightly more complex board game than life and death. But in the end, when it is your turn to die, you will finally truly come to terms with the suffering you've inflicted on others and it will be too late to take back the evil you committed. Very powerful show!

[Rag]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Kira did not kill L, that was the Shinigami Rem...

Forcing someone to kill someone else is technically the same as killing them yourself. L's plan was brilliant, devious, but still brilliant.

[SkyFlames]

Originally Posted by genjichan

I was with the side of Kira when he was only targeting criminals.

Everything changed when he starts killing policemen just to protect his identity. He was out of control.

I don't mind killing criminals myself if only I'm not afraid of going to jail. Kira is also afraid but he rather kill those people chasing him than stopping his crusade.

Again he is out of control. He killed L, laughing as if everything was just a game. He doesn't value life in general. Whether your a criminal of not, as long as your on his way, you shall die.

He was righteous in the beginning but he lost the Grace of God by killing those who just imposes justice.

I think that the Death Note power consumed his soul till the point that he became, mentally, in a shinigami. He didn't care about life and took it away as if it were a game. But if you think that Light was human as well, it's natural to feel fear to get trapped and not only spend the rest of his life in prison, but getting death sentence. Now that his life on heaven/hell was erased, the only thing he got left was his terrenal life, he went too far by killing the cops of FBI. But I think he did good on killing L (I know a lot of people will hate me for this) since he was just a kid that got fun by solving "puzzles" and those puzzles eventually took people to death, criminals to death, so it was basicly the same game that Kira was playing, just that his was "legal".
If you think in this way, the killer that kills one person with his own hands gets death sentence. But the executioner that takes away his life can go home and sleep quietly. Why? Because one death is against the law and the other isn't. Who can decide when to kill someone and when to don't? None can, only a god could. So that's where the Kira's complex starts at.

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Too bad Rem let herself be manipulated by Kira.
Yagami Light is quite egoistic. In fact, I liked him a lot because I would do the exact same thing with that book. I'm only being honest. Give people power and you get to know their true selves. I know exactly what I would do with a power like that. I would kill. I would be more creative though. No more heart attacks. I'd always give a good reason as for example AIDS, cancer, an epileptic seizure, poisoned food (oh you could kill hundreds because of poisoned food and destroy companies like Mc Donald's with nothing but your pen),...

...stuff like that.

I didn't need to reflect on this for even ten seconds. It's basic instinct. I know what's right... or righteous. I was sad that he didn't get through with it and died. I know that he had to die in order to protect the author from criticism, but I'd loved to see utopia become real. Our world is full of scum. I'd gladly soil my hands with nothing but ink to use the most efficient tool to keep mankind under control - the fear of death. Nobody's perfect, but let me try and I show you how close perfection can be.
With more than seven billion people in the world, there is no place for criminals in the industrialized countries. Rapists, murderers, thieves, thugs... we don't need them.

He did everything right in order to create a new society. It was just wrong in the eyes of our current society. A society that believed in the earth being flat, burning witches and Droit de seigneur. Mankind is stupid.

You just earned my respect by that words. Is too easy to say "killing is bad, we can't take life away", indeed, I won't go to the street and kill someone, but how could you handle that someone you loved just get killed and the guy that did it goes to vacations to a hotel with bars? I never got an experience like that, but I see it on news everyday and I feel bad for those peoples, I mean I don't know how the prison is in your countries, but in mine is pure crap. The prisoners even gets chocolate, footbal matches, basquetball, they get along with other persons like them and don't suffer at all. I think we should return to the old russian prissons (not trying to offend anyone with this) that gave the prisoners the treatment that they neded, as animals.
About what you said about Light being selfish, Rem and Ryuk were just killers, you gotta get that, they would eventually kill an innocent person just to expand their own life. I didn't feel bad for Rem, one less killer to care about~

[Ilidsor]

I'm not sure if this has been said yet because I haven't read the thread but here's my point.

I think Lights plan regardless of if it is morally right or wrong right now, will be very bad in the long run. Think about it: If Light won he would have spent the rest of his life as a god worshiped by all of humanity. And then eventually he would have died. Then what? After Light dies and isn't killing any more the entire world is left worshiping a god that says it's good to kill people who disagree with him. Since Light won't being doing the killings anymore people will start doing it themselves. Can you imagine that? Think of the witch hunts and all the death and destruction caused by one line in the bible. Now imagine that times one hundred. Not a very nice world to live in.