2010-02-12, 00:38 | Link #6061 | ||||||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Red has never been simply about "giving clues", it's always been about "giving clues in an obfuscating manner". It's mentioned that the witch side intentionally words red text in such a way that it can have multiple interpretations; anything else would be making the human side too dependent on the red and not on their own thinking. Because of this, I don't see anything wrong with red text referring to "that body over there that's pretending to be dead" as a "corpse"; after all, that's what the people who originally discovered it thought it was. And besides, after that logic error business and Ep6's final red, I don't think we should be even considering that red text is anywhere near "objective unambigous truth". This is the sort of thing I meant when I said "reactionary". You should have SEEN /jp/ after spoilers for Ep6 started coming out... the sheer amount of venom being thrown around was uncanny, even for a 4chan board. Again, I'm not saying you or anyone on this board thinks like this, but I get the feeling that a lot of the reason animosity is directed at the Shkannon theory is because it breaks the fantasies of a lot of hardcore shippers. People didn't stop to think whether it was true or not. They either blindly accepted it and raged about it, or rejected it and raged about it. Quote:
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And yet. Replaying the first part of Ep2... some things just seem to fit. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be surprised at all if Shkannon turned out to be the 'answer'. Disappointed, but unsurprised. Quote:
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But I haven't played Ep5 so I don't know. Quote:
As for Eva and Eva-Beatrice... I always figured that was supposed to be symbolic of Ange both defeating the spectre of the Rokkenjima Serial Murders and finally laying to rest her hatred for her aunt. But that's just me. Quote:
I headdesk'd. You obviously haven't the least idea how cloning works. I can't believe I'm having a serious discussion about this. This is not The 6th Day here. Quote:
Frankly, I think it's more likely that Kanon and Shannon are Kinzo's children rather than Genji's. In fact, I wouldn't put it past Kinzo to have fathered all of the Fukuin children. Last edited by Tyabann; 2010-02-12 at 00:52. |
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2010-02-12, 01:12 | Link #6062 |
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Join Date: May 2009
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When you think on it, there must be someone among the survivors who is herding them. People like George and Rosa tend to make suggestions or take control of groups of people. Think about the situation in Kinzo's study in ep1: They ought to be safe, right? The killer is, we would presume, not in the study with them. So they have to get them to leave or it's all over.
Someone has to plant the discord letter and convince Natsuhi to kick someone out. We've often fingered Maria for that, but there's not a lot that Maria can do to influence people's actions besides placing letters. There has to be somebody who is actively participating in the survivor conversation and keeping people's thoughts and actions directed in some manner to help the culprit along. Now, who else besides George looks a bit suspicious in this regard? I'd point at Kumasawa and Nanjo, but they rarely actually suggest things of their own accord. A "handler" needs to be very persuasive to make the group act in a fashion the killer can predict and exploit (or at least avoid, so he/she isn't bumping into a well-armed Rosa). EDIT: I should note, for anyone who favors Shannontrice, to reread the beach conversation in ep1. George and Shannon are coaching Maria so hard. Of course, George could be innocently humoring her... or not. |
2010-02-12, 01:33 | Link #6063 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Houston
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2010-02-12, 01:38 | Link #6064 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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2. In EP1, the scene showing Kyrie did not know about Rudolf needing cash right away was right after Krauss exposed Rudolf was getting trouble in a legal sue. In EP4, when they were discussing Kinzo bringing an umbrella to Maria. Contrary to what you think, I thought it was an evidence that Lambda showing the scene of Kyrie talking with rudolf on the roof in EP5 was fake, and by extension, Eva's, Rosa's, Natsuhi's could also be fake. 3. Amakusa was actually Battler (the cross as hint?) and killed Ange was a good troll but not a plot. Actually considering his hair color and cross, a better inference was he was actually sent by the Sumadera family, but from a different faction from Kasumi's (as it had been said in EP4 there were multiple factions in Sumadera arguing how to use Ange's money). 4. If I read EP6 correctly, meta-Beatrice prepared the piece of sis-Beatrice such that Battler could use it after her "death". It was not a rebirth of meta-Beatrice I guessed.
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2010-02-12, 01:48 | Link #6065 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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The game seemed to suggest that all servants coming from the orphanage having "on" as part of their codenames, but not all servants coming from teh orphanage bore the one-winged eagle symbol. In EP5, Genji said Natsuhi specifically ordered Shannon to be on duty for the family meeting, with special bonus and leaves, I doubt other "on" servants would refuse to be on-duty even though they initially were not to be on Rokkenjima during that two days.
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2010-02-12, 02:06 | Link #6066 | |||||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Kinzo has been consistently shown to be impulsive and crazy, if the way the relatives talk about him is any indication. Quote:
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2010-02-12, 02:22 | Link #6068 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: HK, China
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Not a valid counter-argument, I am afraid.
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2010-02-12, 02:45 | Link #6069 |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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He's apparently twenty-three, but his age, like everyone else's, was never verified in red... although I don't think we have any reason to doubt his age. The only people's ages I think we should be doubting are Battler's and Shannon's.
But why did you want to know, in any case? ...? Why not? It's not impossible for her to, say, inform the remaining OWE servants that Genji will be serving Kinzo all his meals from now on, as he's become convinced that everyone else is going to poison him, or something. If everyone on the island who knew the truth worked together, it would be fairly easy to hide Kinzo's fate as long as the OWE servants were led to not suspect anything. And perhaps the ones that did were, for example, pushed down the stairs... |
2010-02-12, 03:05 | Link #6070 | |||
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Look at my sig click on "timeline"
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And I think Renall quite eloquently explained why it is possible that people weren't dead already when Battler met Beatrice. I'm not saying that they were absolutely alive, but you are assuming too much. Quote:
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BTW I think I'm going to compile all the things that the Shkannon theory explains, since Renall's vision is a little limited imho. I think that not only reds should be considered, and the Shaknnon theory was never based on reds in the first place. 1) Kanon's odd reaction the first time he sees Battler (EP1) 2) "Kanon is the "zero" in Kinzo's roulette" 3) Battler never sees Shannon and Kanon at the same time (as long as he has an objective perspective) 4) Kanon's body was never seen by Battler and often disappears 5) "Kanon and Shannon are furniture, they are less than human" 6) "Kanon and Shannon are furniture that come from the same set" (EP4) 7) "If Shannon leaves the island Kanon can't remain" 8) "Either Shannon's love or Kanon's love can be fulfilled, there's no way for both of them to exist" 9) "Kanon, Shannon and Beatrice share the same soul" 10) "Kanon is a hindrance to Shannon, Shannon is a hindrance to Kanon, one of them must die" 11) There are only 17 persons in the island if you include Erika (and by extension this explains why the exact number of people was never stated in EP1-5) 12) Kanon escapes from the sealed room in the guesthouse Of course you are free to think that some of these points are irrelevant or are just mumbo-jumbo, but you can't deny that the Shkannon theory gives to them a proper explanation.
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2010-02-12, 03:56 | Link #6073 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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This scene, to me, at least proves one thing: Even if Kanon isn't Shannon, 'he' probably isn't male. He has absolutely no upper body strength. |
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2010-02-12, 04:02 | Link #6074 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Well if he was 19 it would make sense for him to be the real master of the island. I guess it was the same reasoning some people had for thinking Battler might actually be 19. Or that Jessica might actually be 19.
The age might not really matter all that much in the grand scheme of things though.
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2010-02-12, 04:03 | Link #6075 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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While I was referring more on the fact that he really seemed to know Battler already and he was like "You don't remember me?" or possibly "You don't recognize me?"
I remember I was not the only one who had this impression. But yeah Kanon being such a weakling matches with the idea that he's got a female body, 'though it's no such a thing that can't be simply explained with a "Kanon's growth is running late".
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2010-02-12, 04:08 | Link #6076 | |
Junior Member
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Battler certainly saw and recognized both Gohda and Kumasawa hanging by their necks. The only way out of this would be if they were somehow playing dead. There are no fake corpses, sure something could have been called a corpse, but its kinda stupid to assume that there were two fertilizer bags hanging by ''their heads'' and Battler just mistook them at sight. As for the corpses, if we assume, like Renall did say (and i didnt deny the possibility of his answer even in my post) that only George were dead when Battler met Beatrice and everyone else was playing dead as a part of a gigantic conspiracy, Kyrie still guesses how every one of the corpses would look like, how they were hit and died, and where all of the bodies would be found. The culprit would have to kill at least seven people on the spam of time that Battler went to the chapel and got back, arranged their bodies, smashed their faces and made Maria drink poison. (If these people were dead to begin with, the culprit would have just to make Maria drink the poison. Kumasawa and Gohda would NEED to be alive at this point, as well as Jessica, Kyrie and all of the Kyrie group) After that its a must that the next victim would have to be Kanon (or Shkanon), who wouldnt be able to use the gun + well suicide trick. After all, the last person to commit suicide would have to be the one to dispose of the murder weapon while doing that somehow. The theory of Maria being the one to hide the guns and then commiting suicide is denied if we follow through this reasoning. Im not the one assuming too much, im just looking at possibilities and probabilities. Talking in the off chance that everyone is making shit up to fool Battler and this much people were alive at this point of time, EP4 would imply that or almost everyone in the island are wolves or that the culprit has a fucking HUGE trumph card that would not only forbid anyone from taking any action in a huge gap of time but would be able to assure with certainty that everyone would die just following the plan. Anyway, as for Kanon's identity claim lets rest that argument for a while as it isnt bearing any fruits and none of us have something more to add to this than ''its impossible'' versus ''There must be a way''. |
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2010-02-12, 04:28 | Link #6077 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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To be frank, I prefer "Kanon is Shannon's twin sister" to "Kanon is Shannon", but that's just my admittedly odd taste. Well, this could be explained if she was the one planning it all out in the first place. |
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2010-02-12, 04:41 | Link #6078 |
Mystery buff
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Gone Fishin!
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Alternatively you can explain away those phone calls as not being from the person Battler thinks is talking to, and that "faker kun X" knows how they died. But for that to work somebody on the island has to be a very impressive voice actor. You would almost have to have fake callers though because there are one or two times when Kinzo is on the phone with demands I think. Or was that always Krauss? Anyway when Kinzo is on the phone you could argue that Battler hasn't heard his voice in 6 years so how could he tell the difference?
Another thing Jessica says at one point (when asked about if Kinzo would come to dinner) That "if it was 6 years ago it would've been different" or something like that. So maybe she hasn't had a family dinner with Kinzo in 6 years?
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