[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Tsuki Aoi Usagi]

Originally Posted by musouka

Personally, I think people are asking the wrong question about Beato in regards to EP6, as always. One of the most interesting lines regarding her was Ange's musing about why Beato was created. Namely that creating someone to "love" for you is like creating someone to eat for you. Loving and eating are things that can only be done uniquely by the person in question.

I think this EP is once again people having stopped thinking because they think the answer has been given...

So...are you saying Beato's actual 'existance' was made/created by Battler himself?

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

So...are you saying Beato's actual 'existance' was made/created by Battler himself?

Feather said that Battler only placed "a piece with the role of being devoted to him" on the board. The actual piece that filled that role already existed and was created by the original Beatrice.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Tsuki Aoi Usagi

But..."Shannon" loves George now. What is the point of her killing off everyone if she is already happy?

My money is bet on that Maria might be the girl. I don't know exactly how old Maria is...but she has to be at least 10-12 right now. And the sin occured 6 years ago, right? That'd make her about 4-6. She could've easily gain a big crush on Battler, Battler could've made the promise to her, and she could've been heart broken/scarred/deeply hurt. If you add that and the abuse she went through by Rosa...I'd say it gives her some good deal of motive and reason for revenge. Possibly gaining a bipolar or multiple personality disorder in the process.

Think about it though. She isn't that different considering she has her moe and troll moments, just like Maria. Plus, Beato was cruel at first, kind of like Maria is sometimes.

But I'm probably way off. xD;

Edit: Apparahently Maria is nine years old...thus making her three/four when the battler's sin occured. But I still think it's plausible.

But why would Battler talk to a 3 year old about the type of girl he likes That really doesn't make much sense, since little kids definietly don't understand love just yet. And if she was 3 I'm sure she would have been around Rosa more often than not, due to her young age. Shannon back then was 10, Battler and Jessica were 12 and George was 16-17. I don't think such older kids would hang out with such little girls, even if they are cousins. Explains why the cousins seem to forget about Ange's existence at times - she was so young, Maria seems to be the only one who really talked with her.

You can say Jessica, but its very unlikely that he would refer to Jessica in the third person if he was talking to her directly. Kanon wasn't around back then, so that's impossible and I doubt it was George either. The most likely choice is Shannon.

[TDS]

Who's to say that the person who loves Battler was the one he committed the sin against? Personally, I don't think it was....

[yuugi99]

Originally Posted by Marion

But why would Battler talk to a 3 year old about the type of girl he likes That really doesn't make much sense, since little kids definietly don't understand love just yet. And if she was 3 I'm sure she would have been around Rosa more often than not, due to her young age. Shannon back then was 10, Battler and Jessica were 12 and George was 16-17. I don't think such older kids would hang out with such little girls, even if they are cousins. Explains why the cousins seem to forget about Ange's existence at times - she was so young, Maria seems to be the only one who really talked with her.

You can say Jessica, but its very unlikely that he would refer to Jessica in the third person if he was talking to her directly. Kanon wasn't around back then, so that's impossible and I doubt it was George either. The most likely choice is Shannon.

Very unlikely but its still plausible. After all Battler has changed during these 6 yrs. and besides if he refers 'omae' instead of 'Jessica', ryukishi would make it obvious that the person he is talking to is Jessica and I believe ryukishi will only reveal the person in Ep7

[Marion]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

Very unlikely but its still plausible. After all Battler has changed during these 6 yrs. and besides if he refers 'omae' instead of 'Jessica', ryukishi would make it obvious that the person he is talking to is Jessica and I believe ryukishi will only reveal the person in Ep7

But why would talk about Jessica, referring to her in the third person, while talking to Jessica herself?

I still think it's Shannon. This, coupled with the fact that the sin is most likely a broken promise, makes her the most likely.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

Unfortunately, it was not crystal-clear to me that this scene was from 1980 rather than 1986 Rokkenjima.

6 years ago, Battler was still having his liking of Shannon, how come if someone asked what kind of woman he like he would not say Shannon right away?

To me, that scene was asked by real Beatrice on Rokkenjima in 1986 to Battler.

Then, since the real Beatrice embodied a large part of meta-Beatrice, she told the newly born moeBeatrice to love Battler since she herself was unable to love him.

The "mother" of moeBeatrice was of course original meta-Beatrice. However, the whole moeBeatrice, trollBeatrice, meta-Beatrice and Battler was actually an analogy to the relationship between 1967 Beatrice, legend-Beatrice, 1952 Beatrice and Kinzo if you read between the lines.

If you replace Battler with Kinzo, moeBeatrice with 1967 Beatrice, meta-Beatrice with 1952 Beatrice. Then everything makes sense and it gave you the backstory of Kinzo and Beatrice.

Imho you got it all wrong. Beatrice came into existence long before Battler returned to Rokkenjima. What about all the proofs we have that Beatrice prepared the game since quite some times, or the facts she's been playing with Maria since at least the last two years?
Your proposal doesn't make sense to me. You have seen an huge hint and you just passed over it without thinking. That flashback is the very reason Beatrice was born, and she had to have born before 1986, which means that scene could only have happened in 1980 or before.

Furthermore "Big sister Beatrice" is the personification of the "legend of the witch" while the "younger sister Beatrice" is the personification of the feeling of love that the original persona had for Battler. By mixing up that young sister Beatrice whose only purpose is to be the one to love Battler and the witch of the legend you get the Beato we all know. That's how it works for me.

Originally Posted by Used Can

That's true, but has Shannon ever shown any interest in Battler? I think even Jessica and Maria have shown more interest in him than her.

You need to be attentive to subtle hints.

First off back in the first episodes Shannon is the one who more clearly remembers Battler, which is often used as a canonical hint of "love interest" in japanese romantic stories.

Then in EP6 you get that scene where George says that he finds himself being Jealous seeing Shannon and Battler together.

Originally Posted by Used Can

Not to mention R07 said he hasn't included settings like George and Shannon not loving each other. So, unless she's a slut who plans on dumping George if Battler remembers his sin, I really don't see how Shannon can be Beatrice, since Beato loves Battler.

You are stuck with very few options, Maria doesn't even remember Battler, all the other girls are taken, Beatrice as a person was denied. You have no choice. One of the girls isn't quite sure about whom to love.

EDIT: Oh wait actually Rosa is technically free... almost... she's got a boyfriend apparently which is also apparently married...

Anyway the whole "love test" was so explicit I can't even think it is all right to call it a metaphor. Hint: Kyrie (who certainly isn't stupid) got the situation perfectly at the first try.

Originally Posted by yuugi99

Very unlikely but its still plausible. After all Battler has changed during these 6 yrs. and besides if he refers 'omae' instead of 'Jessica', ryukishi would make it obvious that the person he is talking to is Jessica and I believe ryukishi will only reveal the person in Ep7

Extremely unlikely I'd rather say.

[yuugi99]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Imho you got it all wrong. Beatrice came into existence long before Battler returned to Rokkenjima. What about all the proofs we have that Beatrice prepared the game since quite some times, or the facts she's been playing with Maria since at least the last two years?
Your proposal doesn't make sense to me. You have seen an huge hint and you just passed over it without thinking. That flashback is the very reason Beatrice was born, and she had to have born before 1986, which means that scene could only have happened in 1980 or before.

Furthermore "Big sister Beatrice" is the personification of the "legend of the witch" while the "younger sister Beatrice" is the personification of the feeling of love that the original persona had for Battler. By mixing up that young sister Beatrice whose only purpose is to be the one to love Battler and the witch of the legend you get the Beato we all know. That's how it works for me.




You need to be attentive to subtle hints.

First off back in the first episodes Shannon is the one who more clearly remembers Battler, which is often used as a canonical hint of "love interest" in japanese romantic stories.

Then in EP6 you get that scene where George says that he finds himself being Jealous seeing Shannon and Battler together.



You are stuck with very few options, Maria doesn't even remember Battler, all the other girls are taken, Beatrice as a person was denied. You have no choice. One of the girls isn't quite sure about whom to love.

EDIT: Oh wait actually Rosa is technically free... almost... she's got a boyfriend apparently which is also apparently married...

Anyway the whole "love test" was so explicit I can't even think it is all right to call it a metaphor. Hint: Kyrie (who certainly isn't stupid) got the situation perfectly at the first try.



Extremely unlikely I'd rather say.

Extremely unlike but the probability is not zero. This might be where the miracle (or rather Bern) comes in to make it likely in Ep 7. LOL

[Marion]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

Extremely unlike but the probability is not zero. This might be where the miracle (or rather Bern) comes in to make it likely in Ep 7. LOL

Except Jessica clearly loves Kanon, considering how much she gushes about him constantly (almost to the peak of my annoyance tbh) and again Maria was only 3 and didn't even remember Battler because she was so young back then.

[yuugi99]

Originally Posted by Marion

Except Jessica clearly loves Kanon, considering how much she gushes about him constantly (almost to the peak of my annoyance tbh) and again Maria was only 3 and didn't even remember Battler because she was so young back then.

the same goes with Shannon..........

[Kaiba]

Originally Posted by yuugi99

the same goes with Shannon..........

Er, no.
Much of the George/Shannon romance is 1. shown when Battler isn't around or 2. heavily implied by Jessica, whom I would argue has a heavy interest in hooking up a good friend of hers, to the degree that I would argue that it's a subconscious way to compensate for her lack of a boyfriend. Aside from that, it's very different from Jessica, whom clearly gives a shit over Kanon.
I would say one thing however here: I have no doubt whatsoever that George has feelings for Shannon, especially based on what I've heard about 6. I do have significant doubts about the other end.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Imho you got it all wrong. Beatrice came into existence long before Battler returned to Rokkenjima. What about all the proofs we have that Beatrice prepared the game since quite some times, or the facts she's been playing with Maria since at least the last two years?
Your proposal doesn't make sense to me. You have seen an huge hint and you just passed over it without thinking. That flashback is the very reason Beatrice was born, and she had to have born before 1986, which means that scene could only have happened in 1980 or before.

Furthermore "Big sister Beatrice" is the personification of the "legend of the witch" while the "younger sister Beatrice" is the personification of the feeling of love that the original persona had for Battler. By mixing up that young sister Beatrice whose only purpose is to be the one to love Battler and the witch of the legend you get the Beato we all know. That's how it works for me.

"Big sister Beatrice" is not just a personification of the legend. She was referring to a real person who had been making all the pranks and tricks throughout these years on Rokkenjima. She was a real person aware of the origin of Rokkenjima and magic stuff. (There has to be a real person making all those tricks on Rokkenjima so that the EXTRA TIPS "Gohda's notes" could be explained.) She was also the real person giving the brooch to Shannon one or two years before 1986.

This "Big sister Beatrice" did not know "moeBeatrice" initially, but latter she knew that moeBeatrice was actually her younger sister. Latter, this moeBeatrice died and her spirit combined with "Big sister Beatrice" such that the real Beatrice (the one who taught Maria's magic, staged the murders) was created (spirit of moeBeatrice and body of "Big sister Beatrice").

You have read the line "Today you are no longer only a ghost on Rokkenjima" from the whole "to Beatrice" passage, haven't you? This is obviously a line from "MoeBeatrice" to "Big sister Beatrice" as only Big sister Beatrice was acting as a ghost on Rokkenjima. MoeBeatrice hope that "Big sister Beatrice" would love Battler. IMO, it meant that 1967 Beatrice asked "the Beatrice who made all the pranks on Rokkenjima" for "loving Kinzo", thus creating the real Beatrice a few years ago. Here, though, the dialogue of Battler saying he loved woman with big breast and blonde hair switched to 1986 and it was a dialogue between real Beatrice and Battler. Then it switched again to moeBeatrice talking to "Big sister Beatrice" on the Meta-level, but was telling the tale of what happened BEFORE 1986.

---------------------------

These scenes were ambiguous on purpose such that readers will come up with different understanding according to their initial thoughts, so let's stickto our own opinions until EP7 has come out. Right now, I have no use to argue with you nor arguing with me. Just that don't force our own opinion on people who had not read the episode yet, let them come up with their own understanding first.

Though since I say the one Battler was talking to was real Beatrice, if you buy Shannon=Beatrice, then Battler was talking to Shannon in that scene.

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Er, no.
Much of the George/Shannon romance is 1. shown when Battler isn't around or 2. heavily implied by Jessica, whom I would argue has a heavy interest in hooking up a good friend of hers, to the degree that I would argue that it's a subconscious way to compensate for her lack of a boyfriend. Aside from that, it's very different from Jessica, whom clearly gives a shit over Kanon.
I would say one thing however here: I have no doubt whatsoever that George has feelings for Shannon, especially based on what I've heard about 6. I do have significant doubts about the other end.

I suppose Ryukishi07 guaranteed the love between George and Shannon was genuine in one of his interviews. Their tarot card is also "The lovers". And even if we were shown fantasy scene, Dlanor told us that pieces could not do things too much contrary to their own nature. So I can conclude that George and Sayo's love were true and mutual.

So was Jessica and Yoshiya's love.

[yuugi99]

Originally Posted by Kaiba

Er, no.
Much of the George/Shannon romance is 1. shown when Battler isn't around or 2. heavily implied by Jessica, whom I would argue has a heavy interest in hooking up a good friend of hers, to the degree that I would argue that it's a subconscious way to compensate for her lack of a boyfriend. Aside from that, it's very different from Jessica, whom clearly gives a shit over Kanon.
I would say one thing however here: I have no doubt whatsoever that George has feelings for Shannon, especially based on what I've heard about 6. I do have significant doubts about the other end.

I could have said the said the same thing about Jessica. The confession in 6, their scenes in 2 where Kanon strived to protect Jessica also happened when Battler was not around. Coupled with the fact in 6, that George and Shannon were the one who won the contest of love (or whatever you called that) clearly showed that their love are more genuine compared to Jessica and Kanon.

And besides the real ‘Kanon’ might have not even existed in the game board due to the real numbers of people on the island which made it even more suspicious.

[Tyabann]

Frankly, the way the young lovers are written, I think that BOTH relationships are fake.

They're too... perfect.

[Marion]

Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon

Frankly, the way the young lovers are written, I think that BOTH relationships are fake.

They're too... perfect.

Not really. EP 6 proved they're not perfect at all.

Kanon has an obvious inferiority complex (calling himself furniture and what not)
Jessica seems to have a generally more younger view on love (I mean does teen love really have such a high percentage of lasting?) and unlike Kanon, doesn't really seem to see the issues that will arise with their relationship (at least she never said anything about it)
George is clearly possessive of Shannon, getting jealous of Battler even being around her, and doesn't want anyone standing in the way of his relationship with her.
Shannon is also very adamant about magic being the reason for her relationship and seems to think that being a wife is the top priority of her life (EP 3 she pretty much says that her life is complete because she got married)

[BanditKing]

Originally Posted by ijriims

These scenes were ambiguous on purpose such that readers will come up with different understanding according to their initial thoughts, so let's stickto our own opinions until EP7 has come out. Right now, I have no use to argue with you nor arguing with me. Just that don't force our own opinion on people who had not read the episode yet, let them come up with their own understanding first.

I find the scene very good for some reason and i agree with you that it give different reader different thoughts and i just want to let my thoughts down.

The description of ep.6 in the main menu say there won't be a hint but a confession and before beato disappear she was asking "okaa-sama" why she was create.So i believe that whole part is a confession in why Beatrice was create.The person also make the pranks on rokkenjima.Of course the person doesn't have to be shannon but probably a person who can no longer love battler so she pass on her love of him to beatice which also explain why the person who love battler before doesn't show any now cause she push all her love for him onto beatice.

Of course thats how I understand that part but what you say is also interesting is that that scene is between "Big sister Beatrice" and "moeBeatrice" i didn't think beatrice revive because they combine but what kanon say to moebeatice and she revived herself cause she understand everything.Of course that could be Ryukishi07 trolling who know what the man is thinking.

Having just finish ep.6 I have say my most 2 favorite scene is when battler's illusion and beato was about to disappear.The music fit it so well that it leave on the verge of tears.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

"younger sister Beatrice" is the personification of the feeling of love that the original persona had for Battler.

I think she's also the personification of the pre-Beatrice legends in Rokkenjima. Remember how the western magical artefacts had an effect on Big-Sister Beatrice, but not on Moetrice, yet Natsuhi's mirror had an effect on her.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You need to be attentive to subtle hints.

First off back in the first episodes Shannon is the one who more clearly remembers Battler, which is often used as a canonical hint of "love interest" in japanese romantic stories.

Then in EP6 you get that scene where George says that he finds himself being Jealous seeing Shannon and Battler together.

I know she remembers him, but that's basically all there is to it. Other than that, Shannon barely pays him any attention.

Jessica would be a possible candidate would it not be for the flashback in EP6, which in my opinion completely brushes her off. She's always shown receiving a phone-call from Battler at the beginning (i.e. before they all land in Rokkenjima), meaning she knows he'll be there. And, unlike Shannon, she does pay him some attention, even if they're just having fun. Not to mention Jessica mentioned the whole deal about creating a different self, in EP2.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

You are stuck with very few options, Maria doesn't even remember Battler, all the other girls are taken, Beatrice as a person was denied. You have no choice. One of the girls isn't quite sure about whom to love.

EDIT: Oh wait actually Rosa is technically free... almost... she's got a boyfriend apparently which is also apparently married...

Anyway the whole "love test" was so explicit I can't even think it is all right to call it a metaphor. Hint: Kyrie (who certainly isn't stupid) got the situation perfectly at the first try.

This is my point. The other possible girls - i.e. Jessica and Shannon - are taken. So, unless one of their relationships is false (and R07 said he didn't add things like this, not to mention Erika showed that was a wrong way to do things - maybe), I don't see how either of them can be Beatrice, unless they have multiple personalities, and they're not aware of the Beatrice personality, which is not possible since Beatrice was created by whoever loves Battler.

[Marion]

Jessica would be a possible candidate would it not be for the flashback in EP6, which in my opinion completely brushes her off. She's always shown receiving a phone-call from Battler at the beginning (i.e. before they all land in Rokkenjima), meaning she knows he'll be there. And, unlike Shannon, she does pay him some attention, even if they're just having fun. Not to mention Jessica mentioned the whole deal about creating a different self, in EP2.

Jessica got the phone call in 1986, presumably a few days before the conference. I think by that point everyone would have known in the house. And the 'other' part mentioned is 'Jessie' which she uses at school, not a 'Beatrice'.

As for the entire 'Shannon doesn't love Battler' debate, I agree. She did love him, but not anymore. In the monologue the girl says that she created Beatrice to love Battler because she could not. The girl poured all her feelings into an imaginary being Beatrice and finally moved on from Battler. If it's Shannon then she moved onto George and fell in love with him.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by ijriims

These scenes were ambiguous on purpose such that readers will come up with different understanding according to their initial thoughts, so let's stickto our own opinions until EP7 has come out. Right now, I have no use to argue with you nor arguing with me. Just that don't force our own opinion on people who had not read the episode yet, let them come up with their own understanding first.

Dude "imho" stands for "in my humble opinion", I don't know how any statement that starts with "imho" qualifies as forcing your opinion into others. And If I can't even tell you that my opinion differs from your then what's the purpose of this forum?

Originally Posted by Used Can

I think she's also the personification of the pre-Beatrice legends in Rokkenjima. Remember how the western magical artefacts had an effect on Big-Sister Beatrice, but not on Moetrice, yet Natsuhi's mirror had an effect on her.

That makes no sense... after all it was made clear that the "allergy" to spiderweb is something that comes from japanese folklore and not from the western one. And only big sis Beatrice is affected by them.

Originally Posted by Used Can

This is my point. The other possible girls - i.e. Jessica and Shannon - are taken. So, unless one of their relationships is false (and R07 said he didn't add things like this, not to mention Erika showed that was a wrong way to do things - maybe), I don't see how either of them can be Beatrice, unless they have multiple personalities, and they're not aware of the Beatrice personality, which is not possible since Beatrice was created by whoever loves Battler.

My point is you cannot escape from the concept of "triangle". If you say that beatrice can't be any girl that is taken already you are shutting yourself into a logic error, because all the girls are taken.

Imho the concept of triangle (or rather quadrangle) has been made quite clear in EP6. The fact that Shannon loves George doesn't cancel out the possibility that she also loves Battler or that she loved him in the past.

I think that EP6 finally gave an answer to the concept of "furniture" and why Shannon and Kanon face that furniture problem. The whole story of the love test revolves around a question "why they need fight? why the miracle of love can only work for one among Kanon, Shannon, Beatrice?". Obviously the answer is not that there are two demons that want to have a funny test.
This battle is not presented as something evil (in which case you would think there might be a better solution in the end), but as something necessary recognized by Jessica and George themselves.

Shannon represents the love for George
Kanon represents the love for Jessica
Beatrice represents the love for Battler

However they are all furniture, they are less than humans. They are three but there is a single soul, so two of them must be defeated and only one should rest.
Imho the whole love test was a metaphorical representation of an internal struggle to chose the one to love.

In that regard there is absolutely nothing wrong with the fact that Shannon has always been seen loving George. Because the Shannon we see is a "furniture" that represents the love of George. The other part, the one that loves Battler, is represented by Beatrice.

However I must revise my previous theory about Shannon really not loving George. The fact that in EP6 in the end the one who wins is Shannon, most probably means that in the end the choice was made in George's favor.

[ijriims]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Dude "imho" stands for "in my humble opinion", I don't know how any statement that starts with "imho" qualifies as forcing your opinion into others. And If I can't even tell you that my opinion differs from your then what's the purpose of this forum?

Dude, I was referring to your previous post (id=2873175) where you said EP6 giving us "crystal-clear" hints about what happened.

I understand you have formed your understanding of that scenes, but that scene definitely was not clear at all (readers have to speculate who Battler was really talking to. Who is the "mother"? Who is talking to Beatrice, and which Beatrice? Is it really 6 years ago?). Those who have not read the episode would regard your understanding as official answer since you said it was "crystal-clear".

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Shannon represents the love for George
Kanon represents the love for Jessica
Beatrice represents the love for Battler

However they are all furniture, they are less than humans. They are three but there is a single soul, so two of them must be defeated and only one should rest.
Imho the whole love test was a metaphorical representation of an internal struggle to chose the one to love.

Somehow I smelled Shkatrice theory here, when you say it is an "internal struggle". So you are buying it?