Umineko FanFiction Discussion

[Renall]

Strange that progress is as slow as it is; the current runtime is nowhere near as bad as some of the longer parts. The first half is finished (albeit not fully edited), clocking in a little over two hours. This one I'll probably split into 2-3 videos to reduce viewer fatigue as that was apparently an issue last time. Anyway the length is probably partially distractions and partially just being pretty hard to get right. Questions are a lot easier than answers!

Contextless preview images from the first half:

Spoiler for SECRETS REVEALED! Except If You Haven't Read It Yet:

[Drifloon]

It's funny how blond Beatrice's sprite actually looks strange now after seeing so much of Sarah.

[Renall]

Redaction of the Golden Witch - Coffee Break

Tea parties? What are we, six years old? Less than that? The only brew that properly suits a sobering answer (or complements a good cigarette) is a strong cup of coffee. Join the witches for a warm drink and all the answers you can handle in one sitting.

The first part is here.
The second part is here.

The TRUE final Tea Party is coming... in a little while, anyway.

[Thunder Book]

If Diego Armando doesn't have a cameo in the Coffee Break, I'm declaring Redaction to be a failure.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Thunder Book

If Diego Armando doesn't have a cameo in the Coffee Break, I'm declaring Redaction to be a failure.

Well no, but there is a lawyer.

[Titanguy654]

I'm confused, how can Battler's alternative theory be valid? The letter caused at least one person to die, right? How would that apply to his theory? I guess you could say that writing the letter caused him to be shot by Eva, but Shannon outed the letter as being fake pretty early on. It didn't seem to have much consequence in the story's direction.

So unless I'm horribly confused, Sarah created a logic error by calling Battler's interpretation valid.

[Thunder Book]

Under Battler's theory, you could argue that Shannon or Kanon has died!

Alternatively, the same set of events that lead to the creation the letter also lead to Kinzo dying, therefore one can say that the "letter" killed Kinzo if the "letter"'s definition also includes the events necessary for it to be created in the first place. Admittedly this one is a stretch...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Titanguy654

I'm confused, how can Battler's alternative theory be valid? The letter caused at least one person to die, right? How would that apply to his theory? I guess you could say that writing the letter caused him to be shot by Eva, but Shannon outed the letter as being fake pretty early on. It didn't seem to have much consequence in the story's direction.

So unless I'm horribly confused, Sarah created a logic error by calling Battler's interpretation valid.

Think of a longer causal chain.

Spoiler:

Battler writes the letter -> people appear to respond to the letter with violence -> Battler blows everyone up, unaware they weren't really dead.

Battler is the one who is deceived, and in the deception makes true what he was mistaken in thinking was happening. The others didn't intend to kill anyone anyway.

It's a fairly silly theory to start with (and was intended to be), but it's believable... if you're a lawyer familiar with the concept of proximate cause. It's pretty much the exact same logic that allows for Battler to be "responsible" for deaths he didn't directly cause in the intended theory. It's valid in Sarah's theory, so it's valid in the alternate one, or else you kinda have to reject it in both (which is fine if you don't like it). Admittedly it requires believing that Battler essentially fooled himself with his own letter, but that was the entire point.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Ah, answers.

Spoiler for Hot Coffee:

Well, 1986 was the harder part for me. The explanations there are most interesting in places where I feel like I was close but not quite there. For example, I had Battler pegged as an accomplice in the whole 'There's an heir named Lion' scheme, but not the primary actor behind it.

Still, I feel like there are holes in both Sarah's nihilistic interpretation, and Battler's optimistic take. (I know, both are technically Battler's theories, but Sarah suggested the first one was her intention as the author, right?)

In Sarah's version, how did Shannon's corpse end up near the front of the house instead of by Kinzo's study, which would have been around the side? Where did the prepared letter in Shannon's hand come from since there are no typewriters on the island? Is ninja-Shannon running on roof-tops (until she slips off) officially part of that version of the story? Because that's kinda awesome. Also, who prepared a letter to slip under Shannon's hand, and why? That thing was too well prepared to be a 'dying message' like painting in blood on the wall. It seems to rule out the possibility that this was Sarah's actual intent. Also, how did Krauss come charging up the stairs into Kyrie after beating Rudolph to death... and end up being defenestrated and crawling away to die? Jujitsu? I thought that martial arts stuff was Eva's forte, lol.

In Battler's version, Why are George and Jessica randomly freaking out and being suspicious of Kannon and himself? Why does Maria run off? If they're in on the story, or if Nanjo is following them around with status updates for the conspirators (now there is a man I would not expect to be talented at stealth...), wouldn't someone have seen Battler go and activate the clock destruct device, thus being able to go "WAIT WAIT IT WAS ALL A TRICK YOU FOOL! DO NOT MAKE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE!"

Activating the bomb is pretty out there in either version of the story, to be honest. Of course, that is true in Prime as well. It is only sympathetic or redeemable in a scenario where you believe everyone in the mansion and guest house is either already dead, or guilty of something too terrible to forgive.

I wonder if there is another twist to the tale of 1986 coming, or maybe I misunderstood something? The old standby of Umineko is, when you are given two options, the correct answer is usually some 3rd take. But everything between Battler and Sarah's theories ends up looking like Black-Battler nonsense. I'm not sure where to look for another viable take on what happened.

By the way, Sarah says in red there are 1000s of killings in Beatrice's name in the future... I kinda hope she's talking about the cumulative sum of the forgeries. In my 'copycat serial killer' hypothesizing, I could see dozens, maybe even a hundred at an upper end, but 1000s? Only if you count forgeries. Gotta be. Murder rates just aren't high enough for something like that in any reasonable time span for a child of the 80s to live to see.

[AuraTwilight]

Spoiler for Response to GBH:

In Sarah's version, how did Shannon's corpse end up near the front of the house instead of by Kinzo's study, which would have been around the side?

You realize Kinzo's study has a window to the side AND front, right?

Where did the prepared letter in Shannon's hand come from since there are no typewriters on the island?

Excuse me, says who?

Also, who prepared a letter to slip under Shannon's hand, and why?

Probably the people who put her body there.

Also, how did Krauss come charging up the stairs into Kyrie after beating Rudolph to death... and end up being defenestrated and crawling away to die? Jujitsu? I thought that martial arts stuff was Eva's forte, lol.

Ever seen someone get shot while standing infront of a window? They'll fly.

In Battler's version, Why are George and Jessica randomly freaking out and being suspicious of Kannon and himself? Why does Maria run off? If they're in on the story, or if Nanjo is following them around with status updates for the conspirators (now there is a man I would not expect to be talented at stealth...), wouldn't someone have seen Battler go and activate the clock destruct device, thus being able to go "WAIT WAIT IT WAS ALL A TRICK YOU FOOL! DO NOT MAKE A TERRIBLE MISTAKE!"

Uh, no? The freakouts at Battler are scripted, with the intended reaction being to isolate Battler so he reaches the Golden Land, figures out the final clue, and comes back to the mansion, where everyone is waiting for him.

If you recall, Beatrice never talks to Kinzo in this universe, so she might not even know about the bomb.

[Renall]

A few things generally to keep in mind about 1986:

Spoiler:

• The Forgery is discredited in its time, which means whatever interpretation people of the future had of it, they didn't much like it or thought it was "wrong." If your initial reaction to the story is the same, think about what both you and the future people may have been expecting versus what actually showed up.
• Walter argued all along that the Forgery had a parallel purpose and might not have been entirely about 1986 at all. What does our knowledge of the author suggest about why some of these things were put in the story?
• The author clearly cares more about why than how. She's not accepting the alternate solution as valid because it meshes perfectly with all the facts. She's accepting it because something in it is important to her. It means something to her just as it means something to Battler. Remember, her version of 1986 is a "what if" to begin with; she doesn't believe her interpretation is the truth of Rokkenjima. But she does believe something, and Battler is challenging that with what amounts to an elaborate troll bluff. Like he said, she could've immediately and permanently destroyed that solution if she wished to. Why did she choose instead to surrender?

[Renall]

Redaction of the Golden Witch - ???? (True Tea Party)

The finale so explosive, dai might get my account suspended! I strongly recommend watching in 1080p.

Many truths are now known. And many mysteries have been resolved. Only one mystery remains, but that truth is not so easily revealed. It is guarded carefully in a wounded heart. Join the Witches in their final thoughts, and seek alongside them the path to the future.

[GoldenLand]

The true tea party's already out? You're fast, Renall! I haven't had time to watch the coffee break yet. Congratulations on all your great work so far.

*goes to download the tea party - might as well have it ready to watch even if it takes a while*

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Argh, yet more references I don't get...

Spoiler for The Name pun:

Beulah Richards.... Is this a Reference fail on my part? I googled it thinking there might be some musician or something but that failed. Or could it be..

Beulah Richards
Bride of Richards
Bride of Dick

Is the implication that her future husband is an asshole or something? Doesn't really mesh with the happy wedding scene so I don't think that's the intent. Or is it that her name means

Spoiler for adult language:

she loves the cock

?

Mustafa is implied to be / be working for the long lost brother, who may or may not be Walter Absalom himself, right?

It would have been nice to get a bit more answer to 1996. I suppose, if we apply the 'three solutions' like we did in 1986, then the 'black' fragment would be Sarah murdering everyone to create the 'New witch', the 'Gold' Fragment is the official police report of 'yeah, just some dumb clutzy kids' and the 'Red' Fragment is, what, the boys get in a fight over Cass because they're raging piles of hormones, accidentally murder each-other, and Cass cuts herself in despair?

[AuraTwilight]

The reference is

Spoiler for Name Pun:

to a Japanese speaker, it sounds like Beatoriche, more or less.

As for 1996,

Spoiler for Meaning:

The three solutions thing doesn't necessarily translate over; that's mostly just some Death of the Author/genre stuff. The 1996 incident ties into the earlier theme of fallen and redeemed worlds. Is Sarah innocent or not, and so forth.

[Golden Bug-Hunter]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

The reference is

Spoiler for Name Pun:

to a Japanese speaker, it sounds like Beatoriche, more or less.

Spoiler for Name Pronunciation:

It... does? Ok. I'm wrestling with just how to pronounce that in English, let alone how a Japanese person would, so I'll take your word for it.

I still kinda like my theory though. I mean come on. Look at her vows with Andy in the end. When you give it to Sarah, she makes it ten times better!

I'll stop now. Please don't hurt me.

As for 1996,

Spoiler for Meaning:

The three solutions thing doesn't necessarily translate over; that's mostly just some Death of the Author/genre stuff. The 1996 incident ties into the earlier theme of fallen and redeemed worlds. Is Sarah innocent or not, and so forth.

Spoiler for Everybody loves the 90s:

Well, ok, but you get where I'm coming from, right? We don't even get the solid fragment-theories we did for the 80s, except for Walter's 'Black Sarah' theory that was specifically crushed by the fact that there was no room for her on the plane. I understand that 'you suck at chess' so that's not the game you want to play. But when you put a chess board out with chess pieces on it, and invite people to play a game, and you even see chess pieces moving around the board like a chess piece would, it's a bit... odd... when they tell you it's actually a game of monopoly.

Well, it's Umineko fanfiction, so if it didn't leave a shit-ton of unanswered questions and 'choose your own answer', it wouldn't be true to the source, right?

[Renall]

I think there's really only two or three possible answers for 1996. The information is there, but I'm deliberately leaving it open to interpretation because of the themes of the story. You can get yourself to the point of "Well, it was probably either this or this," but which one you pull the trigger on is going to be your call. It's not a catbox by any means, it's just you have to take a certain perspective to be comfortable with one answer or the other.

I'd also argue it's not the point, but I certainly don't intend to create a zero-answers situation either. But to be true to the source material I can't say everything (and I think saying everything I could about 1986 is at least fair, right?).

[Thunder Book]

I probably just wasn't paying enough attention to the thematic elements of the 1996 story, but the ending to that particular part of Redaction seemed anti-climatic to me. With the reveal of

Spoiler:

the plane not having enough seats

, I can't really say I understand what you were wanting audiences to get out of that.

Spoiler:

That Sarah wasn't the murderer after all? That the three kids killed each other on accident? That Sarah got there in some other way and killed them?

The initial idea of someone "imitating" the Rokkenjimma Massacre to make a point about how screwed up it is to make entertainment out of real tragedies (Sort of reminds me of things like that Sherlock Holmes vs. Jack the Ripper game) was really interesting, but I don't really know what to think about it all now.

I hate to criticize a story I otherwise liked a lot, especially a fan-work at that, but I'm not sure the ambiguity of this particular story element is exactly compelling...at least to me. Probably just more of an issue of my personal taste though.

Maybe I just need to read through it all again.

[AuraTwilight]

Thunderbook, You're missing the main theme of Sarah's entire character.

Spoiler for Themes:

Sarah's crippling, tragic flaw is that she warps her self-image and feels immense, life-destroying, self-poisoning guilt over things that aren't really her fault. The implication that she was a terrible friend, and blames herself for kids being killed due to their own idiocy, reflects her taking personal responsibility for other people's actions because she doesn't want to accept that it's the world that's fucked up and broken and shitty.

But by doing that, she is hurting her future, and the person who exists in her future. She's pulling a Yasu, trying to do right by the people who aren't here anymore, but is hurting the person she cares about who is still around.

[Thunder Book]

When you put it that way, things do make a lot more sense to me about the story.

I'm not sure why it didn't click with me when I was reading though.