[Manga] Claymore Chapter 78 Discussion

[King Lycan]

I don't think its possible to become full human when u have become a claymore because its like your whole body has been infused its like the chimera of Full Metal Alchemist they are joind equally together

[chibamonster]

Claymores can at least get along in human society like Galatea did if they want to. Becoming human would only mean they get to die of old age but lose all that makes them really awesome as warriors. The thing that would be more interesting than a claymore becoming a human again for me is a claymore who is able to have children. Maybe they can, but we have seen nothing to indicate it. Helen's talk to Clare about Raki when she first met him seems to indicate that they cannot have children. For being invincible to old age most claymores seem to have a fairly short life span. AB's are the ones who really get to enjoy longevity... at least until they are killed...

[King Lycan]

pssh imagine Irene haveing kids omg she would be so cold to them

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by Awakened

lol, there is a limit to every thing, thats going to far.

I jocked about Clare getting Miria legs, but Clare don't need it. She has yoki-reading, ok, she might need it against some openents, but for the most part she does not need it.

Priscilla power is just to great to overcome by a simple limb change. Ok maby she can get a hand from Riful. Riful is the next ABO that might die, the Org were trying to messure her strength. If she is going to die, she might give her favorit claymore and arm as a parting gift.

Where would you propose we attach Riful's arm to Clare? I vote the forehead. Surely with a 3rd arm which is so ideally positioned to bash someone over the head with, she'll finally be strong enough to beat Pricilla.

Just imagine the expression on Raki's face...

[Awakened]

Originally Posted by Cyclone

Where would you propose we attach Riful's arm to Clare? I vote the forehead. Surely with a 3rd arm which is so ideally positioned to bash someone over the head with, she'll finally be strong enough to beat Pricilla.

Just imagine the expression on Raki's face...

lol
It would be better to attach the arm on her side, but if she does that it would be kind of odd, so she would need one more arm to complement her 3rd arm.

[tenken627]

Wow, a lot of stuff I have to catch up on.

Rafaela's Eye Gouge:

Interesting thought Chiba. If Luciela herself was the one who gouged out Rafaela's eye, intentionally or unintentionally, you might say that the experiment was already a failure by then. Alicia was under the MiB's complete control, and I would imagine Luciela would be the same before the experiment started to fail. As long as Rafaela was doing her part, Luciela would never have started to go wild and start to attack everything.

Unless of course, it was entirely accidental and Rafaela was standing too close and Luciela *bumped* into her while she was backing up or something.

Alicia and Beth Soul-link and Soul-merge

When Galatea first sees Alicia and Beth, she immediately comes to the conclusion that in order for the soul-link to work, Alicia and Beth would have little of themselves left. Rubel confirms it. It seems like there is no way around that from what they know.

Is it possible that soul-link and soul-merge are one and the same? Was Luciela and Rafaela supposed to merge their souls as well during the experiment, but Rafaela was too afraid to?

Sleepy Speculator's Theory of Theories

I see that your theory of Clare rejoining the Organization is based on many other theories that you have, making one giant pyramid of theories.

Let me help fine tune your theories:

How would the other Ghosts knowing about Clare's past push Clare towards rejoining the Organization? I'm still confused about that part. Wouldn't the Ghosts knowing Clare's history make them come together even more?

There are at least some limits to Clare's revenge on Priscilla, as shown by her turning down Riful's offer to take out Isley + Priscilla together.

I'm not sure that each Handler has set ranks given to them. The ranks do change as Claymores go up and down in rank. Does that mean if Miata becomes #1, Orsay becomes her handler? Or if Galatea somehow dropped to #8, Ermita no longer is her handler?

We won't ever know if Clare is meant to be stuck at #47 forever. She was pretty weak pre-Rabona, and she partially Awakened at Rabona. If Clare never Awakened, and had gotten stronger through some other way, I don't see why she wouldn't be promoted to a higher rank. I don't know if you can use Rafaela's case with Clare.

Clare Full Awakening: MalakTawus

It might be possible that Clare can fully Awaken somehow and return to normal, whether through soul-link or not. We don't have much info on soul-link and Priscilla has to be taken down somehow (unless Priscilla wins in the end).

Happy Ending

I never read Angel Densetsu. Does it have a happy ending? Do you guys think that Claymore will end happily? At least for Clare + Raki?

[chibamonster]

Hmm, thinking some more about Raphaela's eye from tenken's post. We have seen Clare on several occasions lose control over her body because of the youki flow. I wonder if when a soul link fails it goes in a simmilar fashion? I would not imagine they would lose control all at once especially when fighting against it. Awakening can be done quickly as seen with Alicia and Beth, but there seems to be some moments of struggle before a human heart is lost completely giving the partially awakened claymores time to return or Priscilla time to plead for death. I think that would be the point when Raphaela would have been injured if any. Much like when Clare's awakened limbs attacked Jean. Awakened Luciella could have killed Raphaela but did not seem interested. Luciella even said she missed her when Raphaela appeared before her again. I think Luciella is the only one who could have hurt Raphaela in a controlled experiment setting and while she was slipping away would have been the perfect time. It would have shaken Raphaela's concentration even more and magnified any momentary weakness she displayed.

I think what we have seen with Clare coming back from her limit with Galatea's help has something to do with the soul link. When Clare and Jean returned each other they synchronized their youki with one another to get back. This is just my opinion, but I do not think a soul link requires that the claymores have the same youma parts or that their personalities merge except maybe during the link itself for a real legitimate 'soul link'. This is because of the individuality seen by Luciella and Raphaela. I think the organization used the same youma parts on twins to make the soul link even more reliable not because it was necessary to do the soul link. It seems the twins are an improvement on the experiment that failed with Raphaela and Luciella. It might be more difficult for two claymores who are individuals to link but then again returning from over the limit is supposed to be impossible anyway and we know of 5 claymores who have managed it without formal training. As Rodgers & Hammerstein said in the musical Cinderella; "Impossible things are happening every day."'

And a soul link with a partially awakened claymore would probably be much easier anyway. Less work!

[tenken627]

Hmmm. Well soul-linking and fully Awakening are two different things.

Soul-linking enables someone to fully Awaken and come back. I don't think just because you soul-link means that you Awaken. Maybe perfect soul-merging is only necessary (or more reliable) when you soul-link and fully Awaken.

There could be other uses for soul-linking, without fully Awakening. Something that doesn't require the perfection of fully merged souls.

One possibility could be the lending of youki energy to another?
Ex. Galatea and Clare soul-link so that Clare can call up twice as much youki energy?

Another possibility could be the lending of youki abilities to another?
Ex. Galatea and Clare soul-link so that Clare can regenerate herself quickly?

This is all far-fetched, but there may be other uses to soul-linking between two different individuals.

Is soul-linking a permanent link? Or is it a temporary link that is used only when needed?

Edit: That would have to mean that Luciela + Rafaela were already soul-linked before Luciela Awakened. There was no problems there. So soul-linking can be done between two different individuals without them losing their personalities. Problems arise when one of them fully Awakens.

But other than that, the soul-link between Luciela + Rafaela was a success.

[Cyclone]

Originally Posted by tenken627

Hmmm. Well soul-linking and fully Awakening are two different things.

Soul-linking enables someone to fully Awaken and come back. I don't think just because you soul-link means that you Awaken. Maybe perfect soul-merging is only necessary (or more reliable) when you soul-link and fully Awaken.

There could be other uses for soul-linking, without fully Awakening. Something that doesn't require the perfection of fully merged souls.

One possibility could be the lending of youki energy to another?
Ex. Galatea and Clare soul-link so that Clare can call up twice as much youki energy?

Another possibility could be the lending of youki abilities to another?
Ex. Galatea and Clare soul-link so that Clare can regenerate herself quickly?

This is all far-fetched, but there may be other uses to soul-linking between two different individuals.

Is soul-linking a permanent link? Or is it a temporary link that is used only when needed?

Edit: That would have to mean that Luciela + Rafaela were already soul-linked before Luciela Awakened. There was no problems there. So soul-linking can be done between two different individuals without them losing their personalities. Problems arise when one of them fully Awakens.

But other than that, the soul-link between Luciela + Rafaela was a success.

I see the soul link as a different technique altogether than what Clare/Galatea/Jean used.

Clare mentions early on (black card chapter) that being a Claymore means that the human side and the youma side are in coflict within you.

I see the Galatea technique more as "sending reinforcements" to a losing battle. The individual's soul is still in the body, but it's just losing to the youma. Through youki alignment, the helper beats back the attacking youki giving the human soul enough room to win the battle itself.

The Soul Link technique I see as more as "evacuating the fort", letting the enemy take it over, gathering re-inforcements somewhere else and re-capturing the fort. To bring someone back from a soul link, it is thus necessary to not only re-take the fort from the youki, but also put the evacuated soul back into the body (making it very different from Galatea's technique [where she puts her youki in, instead of taking someone elses soul out]). Needless to say, but this moving souls around would be difficult - so the less to move around the better (ergo Alicia and Beth).

Since I believe this is how it works, I don't think the duration of the awakening is as much of a factor in the soul link (hence I believe what I believe regarding Luciella) - while Galatea's technique is absolutely time critical and delays can cause the soul to lose to the youma side with no way of return.

Just my $0.02

[chibamonster]

We have seen a few different things with the partial awakenings and the soul link. Galatea forced Clare's youki back down. Jean and Clare synchronized their youki to one another as neither was great at manipulating the others youki like Galatea. Jean especially could only offer Clare a target to synchronize her youki too. The AB in Pieta could force Claymore's youki to rise against their will. Soul linking seems to transmit the claymores very soul where it is contained in another claymore for the duration of the link. The soul link is harder on the one holding the soul than it is on the one giving the soul away it seems.

I am not sure who exactly is in charge of the movements during a time of the soul link. With alicia and beth it does not matter because they are essentially the same person. But with Raphaela I wonder if her job was to contain Luciella's soul while Luciella, whose human heart would still be maintained by her sister, would control the movements of her fully awakened body. Raphaela having to do all the work, both containing and controlling, seems too difficult as active suppression of youki is a major part of the soul link.

I really might be misunderstanding the soul link as well. The soul may never actually be transmitted completely from the awakened beings body, but instead protected by the claymore suppressing their youki. The human heart is somehow entrusted to the one suppressing their youki in a simmilar but perfect alignment than Galatea can do with her own youki manipulation. As I understand it the soul is transmitted by youki but I am not certain.

Whatever the case it seems that someone will struggle to maintain their human heart, whether it is an individual in their partial awakening, a soul link, synchronized return, or anything else. It seems that it is not an easy thing. We also learn a bit about awakening; essentially that as long as the human heart is contained somehow an awakened body can always be suppressed back and the urge to eat guts can be stopped.

[gnc742]

i think the reason why Alicia can fully awaken is because Beth is controlling her mind or perhaps her heart so that she still has the consciousness of a human. Perhaps Beth aligns her yoma to Alicia so that she can choose which opponent to attack.. well something like that i guess...

Well Raphaela is alive somewhere.. She has to be.. And why would she die... Remember she killed her sister. So she probably is in the South right now.. Perhaps she would be an ally of the G7(8 with Galatea) but she wouldn't join them because her purpose is complete.. and she feels like she has no more reason to live...

About Galatea, i think at first, she will refuse to join but is insisted by Miria or Clare. She then gets her arm and eyesight back.

somehow I want Clare and the others to go back to the org. but that isn't going to happen because if that would happen, its not much of a twist. I think that lots of things will happen before Clare meets Priscilla. She will discover her latent abilities sooner or later.

Although Clare is strong, she is no match for Priscilla right now. If she is the strong claymore Isley and Miata was talkin about, then good.

At the organization i think they are threatened by the survivors of the north. They will send somebody after the Ghost 7 and Galatea. Probably Audrey, Ray, Miata, Clarice, and Lune on it..

Who do you think is better? Miria or Clare? I think Clare is better. Even Miria admits it right? During the Slashers arc. She felt Clare was the strongest standing before her. And the reason Clare lost back then was because she was trying to decipher the yoki inside Miria.

Cant w8 for the next chap..

[Vinak]

in the Slashers Arc. Miria is probably stronger than Clare. Clare may have been able to hold her ground for a while if she took her seriously but would have lost once Miria used her phantom, Clare just wasn't very fast at that time.

I think after her four-limb awakening Clare becomes much stronger than Miria. Post time skip, Clare only gets knocked on her ass because she wasn't fighting seriously. Even after she started using her Wind Cutter I still think she wasn't fighting seriously. She was only defending herself.

I have a feeling Clare is hiding her true strength for some reason.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by Vinak

in the Slashers Arc. Miria is probably stronger than Clare. Clare may have been able to hold her ground for a while if she took her seriously but would have lost once Miria used her phantom, Clare just wasn't very fast at that time.

I think after her four-limb awakening Clare becomes much stronger than Miria. Post time skip, Clare only gets knocked on her ass because she wasn't fighting seriously. Even after she started using her Wind Cutter I still think she wasn't fighting seriously. She was only defending herself.

I have a feeling Clare is hiding her true strength for some reason.

I totally agree!Imo Clare is probably hiding her true powers,i don't know why she should hiding it from her friends,but afterall she is hiding a lot of other things from them......I love Claire!She's cold as ice!

Btw i still think that if Claire fully aweken she can beat Priscilla because she could combine her powers and Teresa's youma powers.....and i'm sure this will be the way Claire and Priscilla will fight......i just hope Claire can return from a full awekening,but wtf,she is special!

[Sleepy Speculator]

If it's allowed, i ask that you ignore any particular aspect of my theories you find flawed, i'm only speculating, and by nature i'm a very holistic kind of person (Earth Sciences can do that to your mind).

@tenken Miria can't forgive the org for what they did to her and other claymores regarding making them monsters/claymores/hybrids, it's something that most claymores take for granted, that they are all orphans who were taken and made claymores against their will. You can see why teresa cut down the first purge squad, when Orsay has his hand on clare's shoulder and tells teresa, that what happens to the girl is none of her business (even then clare was being lined up for claymorehood) Clare turns this around by taking teresa's head and volunteering to the first mib she meets... This quite frankly will seem unhinged to the other claymores, in the org's long history clare is the only volunteer they've had, and it explains why she's an offensive claymore, she's out for revenge.

Clare's ultimate goal is to kill Priscilla, but she's stuggling all the time with her emotions, (she's more human than the rest), she's seen what happens if she lets it get the better of her, and ophelia is like a dark mirror image of what could happen if she ain't careful. She fully intends to die human, but if possible she will kill Priscilla however she can, she won't team with Riful, because that means becoming a monster, even with partial limb awakening, she still had a human mind, and asked helen to kill her, she went beserk not only because flora and jean died but to save miria, like most instances with clare it wasn't entirely selfish.

The handlers handling specific ranks is just a pet theory... i know Elena's rank isn't mentioned, but she had to be higher than 47, and yet despite being more reliable, having worked longer, and finishing Elena off clare wasn't given the promotion to the open slot, i mean really although new claymores could be more powerful yoki wise, they don't have the experience, and it's been shown that claymores can fight for a number position, what would be the great difference between a dual and a black card... the slot opens either way to the claymore left alive/who wins. Clare could certainly take it from many of the other claymores she met upto around flora's rank, even before she could use yoki perception. I'll post more later, after i can get my head into philosophy mode.

@malak, i don't know if clare can sense her own aura, but chances are if that last limb awakening boosted her power, then her supression is actively hiding from everyone her current power level, that and whatever else she secretly learned whilst searching for raki, and away from prying eyes.

[gnc742]

Maybe Claymores are allowed to fight for a position in the organization. Like what Noel and Sophia was about to do but was stopped by Irene. Maybe they're allowed to battle and besides the only forbidden rule was to kill humans. They're half yoma. So they can kill each other.

[MalakTawus]

Originally Posted by gnc742

Maybe Claymores are allowed to fight for a position in the organization. Like what Noel and Sophia was about to do but was stopped by Irene. Maybe they're allowed to battle and besides the only forbidden rule was to kill humans. They're half yoma. So they can kill each other.

Well,they could fight each other without killing each other......

[Sleepy Speculator]

They certainly don't flinch from purge operations, clare was worried about raki being killed by ophelia drawing the org's attention, not herself it was just a given, that ophelia could get away with kiling her or any other claymore to an extent, ie... i had to put them down, they were awakening, the only thing that saved miria was the presence of two other claymores on the AB hilda hunt. Also in the more friendly dual between flora and clare, flora said it would be great if quicksword was really that much more powerful that her own windcutter... which implies it's fair enough to kill another claymore in a dual. Though i am wondering why she kept clare in her team despite knowing she was of commander strength, given the situation they were in...

[irvinethearcher]

Originally Posted by awakened

I was thinking when you awaken you get a shape, then you have to live with it. You can ajust it, but not by much. If you patially awaken you have the freedom to change the way you want. For example if you want wings, then you might be able to get it. I only saw Elise change his hands, so am not sure if all ABs can do it.

Interesting theorie. But i think it depends on the subconcious mind of the claymore which awakens and that's difficult to control for the claymore. Isley 4example can manipulate his limbs into weapons and clare really thought about getting faster. And the choice to be an offensive/defensive type is something which comes from the subconcious too. Perhaps you're right.

[gnc742]

Originally Posted by irvinethearcher

Interesting theorie. But i think it depends on the subconcious mind of the claymore which awakens and that's difficult to control for the claymore. Isley 4example can manipulate his limbs into weapons and clare really thought about getting faster. And the choice to be an offensive/defensive type is something which comes from the subconscious too. Perhaps you're right.

about your theory, i think theres something missing. Because when priscilla awakened, she wasn't in need for anything. She didn't say she likes to have more power, or speed. For Clare's case. I think what we see is her true awakened form. It doesn't matter if she craves for strength. That's it. And about Isley manipulating his Limb, its his special ability like Luciela, she had that ability to chew things. Its not like they crave for it right?

I don't think the choice of becoming an offensive or defensive comes from subconsciousness . Its depends on the claymore. If she wants to kill the enemy she becomes offensive. If she thinks of surviving the fight, she becomes defensive.

[Blackbird]

Originally Posted by gnc742

Because when priscilla awakened, she wasn't in need for anything.

But didn't she have an overwhelming desire to kill Teresa? I'm sure she knew subconciously she couldn't defeat her.

Originally Posted by gnc742

I don't think the choice of becoming an offensive or defensive comes from subconsciousness . Its depends on the claymore. If she wants to kill the enemy she becomes offensive. If she thinks of surviving the fight, she becomes defensive.

I think you're right here though, but it's still on some levels a subconcious change. I'm sure even though Deneve kept saying 'I want to live' she didn't just wake up one day as a defense type.