Madoka Magica - General Discussion

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Then what is your counter to that very same reasoning, if you don't agree with it yourself?

What is your counter to "You don't go from killing someone for two days and then befriending them the next."?

I don't think that you've effectively dealt with this very basic truism at all. Plot progression that goes against this very basic truism is at the very least odd.

My counter is you fail to consider Kyoko may have wanted to be Sayaka's friend after their first meeting. Kyoko fights Sayaka because she wanted more Grief Seeds, not because Kyoko had previously planned on killing Sayaka.

The first battle, Kyoko seemed mad at Sayaka for getting in the way. Afterward, Kyoko was the one who taunted Sayaka into another battle - they had a hostile yet controlled discussion. It is Kyoko who sought out Sayaka. If Kyoko really hated Sayaka, she would have transformed and murdered her on the spot. The second battle, Kyoko looked like she wanted to fight Sayaka for enjoyment; she was smiling. After the Soul Gem revelation, Kyoko realized that fighting was counter-productive, and actually tried making friends with Sayaka.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, but in Kyoko's case, it shows an understanding of normal human social relations (i.e. such as romance). Kyoko needs to have that understanding in order to even think of the threat that she came up with.

There is no evidence to suggest that Kyoko can function in typical society. She lives alone, eats stolen food, and lets people die for her own sake. I am saying Kyoko knows about society, but is an outcast. The way she survives - stealing, threats, and violence.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What type of emotion causes a person to threaten to horribly dismember the love of another person's life?

Call it something other than "hatred" if you will (I myself offered up "contempt" as an alternative), but it's an awfully strong emotion, whatever it is.

Self-interest. Kyoko stated she was only doing what was in her best interests - if threats can avoid fighting, then Kyoko will use them. Less trouble for her.

Originally Posted by Mentar

No character "change". Rather shows that Homura is under alot of pressure and prone to crack.

The reviewer has a problem with Homura being cool for 7 full episodes, then cracking simply because Madoka nearly made the contract (which Madoka has done before). Take the battle between Kyoko and Sayaka - Homura calmly walked in, broke up the fight, and prevented Madoka from contracting. All without collapsing in tears. The reviewer doesn't buy that Homura would cry over another Kyubey encounter, since that is what Homura came here to stop.

[roriconfan]

I know you are going to hate me (more) for writting this...

IF every witch was once a girl and IF there are so MANY magical gilrs in so MANY cities defeating so MANY witches, each one having killed SEVERAL people...

Shouldn't the tv or the school or the parents noticed that and done SOMETHING ?

...Yeah I know, it doesn't matter how many people died or if the people besides the 5 girls matter or if nothing makes sense because it's all just fiction. They make wishes come true and shotguns appear out of their skirts and aliens defeat entropy with energy harvested by psycho lolis so ok.

And seriously, being out of character while crying or going amok counts as character development?

You are going to hate me (more) XD

[Seihai]

Well, your "if"-scenario fails because the primary way for witches to come into existance is to arise from familiars, not Magical Girls. And the general idea is that there's less than a handful MGs per territory, however big that territory that is.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

I know you are going to hate me (more) for writting this...

IF every witch was once a girl and IF there are so MANY magical gilrs in so MANY cities defeating so MANY witches, each one having killed SEVERAL people...

Shouldn't the tv or the school or the parents noticed that and done SOMETHING ?

Witches' victims die of suicides and accidents. That happens all the time all around the world. Plus, the witches are invisible to normal people unless they get caught in the witches' mazes, and if that happens they just don't get out alive.

So no, it's impossible to notice the existence of witches unless you're a magical girl.

BTW, you really aren't watching the series, are you??

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Deconstructor

My counter is you fail to consider Kyoko may have wanted to be Sayaka's friend after their first meeting.

There's no "failure" in choosing to not consider an absolutely absurd idea like the one that you're proposing here.

Kyoko wants to be Sayaka's "friend" so she threatens Sayaka with the lovely mental image of Kamijo being totally dismembered.

Kyoko's not some dumb, barely sentient animal, as you seem to be stretching your argument towards here. The girl at least knew how to show some modicum of genuine friendliness to another person (i.e. offering pocky to Homura during their conversation after Kyoko played DDR, IIRC).

Kyoko fights Sayaka because she wanted more Grief Seeds, not because Kyoko had previously planned on killing Sayaka.

Kyoko openly stated an intention to kill Sayaka. She clearly had that intent, *and* came close to achieving it, otherwise Homura would not have needed to make a last minute save.

The first battle, Kyoko seemed mad at Sayaka for getting in the way. Afterward, Kyoko was the one who taunted Sayaka into another battle - they had a hostile yet controlled discussion. It is Kyoko who sought out Sayaka. If Kyoko really hated Sayaka, she would have transformed and murdered her on the spot.

You've honestly never read or watched a cold revenge plot play out where one character hates another character and hence tries to put that character through a living hell, as opposed to a quick death?

A quick assassination is merciful compared to some courses of action. So to say that "Character A didn't go for a quick assassination of Character B so Character A must not hate Character B" is a totally invalid argument.

The second battle, Kyoko looked like she wanted to fight Sayaka for enjoyment; she was smiling.

Doing something for enjoyment, and doing something out of hatred, are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think the popular phrase "Love to Hate" exists?

There is no evidence to suggest that Kyoko can function in typical society.

When it comes to work/school, you could be right. However, Kyoko displayed plenty capacity for normal social interactions in how she talked with Homura in Episode 7, before the soul gem revelation, and before she threatened Sayaka the way that she did.

Self-interest. Kyoko stated she was only doing what was in her best interests - if threats can avoid fighting, then Kyoko will use them.

Yes, because the perfect way to avoid fighting is to threaten a courageous girl's object of complete infatuation. You have a girl who's already shown a willingness to engage you in mortal combat, and you try to get her to not fight you by threatening the boy that she has consistently put ahead of herself.

I'd honestly rather think that Kyoko is a complete psychopath than to think that she's this stupid.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's not much the number of episodes that counts but rather the pacing. You could have atrociously paced series whether they are 12-13, 24-26, or over 30 episodes. Angel Beats, Nanoha StrikerS and Blood+ are three series of those mentioned formats that suffered greatly from poor pacing. I think that the writer AND the director contribute greatly to the quality of a series, as far as the pacing goes, the writer to give a direction to the plot and the characters and make it run smooth, the director for the best use of scenes and cinematography.

About Madoka, Shinbo and Urobochi, I personally think that they have been doing a good job, and managed to make what some people gripe about more forgivable than what we have seen in other series like those I named.

Agreed. I'm pretty sure Madoka Magica is already close if not already to "legendary" status. It's like arguing with an Asian parent whether or not 92.97% constitutes an A.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There's no "failure" in choosing to not consider an absolutely absurd idea like the one that you're proposing here.

Kyoko wants to be Sayaka's "friend" so she threatens Sayaka with the lovely mental image of Kamijo being totally dismembered.

Kyoko's not some dumb, barely sentient animal, as you seem to be stretching your argument towards here. The girl at least knew how to show some modicum of genuine friendliness to another person (i.e. offering pocky to Homura during their conversation after Kyoko played DDR, IIRC).

I have no clue why you would associate stupidity with Kyoko. She lives doing the most efficient thing possible. In the case you recite, Kyoko wanted to dissuade Sayaka from fighting by issuing a grave threat. I am suggesting that Kyoko prefers to use violence over discussion, but that does not make Kyoko a dumb animal. It would be dangerous for Kyoko to make an enemy out of Homura, so communicates in another way. Even then, Kyoko is not particularly social, talking while playing Dance Dance Revolution in an arcade...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Kyoko openly stated an intention to kill Sayaka. She clearly had that intent, *and* came close to achieving it, otherwise Homura would not have needed to make a last minute save.

Sayaka was the one who decided to fight Kyoko, rather than stay out of Kyoko's way. Kyoko's threat was either leave or see Kyosuke torn to pieces; Sayaka decided to fight. Of course, Kyoko is going to fight back until Sayaka gives up. After Kyoko beat Sayaka to the ground, Kyoko was about to leave to chase the familiar. Unfortunately, Sayaka taunted Kyoko, nearly leading to Sayaka's death.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

You've honestly never read or watched a cold revenge plot play out where one character hates another character and hence tries to put that character through a living hell, as opposed to a quick death?

A quick assassination is merciful compared to some courses of action. So to say that "Character A didn't go for a quick assassination of Character B so Character A must not hate Character B" is a totally invalid argument.

It is not just the fact that Kyoko did not kill Sayaka on the roof. They had a discussion and their ideals clashed. But if they really hated each other, they would have transformed on the spot and fought. The fact that they could communicate on a personal level suggests that they were becoming less hostile towards each other.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Doing something for enjoyment, and doing something out of hatred, are not mutually exclusive. Why do you think the popular phrase "Love to Hate" exists?

I think Kyoko loves fighting, regardless of whether she hates the enemy or not.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Yes, because the perfect way to avoid fighting is to threaten a courageous girl's object of complete infatuation. You have a girl who's already shown a willingness to engage you in mortal combat, and you try to get her to not fight you by threatening the boy that she has consistently put ahead of herself.

It usually works. Kyoko was trying to scare Sayaka by putting pictures of a dismembered Kyosuke in her mind. Please note that Kyoko asked for Sayaka to leave the familiar alone. When Sayaka refused, the threat came in.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I'd honestly rather think that Kyoko is a complete psychopath than to think that she's this stupid.

Don't lower my argument to either of those descriptions.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by taofd

I'm pretty sure Madoka Magica is already close if not already to "legendary" status.

In some statistical measures, Madoka Magica is already "legendary":

1) It is now the all time leader in number of 2ch threads for a 1-season anime (590+ and counting vs ~460 by the first Haruhi season; however, the total number of Haruhi threads is higher)

2) The current record for first week sales in anime BD in Japan is held by the last volume (vol #6) of Bakemonogatari (~51000). Current estimated reservations of volume #1 of Madoka Magica (due 03/30/2011) have already topped that number (60000+). With 95% confidence, current reservations of vol 1 is at least ~58000, with an average estimate of ~63000.

Info source:

Spoiler for NSFW sites not far from the links:

http://blog.livedoor.jp/insidears/ar.../52351423.html
http://desktop2ch.net/anime/1299525934/

[roriconfan]

Legendary one-time status that is. There is very little replay value in a show which consists mostly of mystery and shock value.

FMAB and LOGH still have the best long-series pacing overall and stories complicating enough to deserve a second run.

[Reckoner]

Personally i think this show has great replay value, even if people watched it simply because of the reasons you listed (Which IMO, is not the only reason people watch MAdoka). That's because viewers who like it will want to go back and try to catch the little details.

Just alone in this season, there have been many people rewatching the episodes to catch every little thing to back up their arguments.

[MaiNoKen]

As a fan of both LOGH (I watched the whole 100+ episodes :P) and Madoka, I think it is wrong to compare LOGH with Madoka directly as they are of different genre - it is like comparing Romance of Three Kingdoms with Alfred Hitchcock.

As far as overall quality, they are both very good and highly re-watchable (and each series have their own share of problems as well). So let us all be happy, and enjoy what we prefer to enjoy.

Anyway, as a Homura fan myself... Let's just hope Homura don't end up like Yang Wen-Li (minor spoilers)

[roriconfan]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Just alone in this season, there have been many people rewatching the episodes to catch every little thing to back up their arguments.

Not me; I didn't bother to watch it not even once for my arguements
... Kidding; of course I did. I just focused on what is going on and not with all that mambo jumbo psedoscientific wishing stuff.

I can tell you this. If the show ends like Mai-Hime, people will hate it and the perm score will drop to 6.

On the other hand, I wonder what else is there for the show to ... show in the next 3 episodes. Homura will try to fight the witch, Madoka will turn to magical girl to save her, she will wish something weird and the end.

...Ok I am not saying this will happen. Just saying what should not because it would be too expected for a show that throws in aliens and entropy. My guess is that the entire world is Madoka's maze and Homura entered her Matrix in order to save her from destroying the real world. Kinda like the story of Persona 2 if anyone remembers.

And now that I think about it (oh no, here comes the hate) what was Homura's wish? To be able to time travel or time freeze? She can't have wished for both. And if she is from the future, where is her present self?

Oh, here comes that theory again; this world is an immitation of the real world where Madoka repeats her life in a cheerier way. I bet her real life mom is dead or a bitch who hits her. And I bet...

...ok wrong topic to say all that. I just hope it will NOT be what I wrote at first and something closer to what I wrote just now. Because if it is so, then even I will excuse all the mambo jumbo and give the series a good mark. Heck, if it is all a matrix, anything can happen. And the realism part is what alienated me in the first place.

[omimon]

Originally Posted by roriconfan

Legendary one-time status that is. There is very little replay value in a show which consists mostly of mystery and shock value.

FMAB and LOGH still have the best long-series pacing overall and stories complicating enough to deserve a second run.

Do you pay attention to the fandom and the show? Homura has been dropping hint towards who she really is and when the truth is reveal EVERYONE is going to rewatch the series again to spot those hints.

[sa547]

In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.

Spoiler:

I often watch anime, but there are two genres I don't watch.
The first is anime for children.
The second is anime for women.
The title 「Puella Magi Madoka ☆ Magica」reminds me of 「Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha」(hereafter Nanoha). Whether or not Nanoha is an anime aimed at girls, I haven't watched it. Even so, I know the general plot. At first, when I saw the beginning of Madoka Magica, I thought it was a rip-off of Nanoha. There were only a few differences, and the developments unfolded in essentially the same way, and thinking that this would continue I stopped watching it.
In fact, not only anime but dramas, apart from the changing character names and settings they're generally the same product.
However interestingly, even if one realises something is a rip-off, even if one knows what will happen at the end, there are many who can still watch and and find it enjoyable.
If that wasn't so, the VSOP (very special one pattern) as typified by Mito Komon would not have the support of many viewers up to now.
Yes. The outcome that shouldn't be known is known, and as the story plays out along to its foregone conclusion people can watch with a sense of security. There are many people who watch for that sense of security, for the sake of confirmation. I know this by experience.

Like the others, I recommend closer rewatching to get the gist of what's really going on.

[MaiNoKen]

Originally Posted by sa547

In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.

I read the commentary, I will add some translations (feel free to cross post these, and let the other person knows):

Spoiler for Translations:

しかし、3話まで見て、この作品が決して、子ども向けの作品でないことがわかりました。
この作品は、哲学的命題を持って、視聴者に問いかけてきます。

And then, I saw episode 3. I understood clearly not a series aimed at children. This is a series about philosophy.

人は誰のために働くのか。
他人のために働くのか。
自分のために働くのか。
死と向き合うとどうなるのか。

Men work, but for who?
For another person?
For oneself?
And what are we going to do when we all face death?

この作品には、色々な「騙し」があります。まず、この可愛らしい絵ズラに騙されてはなりません。やっている ことは結構グロです。

This work is about deception to the viewers. One think one would not be deceived by the cute pictures, and then it becomes gruesome.

他人のために働く。本当に他人のため？
自分のために働く。本当に自分のためだけ？
善人だと思える人。本当に善人？
悪人のように見える人。本当に悪人？
人は裏切られたときにどうするの？
人に何かを期待するから、裏切られたときに怒り出すの？
何も期待しなければ、裏切られたとして怒らなくて済むの？

Work for another person? Is one really working for another?
Work for oneself? Is one really working for oneself?
You think he/she is good. Is he/she really a good person?
You think he/she is evil. Is he/she really an evil person?
What happens if one is betrayed?
You expect one thing, will you be angry if you are betrayed?
Is it better to expect nothing, and not be betrayed?

よかれと思ってやったことが、結果として自分にとって不利益になる。
よかれと思ってやったことが、結果として相手を不幸にしてしまう。

One thinks one is doing good for oneself, in the end oneself suffers.
One thinks one is doing good for another person, in the end... the other person suffers.

Spoiler for More :P:

善意は決して人のためにも、自分のためにもならない。
でも、そんな利己的に生きているような人であっても、
徹底して利己的にのみ、生きていけるの？

Even with good will, there may be no benefit to oneself nor to others.
But for those who live by self-interest,
They manipulate and take advantage of others, and then they live?

魔法少女という強力な力を持った存在になるためには、何かを犠牲にしないと、そんな力を持つことはできない 。人のために働いているのに、それを人は決して理解してくれない。
魔法少女という、普通の人ではない者に対して、無理難題をいう一般人。
では、そんな無理難題を言う一般人に対して、魔法少女は言う。
「そんなに言うのだったら、あんたがそれをやってみれば。（あなたには、決してできるはずない のに）」

Magical girls is powerful, however, there will be a trade off. Even one works for others, but why doesn't other understand them?
It is impossible for ordinary people to understand magical girls as magical girls are not normal persons.
Then you go ask normal persons about magical girls...
"Why don't you try this I just told you? I am sure you can succeed."

魔法少女の単語を、政治家に置換して読み替えてみると非常に面白い。

Let's try replace "Magical Girl" with "Politician". Intriguing, isn't it?

そう。政治家は既に一般人ではない。一般人とは違うと思うからこそ、一般人は、無理難題を政治家にいう。そ れを政治家は実現しようとする。でも、それができるような政治家とは、実は、一番一般人から遠い人物でなけ れば、そんなことできない。
そして、政治家が一般人から一番遠い存在になったとき、政治家は決まって悪いことを行うように なる。

Correct. Politicians are not normal persons. They are different from ordinary people believe; ordinary people cannot understand politicians. Consider now one is the politician. Successful politicians are distant and far from the ordinary person. But as those politicians distant themselves from the ordinary folks, the ordinary folks will consider politicians as all evil.

Spoiler for Last part:

ちなみに、魔法少女のお仕事とは、魔女を狩ること。しかし、その魔女とは、魔法少女の未来の姿。少女が大人 になって、女になるように、魔法少女も大人になって、魔女になる。その魔女を魔法少女が狩るという構図。こ れが何ともシュール。

It is the job of magical girls to hunt witches. However, witches are the destiny of magical girls. Young girls grow up, they become women. Magical girls become adults, and they become witches. So this picture of magical girl hunting witches... How surreal is this?

「魔法少女まどか☆マギカ」が別名、「血だまりスケッチ」と呼ばれる所以がわかったような気がする。大人が 見るべきアニメです。

I understood Madoka Magica is nicknamed Chidamari Sketch. It is an anime for adult.

[jeroz]

Originally Posted by sa547

In keeping on topic, Seitsuki gave a partial translation of a politician's commentary about the show.

Like the others, I recommend closer rewatching to get the gist of what's really going on.

oh lolz
is this guy finding similarities between the role of Mahou shoujo in madoka to the role of politicians in real life?

You know, it's funny coz that might just be the case here. XD

hilarious stuff

[sa547]

He saw parallels between the show and of the current Japanese political scene.

He seems that he saw a piece of himself and other politicians right there, realizing just how much power the voters have placed upon them, but in consequence they have to live a public life and their actions and the use of political power under intense scrutiny, thus making politicians much different from their constituents.

As with magical powers, political powers involves much tradeoff to be made.

[MaiNoKen]

I find the last part of the blog very good, and makes me think about quite a few things.

Homura tells Madoka that she must be herself. It is loaded with the meaning: "You must remain with your childhood and youthful ideals." When one grow up and accept the meaning of adult life, one shall fall to a different life - witch, cruelty and reality of life.

I actually have never considered that interpretation before I read that blog...

PS: As a bit of extra information:
The poster is Tanaka Ken - a district official of Edokawa - one of the wards of Tokyo.

[applejuice]

Ah. Tanaka Ken. He is famous for being quite of animation fan despite being politician.

It was very good read. Thanks.

[MaiNoKen]

Tanaka Ken has a follow-up post:

http://www.t-ken.jp/diary/20110309/

I can try to translate it tomorrow.