Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And really I have stated this before, but the SAZ is not really the start of change, if anything it undermines the idea that the Numbers can be integrated into Britannia society without discrimination because of the need of such "reserves" were they are removed from normal Britannian society. A better and more productive change would be to revise and revisit the Honourary Britannian system, give them close to or the same rights an opportunities as a normal Britannian. Give the Numbers more incentive to be productive Britannians and integrate them into their society. The fact that they chose to just shove them into a small area like the SAZ just means they are unwilling to compromise and is just using the SAZ to contain Zero.

Honorary Britannian system gives almost the same rights. Of course, you can't get high in military and , i guess, in court/senate. But there is nothing wrong with that.
It's just that Elevens pride is too big. Why aren't there revolutions in other areas? Except for that Area 18.
Of course if Eleven revolt they will not get *gifts* from Britannia.
Right now Area 11 is already in satellite state (what ever that means). There is increase in productivity and something else. The peaceful way is working just fine, when there aren't some guys revolting...

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

Honorary Britannian system gives almost the same rights. Of course, you can't get high in military and , i guess, in court/senate. But there is nothing wrong with that.
It's just that Elevens pride is too big. Why aren't there revolutions in other areas? Except for that Area 18.
Of course if Eleven revolt they will not get *gifts* from Britannia.
Right now Area 11 is already in satellite state (what ever that means). There is increase in productivity and something else. The peaceful way is working just fine, when there aren't some guys revolting...

You are also limited in the jobs you can get, you can't get the same higher paying jobs Britannians can. Honourary Britannians have less rights and opportunities then Britannians.

And the reason Area 11's resistance movement is more fierce is because Japan surrendered when it's military was still largely intact that the people were never "conquered" in the full sense of the word. People still cling to the hope such as Toudou the Miracle. It was mentioned several times in R1.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

You are also limited in the jobs you can get, you can't get the same higher paying jobs Britannians can. Honourary Britannians have less rights and opportunities then Britannians.

And the reason Area 11's resistance movement is more fierce is because Japan surrendered when it's military was still largely intact that the people were never "conquered" in the full sense of the word. People still cling to the hope such as Toudou the Miracle. It was mentioned several times in R1.

Is that strange? The war was only 8 years ago, you can't give them full rights, it's too risky.
And you have to admit, but SAZJ is working.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

Is that strange? The war was only 8 years ago, you can't give them full rights, it's too risky.
And you have to admit, but SAZJ is working.

You seem to be missing something, but Honourary Britannian status is not given but earned by the Numbers who want to become Britannian citizens throught their own hard work. Why is it risky to give them better rights and opportunities when those people want to become part of thier society? Not doing so is just fostering dissent which gives power to people like Zero.

And the SAZ did not work, Area 11 is stable now because Zero left to make a ruckus in China and took many of the people who do not wish for Britannian rule with him. And also they now have a Governor that is sympathetic to their needs. Britannians like Rohmeyer were content to give the shaft to the Japanese in her planning, it was only Nunally that insisted on the Japanese's needs be taken into account as well.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

You seem to be missing something, but Honourary Britannian status is not given but earned by the Numbers who want to become Britannian citizens throught their own hard work. Why is it risky to give them better rights and opportunities when those people want to become part of thier society? Not doing so is just fostering dissent which gives power to people like Zero.

And the SAZ did not work, Area 11 is stable now because Zero left to make a ruckus in China and took many of the people who do not wish for Britannian rule with him. And also they now have a Governor that is sympathetic to their needs. Britannians like Rohmeyer were content to give the shaft to the Japanese in her planning, it was only Nunally that insisted on the Japanese's needs be taken into account as well.

All you have to do to get Honorary Britannian status is to send your documents to central department and pledge your loyalty to Britannia, it was stated by Suzaku.
And the SAZJ is working, when there aren't terrorists, who try to ruin it with their activity ( OoTBK).
And of course it's working because there are people like Nunally there. Not everyone is racist.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

And the SAZJ is working, when there aren't terrorists, who try to ruin it with their activity ( OoTBK).

The SAZJ isn't working. No one but the terrorists signed up, and they're gone.

[Eliarine]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

And the SAZ did not work, Area 11 is stable now because Zero left to make a ruckus in China and took many of the people who do not wish for Britannian rule with him. And also they now have a Governor that is sympathetic to their needs. Britannians like Rohmeyer were content to give the shaft to the Japanese in her planning, it was only Nunally that insisted on the Japanese's needs be taken into account as well.

The problem with both SAZs is that they were not given the chance to really work at all. The first one was destroyed the very day it was created, and it's only logical that very few people would want to join the second one let alone trust Britannia. It's easy to say something wouldn't have worked once it is gone.

But Nunally insisting that Rohmeyer listen to her and let her be sympathetic to the needs of the Japanese proves that change can happen.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

The SAZJ isn't working. No one but the terrorists signed up, and they're gone.

Then why is there stability of peace? Why was there increase in productivity? Why it was approved to increase Area 11 status to satellite?
Japan is already a special administrative zone.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

The problem with both SAZs is that they were not given the chance to really work at all. The first one was destroyed the very day it was created, and it's only logical that very few people would want to join the second one let alone trust Britannia.

Blah, who asks their opinion. Nunally just makes it better for them, want they it or not.

Edit: Who really don't like word SAZJ, read it as "Peaceful Way"

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

Then why is there stability of peace? Why was there increase in productivity? Why it was approved to increase Area 11 status to satellite?
Japan is already a special administrative zone.

I almost don't know where to begin. One, Japan is not a Special Administrative Zone. That tiny plot of seaside land was, and it failed. Two, there is peace, stability, and productivity because of the year-long absence of the Black Knights and their subsequent exile. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the failed administrative zone.

[Ruvixur]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

I almost don't know where to begin. One, Japan is not a Special Administrative Zone. That tiny plot of seaside land was, and it failed. Two, there is peace, stability, and productivity because of the year-long absence of the Black Knights and their subsequent exile. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the failed administrative zone.

Administration in Japan is different from other Areas, thus there is special administration in Japan, thus Japan is special administrative zone.
There is peace, stability and productivity not only because there aren't Black Knights, but also because there is Nunally, who took peaceful path.

Again, if you don't like SAZJ, read it as the use of peaceful way, without terrorism.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

All you have to do to get Honorary Britannian status is to send your documents to central department and pledge your loyalty to Britannia, it was stated by Suzaku.
And the SAZJ is working, when there aren't terrorists, who try to ruin it with their activity ( OoTBK).
And of course it's working because there are people like Nunally there. Not everyone is racist.

No, that is what you do to apply to be an Honourary Britannian, if that was all was needed then Elevens would not need to sign up for Military service to obtain citizenship.

morbosfist already answered your second point.

Originally Posted by Eliarine

The problem with both SAZs is that they were not given the chance to really work at all. The first one was destroyed the very day it was created, and it's only logical that very few people would want to join the second one let alone trust Britannia. It's easy to say something wouldn't have worked once it is gone.

But Nunally insisting that Rohmeyer listen to her and let her be sympathetic to the needs of the Japanese proves that change can happen.

I have already stated why the SAZ is not really a great idea in the first place and would not really help the problems inherent in the system.

One person is a start, but as apparent, the Britannian administration is content to lie to her and do not give the Japanese a second thought.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Ruvixur

Administration in Japan is different from other Areas, thus there is special administration in Japan, thus Japan is special administrative zone.
There is peace, stability and productivity not only because there aren't Black Knights, but also because there is Nunally, who took peaceful path.

No, administration in Japan is not different than in other Areas. That's just foolish. Also, don't play word games. Its status within the Empire is what changed, not how it is run. Nunnally hasn't been Viceroy nearly long enough to be responsible. The Viceroy before her, Calares, brought peace through brutality, and the Black Knights preserved it by exiling themselves. Nunnally just rode that to the restored status.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Var

Last time I checked, Lelouch was the one who said it would not work. Just because something is 'good' doesn't mean it won't be exploited, which was why it was created in the first place, to exploit those who wanted peace to get rid of the Order.

Even if something starts to change things, if a system as rigid as Britannia exists, then the change is likely to have no effect and be destroyed just as quickly as the Senator that Rolo assassinated.

Are we talking about the first attempt at the SAZ?

Last I checked, Lelouch was completely against it because it would destroy the black knights (literally), which meant that it WOULD work. Otherwise if he knew it would go down in flames at the start he wouldn't be bothering with it at all.

[morbosfist]

Just because it would have destroyed his support doesn't mean it would have worked. In the long term, the idea would ave fallen apart.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Just because it would have destroyed his support doesn't mean it would have worked. In the long term, the idea would ave fallen apart.

Oh I'm sure someone as smart as Lelouch who sees several steps ahead of everyone else would see that and then just sit back and wait for the masses to come back to him.

Even Schenzeil wouldn't have approved of it if it wasn't going to work.

My question is this, if it's not going to work in the long run then what's the point? You get a month of peace and then after that everything's gone to hell again and you have to do it all over again.

Point being, Schenzeil sure as hell doesn't want to come back. If trouble brews again then he has to make another trip over there to correct things. He's got better things to do and I doubt he wants Euphie to be put in danger. He even said it himself that with Euphie, peace will finally return to Japan and stay there.

If he was aware it would collapse then he wouldn't be bothering with it at all. (And we are not talking about real life here, this is a show after all where things work differently)

[morbosfist]

Lelouch just can't wait for it to fall apart because it damages his position. if he doesn't help, it looks like he doesn't care. If he does, it's seen as giving in to Britannia. No matter how ill-conceived it was, its very existence destroyed his ability to fight back. That's why it had to fall apart on the spot.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Lelouch just can't wait for it to fall apart because it damages his position. if he doesn't help, it looks like he doesn't care. If he does, it's seen as giving in to Britannia. No matter how ill-conceived it was, its very existence destroyed his ability to fight back. That's why it had to fall apart on the spot.

Still doesn't answer my question.

If it brings back peace for only a very short period of time (like a month) then what's the point? Then they have to start again and the people will be even more pissed off than ever (Aside from the massacre of course).

Schenzeil would see this far ahead.

You see Nunnally, whose blind and can't walk, forcing the adminstrators to follow her every step and if they are off an inch from what she envisions, she forces them back on track.

Why can't Euphie do that?

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Oh I'm sure someone as smart as Lelouch who sees several steps ahead of everyone else would see that and then just sit back and wait for the masses to come back to him.

Imagine you're chased by a bear, and decide to play dead. The bear tears off your limbs. It's too late to say "this isn't working, I'd better climb a tree". That's what would have happened. Had he let the SAZ go as planned, he'd have lost momentum, credibility, and people. Not to mention, probably his life, unless he successfully disappeared. Now, he probably had a few tricks to keep that from happening - that's why Euphie managed to persuade him in the end. But would they have worked? His track record against Schneizel isn't that good, and it'd have been an uphill battle.

Even Schenzeil wouldn't have approved of it if it wasn't going to work.

Work? Work for whom? Euphie had her objective, and Schneizel had his.

My question is this, if it's not going to work in the long run then what's the point? You get a month of peace and then after that everything's gone to hell again and you have to do it all over again.

You get a year of peace, during which you make your hold on the rebels' balls secure. And then, you squeeze. Can't see the point of that?

Point being, Schenzeil sure as hell doesn't want to come back. If trouble brews again then he has to make another trip over there to correct things. He's got better things to do and I doubt he wants Euphie to be put in danger. He even said it himself that with Euphie, peace will finally return to Japan and stay there.

You know, you should really stop believing what politicians say. Especially when it's close to what their audience wants to hear.

If he was aware it would collapse then he wouldn't be bothering with it at all. (And we are not talking about real life here, this is a show after all where things work differently)

It wouldn't collapse. It would, quite simply, become useless. And then, the Britanians would revert to type.

[orangejuicetang]

If I remember, in the game if you don't go the stadium and trigger the whole massacre thing, the SAZ suceeds and apparently it is successful. I don't own the game, so this is just some info that I picked up, and I don't know how canon the game is considered though.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

You know, you should really stop believing what politicians say. Especially when it's close to what their audience wants to hear.

You know, you should realize that this is a show so anything that they state is obviously there to stay (in real life this probably wouldn't work too well anyways).

Unless your implying that Schenzeil's been breaking the fourth wall.

If I remember, in the game if you don't go the stadium and trigger the whole massacre thing, the SAZ suceeds and apparently it is successful. I don't own the game, so this is just some info that I picked up, and I don't know how canon the game is considered though.

Which is my point, if the writers make it/shape it so that it succeeds and works which is a huge threat to Lelouch, then it'll work regardless of how you argue against it.

The reason for it is to make Euphie's and Suzaku's dreams come true. The higher you are the harder you fall.

If we are informed the whole thing's going to hell the second it starts regardless of Lelouch's joke, then it kinda ruins the scene and mood and it's purpose. Not to mention you wouldn't get the same devastation that the writers are looking for. It's suppose be sincere, so they can make it look more brutal when it falls apart because of one bad joke.