2011-12-04, 05:05 | Link #26082 |
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Rokkenjima
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guy's in ep6 "kanon does not exist in the guest room" can explained
like this right ? Kanon , went it . he changed himself to shannon or yasu and hid herself in the closet or the bedroom . Last edited by battle22; 2011-12-04 at 06:11. |
2011-12-04, 16:07 | Link #26084 | |
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Location: Yesterday!
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Been thinking about something sorta bugging me.
How did Yasu learn about Kyrie being Battler's mother? What made her include in the story that Rudolf was about to reveal it to Battler? Like many such mysteries... the solution that it already happened by the time Yasu wrote down the arc seems to sound the best, but I was wondering if anyone had any other explanations? Overall I also sorta don't get the purpose of that sub-story. It doesn't seem relevant at all concerning any murders that ever occurs, it seems like the only point was for Beato to make that "denying Battler's own existence" thing. Perhaps it's to give Battler a scenario equivalent to Yasu. Like she learned that Natsuhi was her adoptive mother and that Beatrice-II was her real mother, so he has a similar situation. Quote:
Will also refers both to fantasy scene and meta-scenes when solving the answers in arc 7. I'm fairly certain they are included. Also I'm fairly certain that "the logic" of an arc is that a story is already written and the player and gamemaster are basically using it to play a game, like Gaap-Beatrice did with Yasu with and then there were none. So most likely then not a "real" text exists for every single arc and then the meta and magic worlds are weaved atop of it. Some arcs like arc 3 and 5 really seem to have two different writers as well. Like a second, truth-knowing writer corrected the theories written into an arc by others. Last edited by UsagiTenpura; 2011-12-04 at 16:40. |
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2011-12-04, 16:15 | Link #26085 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2011
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There are assorted theories for this, as far as I know the most popular are: -Prior to the Rokkenjima incident Yasu used the money she inherited to learn more about the Ushiromiya and ended up discovering this -Prior to the Rokkenjima incident Yasu ended up hearing a conversation between Rudolf and someone else in which it was revealed -The stories were written post the Rokkenjima incident. During the incident either Kirye or Rudolf revealed the truth and Yasu happened to hear it. -Yasu didn't include it in her stories. What we read was a relaboration of Yasu's stories made by Toya's mind as he read them. Since he had learnt the truth prior or during the Rokkenjima incident and then forgotten about it due to his loss of memory his mind added that scene in an effort to help him recovering his memory (or something like that) -... and there are some others but I can't remember them... :P As for the relevance of the scene... Well, it really depends on what happened in RPrime. In a fashion the situation is ironic because Kirye finds hard to deal with Battler because she thinks of him as Asumu's son (though she didn't show it on the outside) while actually he's her son. It gets even more bitterly ironic if you think that in RPrime Kirye might have tried to kill him like Kasumi tried to do with Ange to settle her feelings of jealousy toward Asumu. Though this is just speculation. We don't know if Kirye even tried to harm Battler in R Prime. And yes, Ryukishi might have liked the parallelism. Plus this is useful in Ep 5 when Battler tries to make us believe he was the culprit. |
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2011-12-04, 16:40 | Link #26086 |
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Lol, thanks for spotting my mistake I'll fix that...
And thanks for the list of theories. I wouldn't be too surprised to learn that in "Rokkenjima prime" Kyrie's the one who killed Rudolf. I mean to her the story was "I tragically lost my baby while Asumu didn't and Rudolf had no choice but go with her" to "He went as far as stealing my baby and making me believe he died to replace the dead baby of Asumu in order to be with her and not with me". Thinking of it, there's a pattern isn't there? Kinzo's secret child (Beatrice-II) Rudolf's secret child (Battler-II) Battler's "child" (or at least she calls him father) (ChickBeato) |
2011-12-05, 21:43 | Link #26087 |
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The meta-world adds additional rules, narrows down many theories, and provides strong hints to things the Witch Hunters seem clueless about. Basically, their ignorance is forgivable if certain forms of information we rely upon are not available in the actual original text.They are all meta-characters, so it's not really relevant that they're using meta-knowledge.
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2011-12-06, 00:39 | Link #26089 | |
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There's also the issue of the Meta-Narrative not existing in (almost all of) ep1. If a magic/meta-narrative is integral to the stories, why doesn't Legend have one, and why does it read just fine without one?
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2011-12-06, 10:19 | Link #26090 | |
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To me it's pretty clear that even the Ura are included in the "forgeries". Witch-hunters themselves might be nothing more then in-story characters too. |
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2011-12-06, 10:47 | Link #26091 |
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Is there a non meta scene in EP4 where Ange mentions meta Battler at all? How does she describe the letters themselves? Weren't they written in an almost diary like way and later signed by Maria (as if Maria was writing them)?
Any form of meta information in those seems unlikely. Meta might have been introduced in Tohya's books though. Still, I'd have to wonder then, if in Umineko's world there is a distinction between the letters and the books, why consider these books as anything other than fan fiction? Would it really garner any attention at all? |
2011-12-06, 12:47 | Link #26092 | |
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That aside, do you honestly believe the texts of End and Dawn make any sense as in-universe books the way they're presented to us as ep5 and ep6? Particularly if Dawn's narrative just ends and the whole thing turns into meta-spectacle? Wouldn't some mention be paid somewhere, anywhere, to all that weird meta-nonsense flying around in those forgeries? Why didn't Ange ask about them, or Ootsuki mention how the series has been getting more and more magical? Why is there an invisible barrier of sorts between how meta-activity is applied and how the actual narrative seems to react to it, even in Dawn where Erika is doing her damndest to derail it (to say nothing of End where it's wholly disconnected)? Why is End so toned-back in its board narrative if escalating magic is the intent, since the escalation occurs in only one scene and then a bunch of Meta-Stuff? Wouldn't there be some goats who think the Meta-World is real and that there is an alternative "meta-solution" to the witch/human culprit theories? If the Witch Hunters themselves are story characters, what is the point of their inclusion? So Touya can threaten his own meta-fictional world with attacks he himself made up? Why would the Tea Parties be separated out if they're part of the main story? Is there any evidence anyone has actually been able to use the reds Lambda provided in the ep4 ura, which would have been in the text (if everything else was, so too would red)? There's also the disconnect between 1998 Ange and ANGE that Cao Ni Ma's pointed out; if you look closely, you can see that ANGE has knowledge Ange does not, and that Ange's questions to people and general conclusions ought to change dramatically if she knew some of the things ANGE knows. In ep6, there basically is no Ange, just ANGE. Oh and don't forget she just kind of shows back up again after dying in ep4, so apparently if the Meta-Narrative is in the actual works it's full of poorly-explained plot holes that no reader ever questions. So no, it's not "pretty clear." You're putting trust in a narrative that has been reinterpreted at least once, possibly multiple times, to tell you about the base narrative. It would be foolish to do that, and it leads to a lot of questions that don't seem to square up very well. And again, you're not explaining why Legend completely lacks any such elements and works fine without them, and how not one person comments on the apparent disconnect between even the original message bottle stories (ignoring forgeries entirely for now, since Turn has Magic + Meta). For Meta-Narrative to be so ordinary and expected that no character in the story ever comments on its integration into the series, you must either concede that Legend's main body had Meta-Narrative, or that absolutely no one saw fit to ever comment on it not appearing until the Tea Party, or that the Tea Parties are also part of the main narrative (as you just claimed), and that the main narrative was carefully sequentially structured, yet that by the end of ep5 an Ange with all that information available to her plus most of the Witch Hunters couldn't figure anything out, i.e. they are stupid, my original claim. Also that, apparently, Touya created Will, because you've just said the Meta-Narrative is part of the story, which means Will/Lion/etc. are part of the more or less wholly Meta-Narrative of Requiem, which means Touya wrote them. And I guess Touya wrote about 1998 Ange in Alliance and about himself writing about himself writing about himself in Twilight, right? I mean, it's in the text, and you've proposed the texts contain no extractions or additional material, so... EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not saying it's impossible that what you're saying could be the case. It's just doesn't fit as well as other interpretations of where the original text/magic/meta/interpretation divisions are.
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2011-12-06, 16:01 | Link #26093 | |||||
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I never thought that it was Maria who actually signed, just that it was signed "Ushiromiya Maria" by Yasu for maximum intrigue. I'm not even sure how well the authenticity of a 9-year-old girl's signature could be verified. Maybe they could check some school assignments that she wrote her name on, but even that may be different than an official signature. And if it truly was verified as her signature, it would be a very relevant piece of information that should have been mentioned at some point in EP4 in Ange's journey. I have wondered sometimes if Maria did in fact survive somehow. Her jaw of all things was the only physical evidence discovered for the death of anybody? It's fishy. Quote:
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The real issue is the continuity that exists in the Meta-World over the supposed change in authorship. The Meta-World introduced in Turn clearly indicated there would be future games, and once Banquet was released there would no longer be room for Land or other bottle-stories to be retconned back into the Meta-World's narrative. It basically requires Yasu to be Ikuko and for her to have written the original bottle-stories with carefully orchestrated plans to continue. Quote:
Yeah. For me it's really all up in the air; I have no idea which interpretation fits best. I'm not sure if RK07 even does. |
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2011-12-06, 17:08 | Link #26094 | |||||
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I mean the only thing that's even marginally plausible that I can think of is something like "In their interactions, Yasu kept some of Maria's baby teeth after using 'magic' to turn them into money a la the Tooth Fairy, and then later just happened to use those teeth and a faked jaw to 'confirm' Maria's death." But then she'd need a reason to do that, and Maria doesn't appear to be alive. Who would she be living with? If Yasu were Ikuko, shouldn't she be living with her as Ikuko's "daughter" or something? If not, and she's alive, where the hell is she? Sure, Ange wanted to reunite with Battler, but I think reuniting with Maria would be equally important to her. Quote:
Given this, Meta-World Ange has only ever actually seen the Meta-World presentations of the stories. When she says something like "I read End," she wouldn't be talking about the R-Prime End (although Ange-Prime may well have read that End), but about the version she saw in which Natsuhi was accused, a Meta-Trial was held, and Battler switched sides and the rest of the board world story never happened. I think you can support this in that ANGE converses with Featherine and mentions her death in Alliance. She's probably not talking about the 1998 sequence where she appeared to die (unless that too is in Alliance, which seems absurd), but about the Meta-World death she experienced when trying to revive Battler. So the story she is aware of (and probably participated in) involved that scene. But that scene actually existing in Alliance would be both extremely bizarre and very out of character for Touya to include (he's already nervous enough about all the intimate details of Ushiromiya Battler's life, is he really going to have an intimate scene involving the sister he doesn't even remember?). Finally, we'd be forced to question what Requiem and Twilight even are. Are these works that exist in R-Prime in any sense? Are they works at all? Is the Lion world part of a forgery? If so, is Will's appearance part of it, or is he a special addition? Are the Kinzo and Yasu flashbacks part of it? If so, who wrote them and how did they know all of that information? Is the Tea Party bit Requiem, or part of it, or not? What the hell is Twilight, exactly? Quote:
So I would think the "proper" end of Alliance is when the explosion happens (whether the text specifically says that or not). All the stuff afterward about Beatrice asking him if he's satisfied and the transition into the Meta-Battle of the Ura/???? Party is added. The Ange stuff is probably not in Alliance at all. But having said that, I'm not sure what it is. The Ange backstory, and the endings in ep8... what exactly is that from? Ep6 suggests it's ANGE, not Ange, and that the pre-Meta part of meeting Featherine is basically the latter's illusion, but I see no reason to believe the parts in ep4 or ep8 are. If they are in Alliance, it seems like that would be a pretty significant thing, wouldn't it? Why is Touya engaging in such speculation about Ange? Why doesn't he continue? What is he doing there? How does he know the information she gathers, or is he making it all up and why? It does work in some ways (might at least explain Amakusa as Touya's fictionalized self-insert), but in others it's just... hrmph. Quote:
But the Meta-World would require a strict continuity from Turn to Banquet. As you've said, we've been told that the author of the bottles is not the author of Banquet and beyond, and nothing that would contradict that continuity (such as Land, an "official" story if you believe ep8) ever surfaces. That's remarkably fortunate! Unless, as you said, Ikuko was behind everything. If she were, she could suppress Land in favor of her collaboration with Touya to create Banquet. Quote:
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2011-12-07, 05:18 | Link #26095 | ||||
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When was her jaw discovered? I forget. Quote:
In EP6 Ange alludes to her past death twice, once clearly talking about her meta-"hamburger"-death with Featherine. The other time was with Ikuko where it's not exactly clear which death Ange is talking about except that the conversation immediately moves to Ange's miraculous jump from the skyscraper. In any case there are all sorts of other references to EP4 1998 events throughout Ange's interaction with Ikuko in EP6. I'm not sure exactly how consistent it is but... when Ange is talking to Ikuko her past is that of 1998 EP4 Ange, and when Ange is talking to Featherine her past is that of EP4 Meta-Ange. Quote:
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Oorrrrrrr... the clues we get from the non-meta narrative are actually meta-clues. Like how Kanon and Shannon never appear in front of Battler together is not how the original stories go, but some kind of amendment to the original texts that we get due to viewing them through the eyes of a certain reader (Battler/Touya). |
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2011-12-07, 05:58 | Link #26096 |
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Maria's jaw was found after the public outcry about Rokkenjima shortly after the letters were made public. It goes like this- Authorities dont find anything (or do but dont disclose it), letters signed by "Maria" are leaked and spark renewed interest, Authorities comb over the island again and only find Maria's jaw. I found the whole sequence kinda weird myself, wondered if the letters were signed "Battler" , would the authorities have found Battler's jaw instead? Did someone else go trough the trouble to actually plant this to make sure the person named Maria stayed dead?
There really isn't anything RK07 can do with this. Unless he planned some master stroke from the start, its already too late for him to do anything with it. I doubt he'll use "Our confessions" to stir more questions up except maybe to have Yasu=Ikuko being alluded to. But if he wants to pull something off, it will be with something involving Ikuko, thats for sure. Anyways, about Ange in EP6. The whole scene is meta from the start, but it stats of with some semblance of being a "real" scene. During that time, Ange mind is completely whacked, she feels like she remembers things but cant really connect the dots. Its not until it goes full meta that she can remember these things. |
2011-12-07, 09:39 | Link #26097 |
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Again though, I don't get the point of faking Maria's jaw if she's dead anyway. Everybody is believed to be dead regardless, and the only real connection is that Maria is the name that was signed to the message bottle letters.
I guess it sort of creates an "impossible crime" thing, except for the following problems:
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2011-12-07, 10:12 | Link #26098 | |
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I think there's a high chance that Ryuukishi used Maria's jawbone either as a possible plot element he could use later or as a red herring.
In his previous work dental records were used to forge the identity of a body, it was easy to think the same could happen to Maria. The fact that the only body part that was found among 18 bodies was one that could be used for identification is also extremely convenient. It's hard to think Ryuukishi didn't make any particular thought about it. Maybe he thought he could pull a "Maria comes back" in the end but then abandoned the idea. Considering his "later queen problem" essay I wouldn't put it past him. Quote:
P.S. No, not Eva, a closer relative.
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2011-12-07, 10:22 | Link #26099 |
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As I said, its too late to do anything with it. He probably did just do it to re-affirm that Maria was dead, but in a series that seems to be about finding contradictions it really stands out. Its the only piece of identifiable evidence that gets reported.
As Jan also stated, RK07 placed a lot of crap that went nowhere. Its basically little details that he could use as a backdoor into different possible outcomes. Most of them went nowhere and since he didn't properly close those doors by the end of the series they are just there kinda there, taunting us. e- Jan do you mean her father? I mean she didn't even know him I doubt that she'll get a hold of him after the incident...or is it the priest she mentions in ep7...is she a nun now |
2011-12-07, 10:48 | Link #26100 |
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Jan means Rosa. There's nothing absolute about Rosa's death, and some scenarios exist where she might have the motive and the means to hide Maria and herself. Episode 2 comes to mind for all of this.
But yeah I tend to agree that it was just a thread RK07 elected not to use. EDIT: Apparently Jan did mean Maria's father after all. Sorry, Jan. Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-12-07 at 11:32. |
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