Heavy, Deep, Profound.

[supremebeing13]

I just finished the liscensed series (yes i have the DVDs...) of Neon Genisis Evangelion. Including the movie. Geezum. I mean golly gee willickers. Anyone else feel totally stunned by the ending? Its like reading Seth or Sidhartha, or taking a *good* college-level philosophy class. It was like Peter F. Hamilitons "Hand of God." It was like ... it was awesome. Thats something thats highly lacking in the american movie department.

With stuff like this around Disney better get its act together. And no... K-Pax doesnt count guys.

Anyways, as im still touched by the ending of that great series, i must say, is there anything like that out there? In terms of anime? Anything so ... "stop all inane thought and center your being" kinda stuff out there?

I woulda put this under the Suggestions section, but its a multipurpose post. Im also asking peoples opinions. (O, i just remembered Akira... yes... Akira... i loved that one too... very profound.. mm...)

[TronDD]

Disney doesn't have to worry about anything. Americans don't seem to want deep thought. They want singing animals.

Other "deep thought" anime I've liked are Gunslinger Girl, and Narutaru. You can't go wrong with Ghost in the Shell, either. The presentation in GItS itsn't that great, it's geared towards action but the philosophy gets tossed in there (note that I also didn'tlike the presentatin of NGE, I thought it was a great story poorly told).


RaXephon is supposed to be good but I haven't seen it yet.

[supremebeing13]

Hmmmm... I watched Ghost in the Shell.. good movie. Deep. I kinda forgot about it, lol, silly me. As for the other 2? Gunslinger Girl and Narutaru, tell you the truth im not so well versed in anime to pretend i'v heard of these. I shall take your word for it and download them as soon as bandwidth permits, lol. Thanks for suggestions!

Edit:
2... not 3, '2', lol.

[babbito2k]

Suggestions forum is the way to go with this one. Not everyone shares your opinion of Evangelion, as this thread illustrates. The success of Evangelion led to a spate of similar titles at that time, probably all of which are licensed. Most of them didn't seem that good to me.

I will name a couple of unlicensed shows which loosely fit the bill.

Twin Spica - SF series.
Avenger - SF series.
Hundred Stories - horror series.
St. Luminous Mission High School - mystery series.
Condor Hero - martial arts series.

There are threads for most of these in the fansubs forum or you can google for details.

I'm glad to hear you enjoyed the series and got your money's worth.

[Jose GSG]

Movies-
Akira (don't really need to say much)
Jin-Roh (if you've seen it you'd know)

Series-
Gunslinger Girl (very emotionally heavy; makes you wonder what is right and what is wrong)
SE: Lain (for obvious reasons)
Betterman (Not only is the science in the show pretty complex stuff, but the mystery behind Betterman and all the weird happenings is all quite profound)


I was going to put NGE in the list until I realized it's just more of one person's own misery instead of an actual anime using these symbolizations correctly to display something.

[yeah_yeah_yeah]

please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy

i watched it and i didn't see anything that was particularly eye-opening

but i would be curious in knowing what other people think

[Kensuke]

To me, NGE was just mind-blowing, especially the characters. Main point of Evangelion isn't Angels or fight for humanity (last two episodes are proof of that).
Characters may first seem like any other anime: genki girl (Misato), shy girl (Rei), aggressive (Asuka) and weak male (Shinji) but there is something that Anno managed to do so that they are very multidimensional, and not just stereotypical.

Like like both endings, series and movie, they left me sitting in chair stunned "WTF just happened?" No other series or movie after that has affected me so deeply.

I would also recommend Haibane Renmei, it isn't as dark as Serial Experiment Lain.

[TronDD]

So it wasn't deep at all, just confusing?

[Jose GSG]

Anyone with a basic understanding of Christianity will know there isn't much pertinence at all for it in NGE. Nobody knows for sure what Anno's intention was, but he was most likely trying for something different. Whether he is religiously confused or just wanted to mess around with different symbolizations and stories, he did what he did. There isn't much to say other than it's just the work of someone with a free-roaming imagination.

[Lambda]

I think the stand-out recommendation in these circumstances has to be Serial Experiments Lain. (Already been mentioned, but deserves emphasis.) Most of the titles that one thinks of here have come in the decade following Evangelion, so it's possible to accuse them of copying, but in some cases that's unfair, it's more likely that Eva's success simply created a climate in which such ideas would be accepted rather than rejected by TV companies. Lain is certainly a title which you could never accuse of copying Eva, (at least not once you know how it arose), but more importantly it has similar virtues placed in a very different style. Like Eva it is not bound by the conventional rules of storytelling, it actively invites viewer interpretation and has many, many things in for this to be applied to, and it asks questions on the most fundamental levels. Everyone finds a different way of watching it, and gets something different out of it, but ultimately, if you find the "right" way of watching it, it can provoke a deeply personal and fundamental response.

Second on any such list I would place Revolutionary Girl Utena. On most levels, whilst longer and consequently containing more "lightness", this competes with Lain and Eva on an equal footing, although I am rather dubious as to whether it ultimately has a meaning which can be as satisfying. (I've only watched it one and a half times so far, so it's difficult to be conclusive.)

After this, you're really struggling for titles which work in similar areas. Angel's Egg should be mentioned, although very difficult to find, (we had a torrent here a while ago, but it isn't any more), and it doesn't even pretend to have any sort of conventional entertainment in it. Narutaru and Gunslinger Girl are both very fine stories, but Princess Tutu is clearly the best out of the more intellectual titles on AnimeSuki, though it doesn't really operate in the same areas. RahXephon is worth trying, but ultimately I think it appeals most to people who weren't quite satisfied with Eva, it takes what Eva superficially is and places it into a production based on conventional values, making it best for those who can't quite relate to anything too unconventional and who therefore don't tend to understand what Eva is doing, often misinterpreting features of its unique style as "flaws". Boogiepop Phantom is quite interesting, though perhaps not entirely new.

[TronDD]

Shame on me, I forgot Lain. One of the first Anime shows I saw and the first one I bought. Definatly a good one.

I think the style and complex (in a good way) story telling of Boogiepop is what sets it apart from other shows. I didn't find anything very "deep, or profound" about it. It's a good watch, though.

[supremebeing13]

Serial Experiments Lain seems to be widely acepted and liked, i shall try to download that. (bandwidth permitting, lol)

As for those who doubt Neon Genisis Evangelion... yes, the mechs, characters... speedy blue car, fan.... heh. Its all good, it can all make up a decent, even above decent anime by itself, especially in the format it was presented. But what set NGE apart for me... well... the ending... was just spectacular. I just loved how it made you think about life, memories, how you exist, what creates your soul. The Christian beleifs and symbols were flavor but, to me, this show/movie weren't centered around christianity. (its still not totally known what is actually on the dead scrolls for one...) It just put the series in a context many of us familiarize ourselves with.

And although i dont agree with all the thoughts put forth by the directer (Agnostic, so im still uncertain what to beleive it certainly makes you think a little bit. Creation? Destruction? Humanitys conception, what makes you alive, how we are represented, how we perpetuate, what happens should some cataclismic event should wipe us all out. And many of us have thought about all these before, but even with those set in our ideals it does make us look at them from a different perspective. And it is this unique perspective that(i think) makes Neon Genisis Evangelion a Profoundly deep and heavy show + movie.

Btw, thanks for responses all, hehe.

[Wandering A.I.]

>please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy

I've been through too many Eva threads to want to state my opinion anymore, but Ask John has a nice short answer ^^:
Can You Explain the Meaning of Evangelion?

And also this answer of his has an interesting comparison with Lain/etc regarding accessibility:
Why is Evangelion so Popular?

Btw, off topic but I hope all you Eva fans have written to ADV how they shouldn't use 20 somethings for the characters or at least begged them to keep some of the human interaction/finding a place in the world/etc themes besides just the action/fighting bit. ^^

[Kyuven]

Lain is a good series
if you wanna be reeeeal confused, you could watch what i think is THE most blatant EVA rip off in history: Dual! Parallel Trouble Adventure (everything from the characters to the mechs can be related to eva)

[ChibiDusk]

Lain Lain Lain, thought I would say it some more
Definatly watch this, or, watch it 3 times so you even vaguely understand it

[Mugen]

i would say:
Angels egg
Patlabor 1
Patlabor 2
Patlabor 3
Akira
Ghost in the shell
Rahxephon, the series and the movie - if u like nge
Cowboy Bebop the movie (kinda)

Id get started on seeing them, there all classics .Well as far as im concerned

[uzumaki]

Originally Posted by Wandering A.I.

>please tell me about what you found EVA that is so profound and heavy

I've been through too many Eva threads to want to state my opinion anymore, but Ask John has a nice short answer ^^:
Can You Explain the Meaning of Evangelion?

And also this answer of his has an interesting comparison with Lain/etc regarding accessibility:
Why is Evangelion so Popular?

Btw, off topic but I hope all you Eva fans have written to ADV how they shouldn't use 20 somethings for the characters or at least begged them to keep some of the human interaction/finding a place in the world/etc themes besides just the action/fighting bit. ^^

That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.

All the eva fans i've met so far have been like this :
Fan type #1 : "Yeah yeah saw eva, real DEEP and HEAVY, makes you THINK... i saw it and i was like wth///
Fan type #2 : (usually occuring after you ask a person what specifically they liked about eva) "Yeah its really deep: the characters are really complex and it makes you think about life and humans and religion and BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Fan type #3 are what the link includes, they talk with extensive references from freud and other people who diagnosed mentally screwed up people, and SOMEHOW relate strange strange theories to eva...

i dunno, maybe im just stupid, but i certainley dont see these things in eva. All I saw was a little guy whining CONSTANTLY about his stupid problems and "misery" (BOO HOO IM SOO SAD FOR HIM SNIFF SNIFF SOB SOB)

[supremebeing13]

~~~~~~~~~ lol ~~~~~~~~~

[luniz]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.

I agree that it seems like people say Eva is all deep and meaningful, but they don't say what is deep or meaningful about it. I think it's overrated in that aspect.

I do think it is certainly thought provoking and interesting, moreso than a lot of anime. To me, all the ending does is say something for the director. "Look Dad, I don't care what you think, this is what anime is and can be, it can express ideas relating to war, religion, releationships, boobies, whatever, but this anime is about me and my self expression" etc. I don't think that concept is particularly "deep" or mindblowing although it's very unique when you look at American tv/movies.

I felt much more of a profound emotional impact from Now and Then, Here and There, and Grave of the Fireflies, and a few like that, than I did from NGE.

But, that's just my opinion, it's not anything that has to go for anybody else.

[Lambda]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

That link : IMO it is big time OVER-ANALYZING...
Honestly and serioulsy, if someone got an understanding of eva like those ideas, then please inform me.

All the eva fans i've met so far have been like this :
Fan type #1 : "Yeah yeah saw eva, real DEEP and HEAVY, makes you THINK... i saw it and i was like wth///
Fan type #2 : (usually occuring after you ask a person what specifically they liked about eva) "Yeah its really deep: the characters are really complex and it makes you think about life and humans and religion and BLAH BLAH BLAH"
Fan type #3 are what the link includes, they talk with extensive references from freud and other people who diagnosed mentally screwed up people, and SOMEHOW relate strange strange theories to eva...

i dunno, maybe im just stupid, but i certainley dont see these things in eva. All I saw was a little guy whining CONSTANTLY about his stupid problems and "misery" (BOO HOO IM SOO SAD FOR HIM SNIFF SNIFF SOB SOB)

Intellectually, Evangelion is mostly an interpretative anime. Which roughly means you get out of it what you put in to it. While there are considerable complexities with very real and definite answers, they're not actually all that important. What is extremely important, to the extent that it can occasionally result in life-changing "messages" is its ability to induce questions. And thanks to its emotional and visceral power, in the receptive mind, this creates a far more interesting effect than any amount of asking equivalent questions in a neutral atmosphere. To summarise, Evangelion is an impressively powerful tool in creating the conditions for the human mind to effectively re-examine its position on fundamental and important issues. This is why it is an extremely deep anime. Not because it actually explicitly contains any particular deep messages. But because it creates the ideal situation for people to add their own.

And this is the only real good way of going about the task. Sure, you could imbue something with a philosophy of great depth which you found to be meaningful. But what use is that to anyone else? Everyone has different questions they want answered, different facets of their life that they want insight into. A logical and dispassionate analysis to determine its fundamental worth is not the right way to look at Evangelion. Humans are not completely logical creatures, and Eva is made with this in mind. Logical analysis is only a proper tool to develop your personal interpretation, since that is a part (but only a part) of standard human thought processes for dealing with such things. The basic "hooks" of Evangelion are rooted in emotion and irrationality, because that is the way humans behave on a basic level.

Criticising Evangelion for not having an explicit real and deep philosophy is like criticisng an abstract painting for not having an explicit and accurate depiction of reality. It's completely missing the point. And criticisng a fan for adoring a show which can help them find something so deep inside themselves that they can't even explain it is just to completely misunderstand the whole process.

And finally, criticising Shinji for finding, for example, the idea of suddenly having to risk death fighting a giant killing machine intimidating shows a certain disconnection from reality.