2009-07-23, 21:59 | Link #1701 |
Komrades of Kitamura Kou
Join Date: Jul 2004
Age: 39
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There is no true confirmation on their absolute truth aside from the people in the game who accept it as such and use it as such. What is debatable, at least for most of the players, is the interpretation. While the red truth does describe a truth, the truth is subject to interpretation, and that's where the total meaning of the red is still debated.
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2009-07-23, 22:05 | Link #1702 |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Truth is changeable yes, but I don't like the theory that all red is false. Red text is really the only help we get in solving these mysteries, because of all the magical alterations. If red text turns out to be a trick and void then I would be mad, because then anti-fantasy believers have no real information at all. The idea in introducing red text is to give Battler some footing, otherwise he really has no chance against Beato because she can alter any scene he sees in meta-world.
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2009-07-23, 22:16 | Link #1703 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Actually Bern said that this game is very unfair, so I am expecting a bad trick somewhere, something that will make us facepalm. "The red truth is a lie" theory wasn't bad, it could explain a lot of things, but I think I've proven this is not the case.
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2009-07-23, 22:21 | Link #1705 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
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Red text is also tricky because when the red text is used that could be the truth at that time but that truth can change over time if if it describes a status.
Example: There are no more than 18 people on this island. No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game. Kinzo is dead. Krauss is dead. Natsuhi is dead. Hideyoshi is dead. George is dead. Rudolf is dead. Kyrie is dead. Rosa is dead. Maria is dead. Genji is dead. Shannon is dead. Kanon is dead. Gohda is dead. Kumasawa is dead. Nanjo is dead. The 15 people mentioned are dead. Battler is alive. Eva is alive. Jessica is alive. These describe the CURRENT status of those people. People get confused when they try to link those CURRENT status elements with past events such as: neither Jessica nor Battler nor Eva is the culprit who killed Nanjo! Nanjo was killed by another person. ...Of course, it was with a direct method of murder, not a trap. A weapon was readied, and he was killed with it from point-blank range in front of him! The culprit appeared openly before Nanjo's eyes, and as they both looked at each other's faces, the culprit killed him If the CURRENT status of all the people would have been confirmed PRIOR to the murder of Nanjo then it would have logically been impossible. |
2009-07-24, 04:10 | Link #1707 |
Letter from lost days ~
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Netherlands / Turkey
Age: 35
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Hmm fair enough. How about Red truth does not exist, it is only for confusing people. Or even Things I say in red sometimes are true, sometimes are false.
After all, she IS a witch, so no reason to trust her never ever ever again (after finishing EP 3... >_<' ) Or IS she? O.o Last edited by Skullchukka; 2009-07-24 at 04:25. |
2009-07-24, 07:15 | Link #1709 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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A more common theory, as you can see by the other posts, is that the red truth is subjected to interpretations. See for example the fact that Beatrice in ep2 and ep3, uses external (not red) definitions of closed room and traps. Those are not absolute definitions, proof is the fact that Beatrice once said "I'll add that to the closed room definition". So the red truth is absolute but the very word's definitions it uses aren't absolute... you get the picture.
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2009-07-24, 14:14 | Link #1711 | ||
Classic Yandere
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Philadelphia
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a "witch" is human. a "witch" gets to be excluded from the red? Basically the case she's making is for a 19th person that is human and yet doesn't count... if that makes any sense. Doesn't prove witches so much... it does kind of prove some kind of exception to the red, though.
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2009-07-24, 22:44 | Link #1712 |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Gensokyo
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I think of the Rokkenjima massacre as a section of reality that is put into Schrodinger's box. Once inside, numerous possibilities will occur all resulting in the tragedy, but in different ways. As such, the gameboards are formed.
Picture a linear timeline, the line never diverges or fuse with other lines (parallel universes). On Oct. 4 to Oct. 5 of 1986 on Rokkenjima however, the single line splits into an infinite number of parallel lines until they merge together again when the seagulls cry. In other words, at 24:00 or 0:00 of Oct. 6 the box opens to reveal the results. Think of those infinite lines as the infinite number of boards, the limitless number of scenarios Beatrice could pull off to prove the existence of witches to Battler. One major advantage that we, the readers, have over Battler is that we see part of what's inside the opened box in Ange's future. In the past 2 games, each board resulted in a different future. As long as the box remains closed, the truth remains as a jumble of infinite lies. Only until the box is opened can one of the lies turn into the truth. As of Ep 3 and Ep 4, we have been revealed the future that resulted from the opened box. As soon as we are shown the future, the box opens and the previous truth gets replaced by a new truth. This is why the red is so important. In a world of infinite lies, the red becomes a beacon that tells the result of the opened box. A red statement said on any board only applies to the one single board that remains once the box has been opened. What this means is that it becomes possible to manipulate the events of the board to seemingly contradict the red truth. Once logic fails, one has to accept a higher power, in this case, witches and magic. Consider this.. A child finds a fork in the road, one path leads to heaven while the other to hell. Of course, this situation only contains 2 possibilities as opposed to the infinite that we are dealing with, but the same concept applies. Say that the child leaves this to chance and flips a coin to decide where he is to go, heads represents the splendor of heaven and tails entails the suffering of hell. Now he flips and covers the result with his hand or a convenient box. At this specific moment, we have no idea where his fate lies, thus both options alone are lies. Only a jumble between heaven and hell represents the truth. Let's leave this for now and fast forward into the future, we find the same child enjoying breakfast in heaven. Immediately we would know that the result was heads without even seeing that it was indeed heads. Now that we know the child ended up flipping heads, it becomes possible for us to play "witch" and rewind to the child before opening the box. We see a stranger and lift him into a godly perspective where he can see both possibilities and their respective futures. Say we take him to the parallel world where the child flipped tails and we tell the stranger this absolutely true statement in red "the child flipped heads and since you cannot explain this, witches and magic must exist". To the stranger, the present event of the boy revealing a tail-up coin is definitely the truth, however, that truth is rendered obsolete by the definite future where the boy flipped heads. Like Bernkastel said, a future truth will always replace a truth in the past. So even if Eva-Beatrice outlines such an intricate web of red surrounding Nanjo's death and while it may seem to contradict all possible logic, we can still claim that witches do not exist. Since the red never lies, if that is the case, then the parallel world itself must be a lie. Nanjo was indeed killed by human X under the restrictions of the red statements, it's explainable because the events of this world is a lie and the red only applies to another world. |
2009-07-24, 22:59 | Link #1713 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
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If you just mean that the things that Battler is shown are unreliable, that was demonstrated pretty definitively in EP3 anyway. But it seems like you're really advocating ignoring everything other than the red in order to piece together the "real truth" and that all the red applies simultaneously... well, I wonder where that gets you?
I suppose it could be checked whether the red agrees between games, but something tells me it's not going to do so cleanly. |
2009-07-24, 23:13 | Link #1715 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Gensokyo
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2009-07-24, 23:18 | Link #1716 | |
Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Gensokyo
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In general though, yeah, but only to me. You might have a different interpretation. I find this the easiest way to explain everything. |
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2009-07-25, 08:03 | Link #1717 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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2009-07-26, 04:23 | Link #1718 |
Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
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After reading episode 3 and not yet being able to go through all this thread I have the following observations and questions
1. one thing that bothers me about Battlers explanation of beatrice back story (that she was a baby Kinzo raised after the original Beatrice comitted suicide) is that Beatrice stated that she never give in to Nanjos advances which would mean Nanjo raped the first Beatrice also its kinda pushy that the baby would survive when the mother comitted suicide in a plce without access to medical facilities). To me the Anti-fantasy version of the history sounds morel ike Kinzo found a way to clone Beatrice....its sci fi but its still Anti Fantasy 2. When Beatrice states that there are only 18 people in THIS Rokkenjima I understand to mean the same that when Rika talked about THIS Hinamizawa meaning there could have been more than 18 people in episodes 1 and 2 and also the next episodes...... wanted to ask people who understand japaneese if this is the correct implication 3. The final attack of red had me overwhelmed the only thing I have left is that Kannon real name might be Kinzo or Genji (the other names would be to weird for he to have) allowing Beatrice to state that Kinzo or Genji are definately dead without referring to the person we know as Kinzo and Genji... Also I was wondering whether nanjo is first a name or a family name.... if it is a family name there is alos the possibility that Kannon or Shannon are children of Nanjo who he abandoned at Kinzos orphanage allowing for Beatrice to misleadingly state nanjo is dead. Would probably post more thought tomorrow morning |
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