International Saimoe League 2008 - The Best of the Best

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Just a reminder that Feito-chan is the only candidate in the top 5 that is NOT a Kyo-ani character.

So if you want to vote Anti-KyoAni, remember to vote for Feito-chan. Feito-chan is your best shot in beating Tomoyo, Yuki, Kyou and holding off Kagami and the God-Empress.

I rather like that idea.

Well, what we need are Japanese voters, since they tend to vote very different from westerners. Especially when Key is involved they tend to vote the opposite. Then again, those complaining about Key/kyoani's popularity all of a sudden, vote for them like 80% of the time anyways, and probably don't even realize it... and you all know where I stand...

[Ithekro]

Actually I wonder about the Japanese anti-Key voting. That might just be 2ch and not the whole of the anime community. Sort of like not all of the western anime fans are on 4chan.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Ithekro

Actually I wonder about the Japanese anti-Key voting. That might just be 2ch and not the whole of the anime community. Sort of like not all of the western anime fans are on 4chan.

That's probably the case, although they had to of come to that conslusion one way or the other. So I'de guess there are quite a few anti-key in Japan whether they vote in polls or not. Still, 2ch are the Japanese we would attract anyways, so that's the only thing that matters.

[Ithekro]

KyoAni wins this round: 13 out of 18 (two inter-KyoAni fights)

Losses to other KyoAni: Haruhi and Ryou.

Other losses: Nagisa, Sayuri, Shiori, Kyon's Sister, and Tsuruya.

I'm hoping for Tessa to make a comeback, but she is the "oldest" KyoAni girl here in terms of when her anime aired...unless Kanon 2002 predated Full Metal Panic!, but then the Kanon girls here are pretty much all Kanon 2006 while Tessa is more or less Fumoffu and TSR.

[KholdStare]

Well yeah Higurashi Kai is just so good. It feels like the mystery is over (well part of it) and I'm just watching a good drama. Takano's past is kinda boring though, but maybe it's just the momentum drop from the ending of the last arc. I still think they could've condensed it into one episode.

And yeah, I'm starting to not care about Clannad. This is a tournament mostly for North Americans, so what's the point? Just like how Japan likes Rozen Maiden, what is so wrong about making the distinction that North Americans like Clannad/Kyo Ani? I know the goal here is to be international, but to be frank, with Saimoe starting, it won't really happen.

[Demi.]

And yeah, I'm starting to not care about Clannad. This is a tournament mostly for North Americans, so what's the point? Just like how Japan likes Rozen Maiden, what is so wrong about making the distinction that North Americans like Clannad/Kyo Ani? I know the goal here is to be international, but to be frank, with Saimoe starting, it won't really happen.

For me, two reasons. 1.) The entirety of Kyoani is doing good, not just a single series but rather, all of it. Then character's like Kyon's Sister take open slots in this competition when there are far better choices. and 2.) Because I know a good deal of Kyoani voters have seen such a limited amount of anime that they shouldn't be voting at all. I know that may sound condescending, but really, they should take the time to view other anime before voting. 2ch voters are different as they choose to like Rozen Maiden despite having watched a great deal of anime. So It's not really Kyoani's popularity that bothers me, but the fact that they have an unfair advantage in this competition for being so popular with the lesser anime watching voters. And most of all, it really bothers me to see minor Kyoani characters dominate their competition and then the minute they go up against high-tier Kyoani they're completely annihilated. For instance, Ryou defeating Nagi and nearly upsetting Nanoha and then being blown away by Tomoyo with a 70+% vote differential. Kagami did the same to Shiori.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Demi.

For me, two reasons. 1.) The entirety of Kyoani is doing good, not just a single series but rather, all of it. Then character's like Kyon's Sister take open slots in this competition when there are far better choices. and 2.) Because I know a good deal of Kyoani voters have seen such a limited amount of anime that they shouldn't be voting at all. I know that may sound condescending, but really, they should take the time to view other anime before voting. 2ch voters are different as they choose to like Rozen Maiden despite having watched a great deal of anime. So It's not really Kyoani's popularity that bothers me, but the fact that they have an unfair advantage in this competition for being so popular with the lesser anime watching voters.

I've realized that as well, hence I've been trying to free up time to get all 64 done before I get back to college during Sapphire, which from what I expect out here in a real world, will take a major suck out of my time.

Basically, this week and next is all about trying to finish.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by Demi.

Still, 2ch are the Japanese we would attract anyways, so that's the only thing that matters.

There is a Leaf/Key Japanese community where all the exiled people from 2ch went to. They hold their own Saimoe contest among all Leaf/Key charas. If somehow they were advertised to....... ~~~~~

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Psieye

There is a Leaf/Key Japanese community where all the exiled people from 2ch went to. They hold their own Saimoe contest among all Leaf/Key charas. If somehow they were advertised to....... ~~~~~

the To Heart character might actually put up a respectable showing.

otoh it would increase the votes for Key characters already.

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Psieye

There is a Leaf/Key Japanese community where all the exiled people from 2ch went to. They hold their own Saimoe contest among all Leaf/Key charas. If somehow they were advertised to....... ~~~~~

Now... why do I find this hilarious?

But even though it's not the audience of choice, I believe it would be more likely for them to get involved with this league thanks in part to Tomoyo's dominance over almost every other historic respectable candidate in this round robin, which would probably lead to a Japanese translator willing to be able to help us out.

Of course, the obvious downside to this, I won't mention.

[Ahasuerus]

@KholdStare:

Well yeah Higurashi Kai is just so good. It feels like the mystery is over (well part of it) and I'm just watching a good drama. Takano's past is kinda boring though, but maybe it's just the momentum drop from the ending of the last arc. I still think they could've condensed it into one episode.

It is just a momentum drop (and a short one), necessary to give essential background infos you'll need for later. Things'll pick up soon You have yet to see how, armed with their "Pieces", they can match up against Takano's indomitable will... or IF they can.

@ others:
I think comments about KyoAni fans not being aware of other animes are presumptuous and elitist. I've seen PLENTY of experienced reviewers who loved all the Key/KyoAni collabs; all I see here are sour grapes and simple minded hating going on. It's sickening, and I'm getting damned tired of it. I may just drop out and leave you all with one less K/KA supporter (yay you) and so maybe you'll gain more votes for your (less-moe-to-me) characters, and those AWFUL KyoAni characters less.

I'll add that I've voted against K/KA many times as I feel it's honest to vote MOE in this contest rather than spew worthless diatribes just because your candidates aren't winning all the time. I've voted against Tomoyo more often than for. Look: Kanon and Clannad are popular because they are GOOD, widely considered high-quality by those who know, their girls are beautifully done; they aren't called "moefests" for nothing. Naturally, you'll find "arguments against" by people who are just haters or who just want to be contrary, which is not valid OR impartial.

And if K/KA is so damned "powerful" why didn't Air get a nomination? All this anti-KyoAni hate is ridiculous; saying it's a bias is an extreme understatement. It's all so irrational given the supposed "impartiality" of the contest. Weird.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Demi.

So It's not really Kyoani's popularity that bothers me, but the fact that they have an unfair advantage in this competition for being so popular with the lesser anime watching voters.

Pretty much hits the nail on the head for my case too.

It's sad (and annoying) to see that "fans" with a limited amount of series viewed creating such an advantage for kyoani characters. The phrase "you have much to learn padwan" runs through my head

In other news.

Gin sama, Fate chan check

******Support! *******



@ Ahasuerus ~ and ofc, there are exceptions.

Ever since the appearance of Haruhi, kyoani has scored an "overhyped" award in my books. They are NOT the best thing since sliced bread, which unfortunately, a lot of people have been going around waving flags about.

[KholdStare]

I don't think it's a problem... If people are voting KyoAni because that's the only they watched, then that's a distinction between North American voters and voters of other regions.

[Psieye]

Originally Posted by Demi

For me, two reasons. 1.) The entirety of Kyoani is doing good, not just a single series but rather, all of it. Then character's like Kyon's Sister take open slots in this competition when there are far better choices. and 2.) Because I know a good deal of Kyoani voters have seen such a limited amount of anime that they shouldn't be voting at all. I know that may sound condescending, but really, they should take the time to view other anime before voting. 2ch voters are different as they choose to like Rozen Maiden despite having watched a great deal of anime. So It's not really Kyoani's popularity that bothers me, but the fact that they have an unfair advantage in this competition for being so popular with the lesser anime watching voters. And most of all, it really bothers me to see minor Kyoani characters dominate their competition and then the minute they go up against high-tier Kyoani they're completely annihilated. For instance, Ryou defeating Nagi and nearly upsetting Nanoha and then being blown away by Tomoyo with a 70+% vote differential. Kagami did the same to Shiori.

Originally Posted by Ahasuerus

@ others:
I think comments about KyoAni fans not being aware of other animes are presumptuous and elitist. I've seen PLENTY of experienced reviewers who loved all the Key/KyoAni collabs; all I see here are sour grapes and simple minded hating going on. It's sickening, and I'm getting damned tired of it. I may just drop out and leave you all with one less K/KA supporter (yay you) and so maybe you'll gain more votes for your (less-moe-to-me) characters, and those AWFUL KyoAni characters less.

I'll add that I've voted against K/KA many times as I feel it's honest to vote MOE in this contest rather than spew worthless diatribes just because your candidates aren't winning all the time. I've voted against Tomoyo more often than for. Look: Kanon and Clannad are popular because they are GOOD, widely considered high-quality by those who know, their girls are beautifully done; they aren't called "moefests" for nothing. Naturally, you'll find "arguments against" by people who are just haters or who just want to be contrary, which is not valid OR impartial.

And if K/KA is so damned "powerful" why didn't Air get a nomination? All this anti-KyoAni hate is ridiculous; saying it's a bias is an extreme understatement. It's all so irrational given the supposed "impartiality" of the contest. Weird.

Both sides aren't really paying attention to each other it seems. It all comes down to demographics. There are some who have only seen KyoAni series and blindly support them without bothering to research others. There are some who favour KyoAni series after an informed and weighted decision. How many from these two groups are in our voter demographics will never ever be known. Both sides of the argument are going to assume the majority of KyoAni votes are from the pool which supports their argument.

"KyoAni big shots deserve their wins because they are that good" is a valid point.

"KyoAni minor characters with minimal screentime don't deserve their wins over very well developed non-KyoAni Moe girls" is also a valid point. I mean think of the reverse - this is like saying Nagisa, Kotomi, Ayu, etc losing to Alt from Nanoha StrikerS. Who the hell is Alt? The replacement helicopter pilot who is only around for the late episodes and doesn't get much, if any, character development aside from "likes helicopters so was around to be the new pilot".

[wontaek]

The statistics and probability suggests that top fourth of a league becomes more or less fixed around 16 match mark. After 16 'games' only last four places out of top 16 will be up for grabs, practically, thus anyone supporting a character that is not in the top 20 would feel it to be pointless to vote. Right now, we can probably say the chance of current top 8 not making the Double Elimination round is practically non-existent, as well as believe that it will take a miracle for anyone at 31st or lower to make the tournament round. That means more than half of the contestant supporters will be feeling hopeless right now, and will start ignoring ISML. Only way we may increase the votes would be if we find new group of people to advertise to, and any increase in voting would be temporary until we arrive at the double elimination round. In fact, I suspect the number of voters to drop down to around 300 level. This can be used as advantage to a special interest group, for if the number of voters drop below 300, in most of matches, any voting block of around 30 voters can easily sway the results to their favor, which may lead to upsets and changes om top 16 to include more contestant deemed 'easy'.

Now, the question is 'Will this happen next year?' The above probability is derived assuming wide range of contestant strength. If there exist more parity among the contestants ( less roadkills like Yurie and Konomi ), it will take much more number of games to determine top 16; we may need to wait up to 50 matches before saying who are the locks and who are on the bubble. If there will be more nomination write-ins and less automatic qualifiers, we may enjoy longer period of hope before sinking into despair.

As for the popularity and width of anime knowledge questions, we also need to consider that there exists dozens of anime series that are more popular if you consider all humans in the entire world. For someone to know and see Clannad, chances are that person has already seen scores( group of 20 ) of other anime before seeing Clannad. The bottom line is we couldn't get enough voters at the start to stave off Kyo-ani domination, and we may now never get enough voters to break the Kyo-ani 'tyranny' unless we do a major change of the ISML format.

[Ithekro]

I keep seeing the mention of "Kyon's Sister should not be here". While I can agree with that, it has nothing to so with the nomiation process as she was a pre-entry based on her success in Korean SaiMoe 2006. Therefore nothing can be done about her being in the contest. Only the 17 nominated girls were optional.

Next year will be different since I doubt Saimoe 2006 and 2007 entires (unless they happen to be in the top 16 of this tournament) will get included. Only Saimoe 2008 (Korea and Japan) plus Best Moe 2006-08 and ISML top 16 will be in the 2009 ISML...if I understand things correctly. Then it will be a return to the nominations. Unless Kyon's Sister does well in Best Moe, ISML, or somehow Haruhi returns before July, you won't see her again in 2009 ISML unless a whole lot of people nominate her into it (doubtful).

[FiREwing]

Vote comments + 10 times more rage

Spoiler for vote rage:

By Order of Percentage:

83.9% Kotomi > Konomi--Get a life Kotomi!!!
81.7% Hinagiku > Tamaki (TH)--Approved
79.5% Suigintou > Chikaru--Approved!
77.2% Rika > Souseiseki--Approved!
---
72.5% Tessa > Yurie--Approved!
72.1% Shana > Mion--Approved!
71.9% Yuki > Ayumu--Bah.
71.1% Fuko > Touka--Approved!
70.9% C.C. > Yuno--......CC GO AWAY!!T_T
70.3% Saber > Sakura (TC)--GAR prevails.
68.0% Konata > Chiaki--....
67.7% Ayu > Sakura (FSN)--Ok
66.4% Kyou > Maria--OMFALDJLJJKL!
65.8% Rin > Kiri--Meh
64.7% Tamaki (BB) > Tamao--Lol
64.2% Suiseiseki > Aruruu--Approved
63.9% Mai > Ryou--Don't care
63.9% Horo > Kyon's Sister--Approve
63.9% Kagami > Nagi--Fail!
63.8% Fate > shiori--Approved!
63.6% Nayuki > Nodoka--ADLJSld
59.4% Mikuru > Eruruu--LAKJDlkad
59.4% Tsukasa > Matsuri--LHADJh
57.5% Sakura (CS) > Evangeline--
57.3% Yue > Alice--
55.7% Hanyuu > Tsuruya--
---
52.8% Tomoyo > Haruhi--I HATE YOU TOMOYO! I HATE YOU! GO EAT YOUR SOCKS!
52.8% Louise > Vita--Meh.
52.2% Rena > Sayuri--Why is it SO CLOSE.
51.3% Nanoha > Nagisa--WHY IS THIS CLOSE TOO!
50.9% Eri > Setsuna--lol weak negima now
50.8% Konoka > Shinku--......................SHINKU!T_T

Statistics
-The loser with the least votes is Kotomi (10).--Fixed
-The winner with the most votes is Haruhi (5).--Fixed.
-The winner with the least votes is Eri (163).--......
-The loser with the least votes is Konomi (56). ....
-The most popular arena is Tomoyo > Haruhi (405).--Bah......
-The least popular arena is Tamaki (BB) > Tamao (269).DALJ

[minhtam1638]

Can I get a word in?

Originally Posted by wontaek

The statistics and probability suggests that top fourth of a league becomes more or less fixed around 16 match mark. After 16 'games' only last four places out of top 16 will be up for grabs, practically, thus anyone supporting a character that is not in the top 20 would feel it to be pointless to vote. Right now, we can probably say the chance of current top 8 not making the Double Elimination round is practically non-existent, as well as believe that it will take a miracle for anyone at 31st or lower to make the tournament round. That means more than half of the contestant supporters will be feeling hopeless right now, and will start ignoring ISML. Only way we may increase the votes would be if we find new group of people to advertise to, and any increase in voting would be temporary until we arrive at the double elimination round. In fact, I suspect the number of voters to drop down to around 300 level. This can be used as advantage to a special interest group, for if the number of voters drop below 300, in most of matches, any voting block of around 30 voters can easily sway the results to their favor, which may lead to upsets and changes om top 16 to include more contestant deemed 'easy'.

I definitely see this statement viable. We are now one-third of a way through the ISML season. Remember that each win gives you two points. The way I'm looking at this now, you will probably need at least 90 points to have a good shot at the top 16. Already, we have contestants that might not even reach that mark in time, so voters may be pried away from ISML and focus on J Saimoe. I did state that candidates will need a strong start, just like they did with the nominations when I revealed them. Well, now the top 8 are virtual lock-ins, not to mention Nanoha and Hinagiku are darned close to being there, which means the only way we can get more voters is if we get some from C.C.'s camp, the Negima?! camp, the Higurashi camp, or (gulp) the Key camp, which would cause greater parity among the top but losing contestants will still be at the loss.

Originally Posted by wontaek

Now, the question is 'Will this happen next year?' The above probability is derived assuming wide range of contestant strength. If there exist more parity among the contestants ( less roadkills like Yurie and Konomi ), it will take much more number of games to determine top 16; we may need to wait up to 50 matches before saying who are the locks and who are on the bubble. If there will be more nomination write-ins and less automatic qualifiers, we may enjoy longer period of hope before sinking into despair.

As for the popularity and width of anime knowledge questions, we also need to consider that there exists dozens of anime series that are more popular if you consider all humans in the entire world. For someone to know and see Clannad, chances are that person has already seen scores( group of 20 ) of other anime before seeing Clannad. The bottom line is we couldn't get enough voters at the start to stave off Kyo-ani domination, and we may now never get enough voters to break the Kyo-ani 'tyranny' unless we do a major change of the ISML format.

Actually, there IS a way we can solve this problem really easily. I received an e-mail from one of our more devoted voters that stated the following:

Originally Posted by Britaniawolf, April 17

It's me again, i do have a small sugestgion regarding the necklace 'mini-tournaments'.
In some of your posts, you seem to disregard them, but i have an idea you may like the sound of.

In English soccer, teams can qualify for international competitions though 2 ways, though being at the top of their highest respective league, or winning the national cup, two are available so there are 2 available international spots.

I was thinking that you might be able to incorporate the idea into the necklaces, AKA, if the contestant wins a necklace, then the contestant wins a place in the next years league. This would make the Necklaces a lot more meaningful than just a pretty pendant and it should provide 'mid-season action' that this extremely long season has yet to offer.

On a side note, if the number of necklaces were to be increased/reduced (the current number, 7, is slightly out of sync with the 16 qualifiers, I suggest an 8th is somehow incorporated), then the nomination votes could be reduces significantly. Taking this years nomination as an example, if 8 separate contestants were to win a necklace, then the nomination number would reduce from 17 to 9. Even if the majority already qualify, then the highest ranked from each contest could be given the qualification place (this is also an english soccer idea, if the winner has already qualified for an international competition, then the runner up is given the place instead).

I hope you like my ideas. ^^

My initial response to this was no, because I had preferred the .500 rule and that it would not be fair for a necklace winner to steal a .500 slot just because one necklace period was tilted to her favor. Upon discussions about people leaving because the journey seems hopeless, I feel that this idea needs to be revisited, to be able to add a sense of motivation to the voters that "Hey, we could try again next year." I will add the prerequisite of must having a .500 record or higher to be able to use this condition. But of course, I need your input on this. As I said, it is very easy to manipulate a period into someone's favor, and I want to avoid criticism on that, but that can be dealt with by swapping match sets for dates into respective periods.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

I keep seeing the mention of "Kyon's Sister should not be here". While I can agree with that, it has nothing to so with the nomiation process as she was a pre-entry based on her success in Korean SaiMoe 2006. Therefore nothing can be done about her being in the contest. Only the 17 nominated girls were optional.

Next year will be different since I doubt Saimoe 2006 and 2007 entires (unless they happen to be in the top 16 of this tournament) will get included. Only Saimoe 2008 (Korea and Japan) plus Best Moe 2006-08 and ISML top 16 will be in the 2009 ISML...if I understand things correctly. Then it will be a return to the nominations. Unless Kyon's Sister does well in Best Moe, ISML, or somehow Haruhi returns before July, you won't see her again in 2009 ISML unless a whole lot of people nominate her into it (doubtful).

Under the current system, the entry list for 2009 will be this:

1. '08 ISML top 16
2. '08 Korea Best Moe Top 8 + overwritten slots.
3. '08 Anime Saimoe Tournament Japan Top 8 + overwritten slots
4. '08 Korea Super Best Moe Top 8 + overwritten slots
5. '08 ISML .500 winners (wait-listed in order of rank)
5. '09 Preliminary Nominations. (16 spots up for nomination, nominations are all-time).

The proposed system by Britaniawolf would add the Necklace winners into the first priority slot, which would mean the following:

1. If Shana (Shakugan no Shana) and Setsuna Sakurazaki (Negima?!) can grab 32 wins, they are locked-in. Same holds true for all necklace winners.
2. The top 16 would also be locked in. Assuming there are no overlaps, that leaves 23 slots taken.
3. Taking Korea and Japan into account, that increases the number to a maximum 47.
4. With the 16-nomination rule, candidates will be filled up so that we have 48 pre-qualified contestants.

If we run this next year, all Korea and Japan entries will be observed closely as they are being observed this year. If they don't prove to be total roadkills, we may be in for an awesome next year.

My plan is to revise the rules page tonight, so if I get enough input on this, I will add those in with the rule changes.

[Ahasuerus]

@Psieye:

"KyoAni minor characters with minimal screentime don't deserve their wins over very well developed non-KyoAni Moe girls" is also a valid point.

Believe it or not, this is a point I believe in. At nomination time, I was somewhat dismayed to see ALL the Clannad girls in the running, as I knew it was (a) inaccurate a representation of really moe girls (acc to my specs) and (b) sure to produce negative payback. I recall being really surprised that Kyou and Tomoya were so "In", and even Ryou, who seems to have more moe characteristics than either of the other two, make such a strong run. There were MANY girls whom I wanted to have a slot, but these girls took up so many. So, I wasn't happy about it but just figured that's the luck of the draw (and television schedule )...

So, I can see the other side. That being said, I have watched almost all of the series (except five, I think, which aren't interesting enough to involve the time investment). I have YouTubed clips to check most of them out though, just to be sure. And I'm thankful for this tourney having exposed me to so many titles I'd have missed otherwise.

And I'll agree (to a point) that KyoAni might not be the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I've really enjoyed comparing various studios' works over the past year. From their OPs to EDs, their production values and attention to detail and all the other things mentioned, they really are in the topmost tier. I don't see how that can be contested by anyone truly impartial. BUT, as the saying goes, YMMV, and so I have no problems with those who disagree. It's just that this vicious ganging-up seems... I dunno... "weird" is the only way I can put it atm

I know there are companies that can match the KyoAni "magic", such as Gonzo's Last Exile, to name only one. But you can find plenty who hate Gonzo as well (despite this amazing series), so... it would just be well to give credit where credit is due, but some people are too self-obsessed to give it a try, and too intolerant of others' views.

@wontaek:

For someone to know and see Clannad, chances are that person has already seen scores( group of 20 ) of other anime before seeing Clannad.

Good point. While I didn't rank it as high as Kanon, the reason it did do so well for me personally was that in comparison it pleased so many of my anime pleasure points But I was surprised to see Tomoya, Kyou and Ryou fare so well nomination-time (not to mention many others who were not moe to me).

The bottom line is we couldn't get enough voters at the start to stave off Kyo-ani domination, and we may now never get enough voters to break the Kyo-ani 'tyranny' unless we do a major change of the ISML format.

Another good point. And your quotes are well-placed

I would have liked to have seen more balance; maybe the nomination process can be adjusted next year. I'd have liked to see Osaka in, and Chii, and Misuzu (sorry, haters), and heck, even Rakka (Haibane-Renmei) included; it's just that KyoAni had so many recent series that their nominees cakewalked in, I guess.

Still, this is only the first year

[minhtam1638]

Originally Posted by Ahasuerus

Still, this is only the first year

That's the key word here. Nobody has ever done a Saimoé Round Robin competition, so there was no precedent for me to base this off of. The first year is always the experimental year, in that we're still figuring out how this will work out. We are now at the point where we are learning the early affects of a Round Robin tournament, and we would be able to use this data to improve on next year. While I still believe that one league of 64 is much better than 4 leagues of 16, we can be able to change pretty much the rest of the format so that a round robin league would be even more exciting.

I should also give mention that some of our top 16 contestants have faced rather easy opponents so far, and with their tough competition in Ruby and Diamond, they can take a pitfall. The only question is that will voters be aware of it.