Code Geass: Akito the Exiled OVA - Episode 2 Discussion / Poll

[ImperialFlameGod8190]

Its kinda funny how the only thing we've been talking about in this whole section is Lelouch and Julius. The show is that bad that its the only thing of note to talk about but whatever.

[Kusaja]

Obviously the Lelouch-related talk is going to spark more heated discussion, because different people feel quite strongly about that in both a positive and a negative sense. Having said that, I'm getting a little tired of having that same debate too. It's clear by this point that GundamFan0083 thinks Julius Kingsley somehow threatens to ruin the entire continuity and would almost kill Lelouch with angst, whereas I think it's a perfectly valid turn of events that has only a small negative impact on Lelouch that the man can easily handle and certainly doesn't change the general course of the story at all.

But moving on, I've been just as willing to talk about unrelated topics before and will do so again. With some luck we'll get a new PV somewhere around February.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by ImperialFlameGod8190

Its kinda funny how the only thing we've been talking about in this whole section is Lelouch and Julius. The show is that bad that its the only thing of note to talk about but whatever.

Yep, which is precisely the core of my problem with introducing Lelouch into this show.
It ruined what Akito could have been in my opinion: i.e. a show completely without Lelouch actively in it allowing the franchise to move past him.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Obviously the Lelouch-related talk is going to spark more heated discussion, because different people feel quite strongly about that in both a positive and a negative sense. Having said that, I'm getting a little tired of having that same debate too. It's clear by this point that GundamFan0083 thinks Julius Kingsley somehow threatens to ruin the entire continuity and would almost kill Lelouch with angst, whereas I think it's a perfectly valid turn of events that has only a small negative impact on Lelouch that the man can easily handle and certainly doesn't change the general course of the story at all.

But moving on, I've been just as willing to talk about unrelated topics before and will do so again. With some luck we'll get a new PV somewhere around February.

That's because you suffer from Fanboy Blindness.

[Kusaja]

So basically you're saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion qualifies as a blind fanboy?

That's quite a convenient attitude and a very ironic one considering your own behavior. You've literally given a 1/10 to both of the Akito movies (even before watching the second) just because Lelouch's presence automatically makes them the WORST.THING.EVER. It looks like you're the one who can't move on past Lelouch since that alone determines your entire opinion of the project.

It's a good thing that your radical stance remains a minority.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

So basically you're saying that anyone who doesn't agree with your opinion qualifies as a blind fanboy?

That's quite a convenient attitude and a very ironic one considering your own behavior. You've literally given a 1/10 to both of the Akito movies (even before watching the second) just because Lelouch's presence automatically makes them the WORST.THING.EVER. It looks like you're the one who can't move on past Lelouch since that alone determines your entire opinion of the project.

It's a good thing that your radical stance remains a minority.

Sunrise themselves have shown they can't make a Code Geass without Lelouch in it.
They don't need my opinion to express the Epic Fail that is this new project, they did it to themselves and it shows.
Code Geass and Lelouch are joined at the hip and my opinion of this series has to do with a conversation I had here with Xander many moons ago.

I posted this December 6th, 2009.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Xander View Post
The problem with conspiracy theories is that for every little thing they get right a dozen others are all wrong.

In any event, you don't need to go quite that far. All Sunrise and Bandai need to do is look at their own figures and notice what franchises are actually making them money. Gundam? Yes. Code Geass? Yes. You get the idea.

This doesn't mean something good or at least interesting can't be produced in order to get more of that money, but let's not fool ourselves: anime is a business. This isn't a new development and it's not going to change.

I hope whatever is going to come next is worth my attention, but I'm not expecting masterpieces here.

Honestly though, I don't want to sit here and speculate about what is or isn't canon without more information.

(Posted by GundamFan0083)
Which is precisely my point (about the money making element).
What makes Code Geass so popular?
Lelouch.
With Gundam it was the mecha, the Gundam itself that made the show popular (which is why every single Gundam series has Gundams in it).
But that isn't the case with Code Geass IMHO.
The KMFs don't make it popular.
Geass isn't what made it popular.
It was Lelouch.
Sunrise could wack every other character in the show except for Lelouch and a new series would sell (well they might need CC as well since she's pretty damn popular also).
Like you say Xander, it's money that's driving this not story, or continuity, or literary etiquette.
Just profit.
Thus I am of the opinion (and I really hope I'm dead wrong on this) that we'll see a sequel to R2 with Lelouch in it rather than a new story or retelling.
I'm cynical I know, but Sunrise has done this kind of thing since the original Gundam series and it's been very profitable for them so why would they change their marketing strategy now?

So you see, I don't suffer from fanboyism with regard to Code Geass.
I loved S1, didn't care much for the ending of R2, and am now totally disgusted with Akito.
Why?
Because, unfortunately, I was right about this show and my post from 2009 is proof of that.
I dreaded that Akito was going to have Lelouch in it in 2009, and to my chagrin Sunrise proved me correct with Kingsley.

[Kusaja]

Reading those older posts in context, you were originally speaking about a potential sequel to Code Geass R2 with Lelouch in it. Which would imply he's being revived from the dead after Zero Requiem.

That definitely hasn't happened, since Akito isn't a sequel to R2, so now you're simply exercising your right to expand the argument and move the goal posts to cover absolutely anything with Lelouch in it.

Look, it all comes down to the fact that Lelouch's presence ruins Akito for you. I understand that's your opinion.

Another perfectly valid opinion is that Lelouch's presence doesn't ruin Akito for other people, including those who aren't fanboys.

Because, you know, there are human beings who care about other aspects of the production.

This is still a new story where Julius Kingsley isn't the focus point. In fact, sales have remained stable despite his introduction in Akito 2.

Maybe, just maybe, it would appear that your diagnosis is slightly off and that you're overestimating its reach.

[azul120]

I don't like it because it means Lelouch was used as a pawn even worse, and yet still has the same not-so-happy conclusion to look forward to at the end of it all. (As, canonically speaking, R2 is still the de-facto conclusion.)

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Reading those older posts in context, you were originally speaking about a potential sequel to Code Geass R2 with Lelouch in it. Which would imply he's being revived from the dead after Zero Requiem.

That definitely hasn't happened, since Akito isn't a sequel to R2, so now you're simply exercising your right to expand the argument and move the goal posts to cover absolutely anything with Lelouch in it.

Look, it all comes down to the fact that Lelouch's presence ruins Akito for you. I understand that's your opinion.

Another perfectly valid opinion is that Lelouch's presence doesn't ruin Akito for other people, including those who aren't fanboys.

Because, you know, there are human beings who care about other aspects of the production.

This is still a new story where Julius Kingsley isn't the focus point. In fact, sales have remained stable despite his introduction in Akito 2.

Maybe, just maybe, it would appear that your diagnosis is slightly off and that you're overestimating its reach.

No.
I was speaking of all of the new projects (manga, anime, etc. that were announced) in that thread and as I stated above, my point was, and still is, that they can't make a successful Code Geass without Lelouch being in it.
Sunrise already proved this.
Back in 2009 it was a "maybe" now it is a fact.
There's nothing left to argue with regard to that.

As far as being a fanboy, you are, and there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm an UC Gundam fanboy so I'm like you with regard to UC Gundam.
I don't see the flaws in it that others do, and so I choose to ignore those flaws because to me the overarching world setting is awesome and thus any plot holes, ass pulls, or marketing ploys don't phase me.

[Lost Cause]

Think I'll restate my argument too. I'm all in favor of more Code Geass, and both Taniguchi and Okuchi started in their "after R2 ending press conference" that Geass want over, but Lelouch is DEAD and will not appear in any new manga/anime.
And yet he shows up in Renya as a different character, and now Akito. I was hoping Geass could move along without Lelouch but knew better.
I will however continue to watch Akito, as Suzaku's back story is interesting and we don't know what CC will bring to the table yet.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by azul120

I don't like it because it means Lelouch was used as a pawn even worse, and yet still has the same not-so-happy conclusion to look forward to at the end of it all. (As, canonically speaking, R2 is still the de-facto conclusion.)

Fair point, but I think that says more about your known dislike of the conclusion than about what's actually going on here.

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

No.
I was speaking of all of the new projects (manga, anime, etc. that were announced) in that thread and as I stated above, my point was, and still is, that they can't make a successful Code Geass without Lelouch being in it.
Sunrise already proved this.
Back in 2009 it was a "maybe" now it is a fact.

Only if you want to ignore that Lelouch isn't necessarily present in all of those new projects either.

Your own judgment about what is or isn't a success is also questionable.

In fact, I recall how you were absurdly arguing that the first episode of Akito wasn't a success.

Which is funny since the sales results for the second episode are essentially the same so far.

Once again, even a few people who actively dislike Code Geass have said that they prefer Akito, both in this forum and outside of it.

Does that mean they are "fanboys" too, because they don't see the same "flaws" that bother you?

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Think I'll restate my argument too. I'm all in favor of more Code Geass, and both Taniguchi and Okuchi started in their "after R2 ending press conference" that Geass want over, but Lelouch is DEAD and will not appear in any new manga/anime.

Your opinion is entirely your own, which is respectable, but those statements are a little incorrect.

Nobody has ever said in any press conference that Lelouch would never appear again in any new manga or anime.

Lelouch being dead post-R2 has no relevance on anything that happens during a pre-R2 period of time where he's still alive.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Think I'll restate my argument too. I'm all in favor of more Code Geass, and both Taniguchi and Okuchi started in their "after R2 ending press conference" that Geass want over, but Lelouch is DEAD and will not appear in any new manga/anime.
And yet he shows up in Renya as a different character, and now Akito. I was hoping Geass could move along without Lelouch but knew better.
I will however continue to watch Akito, as Suzaku's back story is interesting and we don't know what CC will bring to the table yet.

And I agree.
Lelouch's story was supposed to be "Lelouch of the Rebellion" that story has been told and outside of a cameo of Zero or some brief reference to Lelouch, Akito should have been a story without him playing a part.
Lelouch was supposed to be brainwashed at Ashford playing Big-Brother to Rolo at this point. The rewrite of that doesn't help the story, unless this is a total retcon of R2. But that remains to be seen.

Originally Posted by Kusaja

Only if you want to ignore that Lelouch isn't necessarily present in all of those new projects either.

Your own judgment about what is or isn't a success is also questionable.

In fact, I recall how you were absurdly arguing that the first episode of Akito wasn't a success.

Which is funny since the sales results for the second episode are essentially the same so far.

Once again, even a few people who actively dislike Code Geass have said that they prefer Akito, both in this forum and outside of it.

Does that mean they are "fanboys" too, because they don't see the same "flaws" that bother you?

No, I argued that without Lelouch this show couldn't make any money, and I've been arguing that since the announcement in 2009 that any new project after R2 would have Lelouch in it if it was part of the official timeline.
That's a fact now, so there is no point in arguing about it.

The sales are actually less than I expected (for the 2nd episode) since Lelouch is now in the anime. If you'd accept that point, that Lelouch is essential to Code Geass, then you'd see I'm correct.
I will bet that in the next episode Lelouch will have a greater role and once that gets out the sales of the 3rd volume will be even better.
More Lelouch = more money for Sunrise.
And that is what makes Akito an EPIC FAIL.
It can't stand on its own without Lelouch, and it's too late to go back because he's in it and the gig is up.
I don't see why Sunrise is playing footsie with this.
Sunrise just needs to resurrect him already in whatever way they can: have a Geass power that brings him back, make it a clone of him that got stabbed, have it be a mass Geass that fooled everybody into seeing him get run through with the sword, or just give the fanboys what they want and claim he's the cart driver with Charles', CC's, or the Easter Bunny's code. I don't care at this point because it's getting stupid.

Adding the fact that the addition of Lelouch into Akito as yet another brainwashed version of R2's "Big Brother Lelouch" only adds to the strong possibility of the story falling into a For Want of Nail derailment due to Kingsley's introduction.
Lelouch in R2 would be having an unbelievable "I Hate Past Me" quandary for reasons that have already been fleshed out and discussed here.

[wredsa]

I enjoyed the first episode, which was without Lelouch.

If Lelouch must be revived after R2, it should be like in Yugioh, some new char ( probly nunnally's descendant ) will touch the world of C and take Lelouch in his/her mind.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Lelouch's story was supposed to be "Lelouch of the Rebellion" that story has been told and outside of a cameo of Zero or some brief reference to Lelouch, Akito should have been a story without him playing a part.
Lelouch was supposed to be brainwashed at Ashford playing Big-Brother to Rolo at this point. The rewrite of that doesn't help the story, unless this is a total retcon of R2.

I think the Akito staff members are the ones who should determine what it should be, not you or me.

Your "solution" would only serve to make things worse, since retconning everything in R2 isn't remotely necessary to fit this in. Then again you've already admitted that you just don't care anymore, since now you want Sunrise to make a sequel to R2 and revive Lelouch simply out of spite.

And you're still implying that Akito 1 didn't make any money without Lelouch when all the facts point to the exact opposite. Akito 2 didn't make much more because, surprise, this release format is too slow and it isn't such a big deal for most people even with Lelouch. But those sales figures are entirely acceptable for a derivative work. In fact, there are many companies that would wish to make even this much with their own projects.

Seriously, getting 25,000-30,000 sales with just 50-60 minutes of animation isn't exactly a bad investment at all. Ask people in the sales threads.

Sunrise is playing "footsie" with this because, thankfully, someone in there does know that you can include Lelouch without "ruining" Akito since this isn't a repeat of the TV series but a different story set in a time where he was available for use in a lesser role. It just so happens that they drew the line in a place that's a little too far for you, but again...your negative stance is neither universally nor objectively correct. If the story were told from Julius Kingsley's point of view I'd probably be on your side, but that's clearly not happening here.

I've already objected in enough detail to your speculations about how Lelouch would supposedly take this turn of events.

[MK-95-]

Originally Posted by Lost Cause

Think I'll restate my argument too. I'm all in favor of more Code Geass, and both Taniguchi and Okuchi started in their "after R2 ending press conference" that Geass want over, but Lelouch is DEAD and will not appear in any new manga/anime.
And yet he shows up in Renya as a different character, and now Akito. I was hoping Geass could move along without Lelouch but knew better.
I will however continue to watch Akito, as Suzaku's back story is interesting and we don't know what CC will bring to the table yet.

[B]: Did I miss something? I thought R2 was stated to be open ended. ie. Subject to interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I'm not entirely sure myself.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I think the Akito staff members are the ones who should determine what it should be, not you or me.

Your "solution" would only serve to make things worse, since retconning everything in R2 isn't remotely necessary to fit this in. Then again you've already admitted that you just don't care anymore, since now you want Sunrise to make a sequel to R2 and revive Lelouch simply out of spite.

And you're still implying that Akito 1 didn't make any money without Lelouch when all the facts point to the exact opposite. Akito 2 didn't make much more because, surprise, this release format is too slow and it isn't such a big deal for most people even with Lelouch. But those sales figures are entirely acceptable for a derivative work. In fact, there are many companies that would wish to make even this much with their own projects.

Seriously, getting 25,000-30,000 sales with just 50-60 minutes of animation isn't exactly a bad investment at all. Ask people in the sales threads.

Sunrise is playing "footsie" with this because, thankfully, someone in there does know that you can include Lelouch without "ruining" Akito since this isn't a repeat of the TV series but a different story set in a time where he was available for use in a lesser role. It just so happens that they drew the line in a place that's a little too far for you, but again...your negative stance is neither universally nor objectively correct. If the story were told from Julius Kingsley's point of view I'd probably be on your side, but that's clearly not happening here.

I've already objected in enough detail to your speculations about how Lelouch would supposedly take this turn of events.

That comment was an agreement with Lost Cost, and was not directed at you, Kusaja.

Stop deflecting.

You know as well as I do that the damage has been done.
We aren't speculating at this point.
Lelouch is in the show as an active character that is part of the plotline.
He isn't here as a cameo or in a brief mention, he is one of the cast.
There is no way to avoid that at this juncture.
So it isn't a matter of whether or not I'm correct, I already am in so far as why I think they ruined a perfectly good opportunity to break away from Lelouch's character entirely, put another way: it's a matter of what has been done, not what will be done.

It doesn't have to be a repeat or a repetition of R2 or S1 to ruin Akito, it just has to involve Lelouch for it to not be able to stand on its own without him.
To deny that at this point is incredulous of the facts as they are.

Lelouch is in the show, yes?
Since you've no choice but to answer in the affirmative, you must concede the incontrovertible fact that Akito cannot stand on its own without Lelouch being in the show.

Now, I did not say that the sales would drop because of Lelouch being in the show, I said they would only get better.
Why?
Because Lelouch is Code Geass and Code Geass is Lelouch.
There is not doubt about this anymore.


This blogger's article expresses the same sentiments as mine, and I find that many Code Geass fans do share this sentiment.

http://mech2heart.wordpress.com/2013...eass-spoilers/

[azul120]

Originally Posted by mangakid95

[B]: Did I miss something? I thought R2 was stated to be open ended. ie. Subject to interpretation.

Correct me if I'm wrong though. I'm not entirely sure myself.

Their statement was that it was up to the viewer whether or not it was a good end for Lelouch. (It's that part I decide WASN'T the case.)

[Kusaja]

So now you're telling me what parts of the post I should quote? That's sweet in a slightly disturbing way, GundamFan0083.

You're correct in that Lelouch is part of the Akito cast. But whether this "ruins" anything or not is entirely a matter of subjective opinion.

You still ignore that there are some folks who prefer Akito to the rest of Code Geass because they don't really care about Lelouch. Yes, even after the arrival of Julius Kingsley. Clearly that reaction doesn't live up to your whole argument, no? You seem to have no way of explaining that as far as I can tell, if supposedly we are to assume "Code Geass = Lelouch" in every possible sense. Shouldn't they totally hate Akito after this happened?

I continue to deny your absolutism since the current story isn't about Lelouch, neither nominally nor effectively.

The narrative focus is on the new characters, not on him. This is like saying that Code Geass was the story of Cornelia and Schneizel because they were obstacles in Lelouch's path. But no, obviously it wasn't really a story about them. They just played a role in it as villains.

In Akito, Julius Kingsley will be an obstacle in the path of the Europeans and/or the Japanese. Someone who watches Akito for the first time doesn't necessarily need to know who is this mysterious guy with an eyepatch or all the baggage surrounding him. In that respect, the story does stand on its own since the narrative is going to make use of him as a proper villain, not as the protagonist. This is precisely what allows for a number of new viewers to watch this and maintain an interest regardless of Lelouch's presence.

If this makes some hardcore Lelouch fans happy and some money is also made from them, then fine. It's not the end of the world.

It's funny you would link to the blog of someone who doesn't hate Akito and say that you agree with it. That person did wish Lelouch wouldn't show up, true, but their reaction isn't a bad one, such as crying EPIC FAIL and immediately losing all interest in this new anime due to Julius Kingsley.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

So now you're telling me what parts of the post I should quote? That's sweet in a slightly disturbing way, GundamFan0083.

You're correct in that Lelouch is part of the Akito cast. But whether this "ruins" anything or not is entirely a matter of subjective opinion.

Glad to see you admit that Lelouch was needed for Akito.
I don't need to address your post beyond this point due to you admitting the incontrovertible fact that Sunrise didn't make this show without Lelouch being in it, and that shows a decision had to be made to bring him into the project because they know they can't make a Code Geass anime without him.
No Code Geass project that is part of the official timeline lacks a Lelouch character to date, so yes, Code Geass = Lelouch.
And that IS an EPIC FAIL on the part of Sunrise.

[Kusaja]

Originally Posted by GundamFan0083

Glad to see you admit that Lelouch was needed for Akito.
I don't need to address your post beyond this point due to you admitting the incontrovertible fact that Sunrise didn't make this show without Lelouch being in it, and that shows a decision had to be made to bring him into the project because they know they can't make a Code Geass anime without him.
No Code Geass project that is part of the official timeline lacks a Lelouch character to date, so yes, Code Geass = Lelouch.
And that IS and EPIC FAIL on the part of Sunrise.

I'm just sorry that you are apparently incapable of fully debating this issue in good faith and must resort to handwaving the other points.

Sunrise definitely made a choice, or rather a series of choices since you love to simplify things far too much, but instead of having a comprehensive reasoning you prefer to ignore all the details and facts that don't match your black-and-white perspective. Anything that would force you to step back a little bit and re-think some of your statements is useless, no matter what.

Be that as it may, in the end I'm glad that there are those of us who can enjoy Akito -including some people new to the property or critical of the events of the TV series that can't remotely be called "fanboys" and who are thus not hyper-sensitive to Lelouch's involvement, either way.

[GundamFan0083]

Originally Posted by Kusaja

I'm just sorry that you are apparently incapable of fully debating this issue in good faith and must resort to handwaving the other points.

Sunrise definitely made a choice, or rather a series of choices since you love to simplify things far too much, but instead of having a comprehensive reasoning you prefer to ignore all the details and facts that don't match your black-and-white perspective. Anything that would force you to step back a little bit and re-think some of your statements is useless, no matter what.

Be that as it may, in the end I'm glad that there are those of us who can enjoy Akito -including some people new to the property or critical of the events of the TV series that can't remotely be called "fanboys" and who are thus not hyper-sensitive to Lelouch's involvement, either way.

The only person here who is hyper-sensitive that I've seen is you, Kusaja.
You get all fanboyish on me because I rated this show a 1 and I agree with those here who dislike this show for various reasons (some I hadn't considered until others here displayed their displeasure with it).
It actually deserves less than a one in my opinion for it's failure to stand on its own, but that was the lowest I could give it unfortunately.

I have debated this issue for years--meaning that no Code Geass can be made without Lelouch or a clone of him in it--and Sunrise proved me correct.
Therefore, why should I bother grandstanding on something that is already a known fact?
It would be pointless to debate something that is incontrovertible.
You do know what that means don't you?
It means you cannot deny the truth of the issue because the evidence is insuperable.
There is no need to try and rationalize the fact that Lelouch is in Akito because Sunrise can't make a Code Geass without him.
It is as plain as the sun rising in the east.
There is nothing left to argue on that point.
I realize that for the fanboy that becomes impossible to digest, that Akito might suck for those who actually expect a quality storyline devoid of the same fillers such as Suzaku, CC, and Lelouch, but hey, people loved Twilight too so quality is certainly not a measure of popularity and vice versa.