Mari Okada discussion

[Guardian Enzo]

I really think it all comes down to ego. She's probably an egotistical person by nature (just a guess based on her recent behavior) and when the industry began to kowtow shamelessly to her every whim, the ego spun out of control to the point where now, first and foremost, everything she writes is about her. The integrity of the material is sloppy seconds to that.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Utsuro no Hako

I'd also point to Yoko Ogawa's Hotel Iris which is like a serious version of HanaIro's infamous third episode. There's a girl working at a seaside hotel with her shrewish mother. A guy who claims to be a translator of Russian literature comes to stay and beats up a prostitute in his room. The girl becomes fascinated with him and eventually strikes up a soda-masochistic romance with him. She discovers that rather than translating literature, he's doing Russian porno stories. [spoiler]They're eventually discovered and he commits suicide by jumping off a boat and drowning. [/spoiler.

You know what? I'd be willing to beat a few dollars that HSI episode 3 is an intentional parody on Okada's part. Hell, might explain how she convinced others to go along - "It's not stupid! We're parodying actual literature!"

Originally Posted by Triple_R

If there's one criticism of Okada that i think even her biggest fans should admit to, it's yeah, she clearly has issues with men.

Hanasaku Iroha alone demonstrates that. There were plenty of male characters in that show, and by the end of it, the only one that wasn't emasculated and/or made to look bad was Tohru (well, and Beanman, but he was a pretty minor character).

Contrast that with most of the female cast that, by comparison, come out smelling like roses (especially the female lead Ohana of course).

Question to the thread: are buffoonish male characters common in J and K dramas?
Because if so, in light of the parallels people have drama between HSI and J and K drama in the past, I think genre convention is a much more satisfying explanation for Okada's choices here than having man issues. Particularly since there's some evidence that her taste in anime men runs towards characters like Shrade from Aquarion Evol. And I'm pretty sure I've run into buffoonish characters in at least a couple J dramas I've seen.

Originally Posted by Haak

It's funny because I've hating this show a lot and yet here is an episode entirely focused on haters. I couldn't even tell if it was actually trying to win me over or if it was trolling the hell out of me and that's just a horrible development. I can no longer tell when Okada is actually trolling or being serious.

I actually went and watched the episode just so I could participate in this discussion (otherwise I haven't seen AKB for a couple weeks). My take is no, she's not trolling. It's just a typical LOLWTF comedy episode of AKB (I have to protect my first hater from the DES!) that happens to feature hate mail as a plot element.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Why a writer would feel the need to troll a fanbase is beyond me. I don't see what's to be gained from that sort of relationship with the people that are supposed to be your supporters. It's one thing to joke or maybe throw the odd reference to a bad experience into something (like Anno and his infamous wall of hate in End of Eva, remember when that was shocking and oh so controversial? Seems like a while ago eh folks?), but to just have this childish slapfight with the fans like Okada seems to be having of late spread across several differrent shows she's writing for breeds nothing but ill will and misgivings that will carry into the future. I don't think I've ever seen a more unprofessional staffer in my time as an anime fan as Okada is coming across.

What childish slapfight with what fans? At least provide an example or two.

I don't tend to dispute it when people call Okada a troll writer, but that's because she of the fact many of her shows are somewhat tongue in cheek and she has a tendency to yank shipper's chains... I'm not thinking of any true dickery on her part, Kadokawa style or otherwise.

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

I really think it all comes down to ego. She's probably an egotistical person by nature (just a guess based on her recent behavior) and when the industry began to kowtow shamelessly to her every whim, the ego spun out of control to the point where now, first and foremost, everything she writes is about her. The integrity of the material is sloppy seconds to that.

I don't think I see this shameless kowtowing either. To me, the relationship looks entirely the other way around: the shows she's worked on recently were designed from the ground up to feature a lot of LOLWTF craziness, probably before she was hired as scriptwriter. I doubt a bunch of companies decide to make crazy shows to please one writer who had a very mixed track record prior to hitting it big with AnoHana just a year ago.

Nor do I think Nagai is the only person who can rein her in. If anything, he had the most to lose by losing her since "by the creators of Toradora" was an important part of AnoHana's appeal.
Hanasaku Iroha? Most of the crazy episodes there weren't that far out and it generally felt like the staff misjudged whether they could make it all fit nicely.
Fractale? Yamakan says that some of the more otaku elements were her ideas, but frankly, whenever Yamakan tried to act repentant about having been a "moetard", my bullshit gauge starts spinning. I have trouble seeing him putting up much resistance.
Otome Youkai Zakuro? Having read some bits of Hoshino Lily's manga I feel comfortable saying Okada's version has less "lulz" than the original. It even cuts an early chapter where Zakuro makes Kei dress as a girl.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

You know what? I'd be willing to beat a few dollars that HSI episode 3 is an intentional parody on Okada's part. Hell, might explain how she convinced others to go along - "It's not stupid! We're parodying actual literature!"

You might be right. Apparently, there was an episode in Black Rock Shooter where somebody gets hit by a car (lol @ this overused J/K drama trope) but it was done in a parody manner.

Spoiler for Black Rock Shooter:

One girls' family was gonna move because her dad got a job outside their place of residence and normally this would be sad for the girl's friend. However, the girl's friend chased the girl and then randomly got hit by another car, which made the girl and her mother stay because they felt bad.

Putting BRS aside, since that made me lose my vocal chords due to the level of "wtf/retardness" and many brain cells being lost and whether in both BRS and HSI it was intentional or not in the way episode 3 panned out like it did, it doesn't repute the fact that it caused a drastic change in tone for HSI.

Prior to the episode 3 debacle, it seemed like a perfectly good legitimate coming of age story with a irresponsible mother sending her daughter away to a rather old-school strict "evil" grandmother (not an uncommon plot device for J/K dramas either). However, instead of pursuing that route, episode 3 gave us a lolwut episode, which was completely different to the first two. The episodes after 3, were largely "fluff" (but enjoyable and better than average fluff), until episode 7 whereby we got another lolwut episode (The episode that made 0utf0xzer0 a Tomoe fanboy ). It wasn't until episode 9 it started to be revert back to to its episode 1 and 2 style.

Question to the thread: are buffoonish male characters common in J and K dramas?
Because if so, in light of the parallels people have drama between HSI and J and K drama in the past, I think genre convention is a much more satisfying explanation for Okada's choices here than having man issues. Particularly since there's some evidence that her taste in anime men runs towards characters like Shrade from Aquarion Evol. And I'm pretty sure I've run into buffoonish characters in at least a couple J dramas I've seen.

I can't really say for J-dramas since I've only seen a couple. But in terms of K-dramas, they are usually split into two genres - Saguk (Historical/Fantasy) and Hyundai (Literally means "Modern"... no I'm not referring to the car brand ). Won't focus on Saguk since that's irrelevant for this topic, but for Hyundai type dramas they are split into two main subcategories: Romantic comedies and Melodramas.

For romantic comedies, there is indeed a lot of "buffooning" around, but it tends to be split between both genders. Both males and females are portrayed to be idiots indiscriminately . But since the K-drama audience are overwhelmingly female, they males to be "dorky", "fabulous" and/or often times "dickheads" whilst the female tends to be either "weak-willed" or "tsundere" - pretty much borrows a lot from shojo manga romcom tropes.

For melodramas... well, imagine Ano Hana, replace high school characters with characters in their late 10s or early 20s (sometimes even 30s), remove Menma since she is more or less an "otaku-bait" character and double the amount of scenes where someone is crying on screen and introduce a hospital premise, someone getting hit by a car, and/or someone being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Evil stepmothers are a bonus trope too. But in general, no "buffooning" here. Instead maximize the melodrama cheese. Example here!

Yes, I'm generalizing here, so don't take me 100% seriously .

I wouldn't be surprised at the fact that Okada gets a lot of her drama writing inspiration comes from Asian TV drama, because they sometimes seem very similar in approach. It's frustrating yeh, but I guess it's just personal preference for me in that I rather see TV tropes be used cross-medium than common tropes in the current anime medium be used again. Lesser of the two evils I'd say.


Here's a fun fact. Both True Tears and Anohana (written by Okada) very shortly after their respective Bluray/DVD releases in Japan, was licensed in Korea WITH Korean dubs on them, whilst it took years before the English version of a sub-only version of True Tears to come out on Sentai whilst Ano Hana is still yet to be licensed in English. Coincedence? I'd say no, considering Koreans and their love for drama and anime is a pretty popular "underground" entertainment medium over there, whilst manga (and manwha) is pretty much mainstream.

I actually went and watched the episode just so I could participate in this discussion (otherwise I haven't seen AKB for a couple weeks). My take is no, she's not trolling. It's just a typical LOLWTF comedy episode of AKB (I have to protect my first hater from the DES!) that happens to feature hate mail as a plot element.

Also when Orine was bursting in tears from happiness whilst crying out "My very first hater"!. Not sure if that was supposed to be intentionally melodramatic but I took it the completely wrong way and started laughing at it


Anyways, one thing is for sure for Okada as of late. Her crazy, lulsy, wtf series appear to be the norm these days, when it wasn't the case even about a year or so ago. That's why I personally think she's on "troll/egoflated" mode as of late. Her last "legit good" series that was intended to be "legit good" was Ano Hana, which I already had a few problems with. Hanasaku Iroha came out pretty solid, but I have a feeling Okada intended that to be more "crazy" if it wasn't for some editing by Ando.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

I actually went and watched the episode just so I could participate in this discussion (otherwise I haven't seen AKB for a couple weeks). My take is no, she's not trolling. It's just a typical LOLWTF comedy episode of AKB (I have to protect my first hater from the DES!) that happens to feature hate mail as a plot element.

Yeah after thinking about it, that's kinda what I'm leaning towards now. I guess i was just being a bit paranoid. I wonder if the Japanese Mari Okada "fanbase" resembles anything like the one we have here.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Haak

Yeah after thinking about it, that's kinda what I'm leaning towards now. I guess i was just being a bit paranoid. I wonder if the Japanese Mari Okada "fanbase" resembles anything like the one we have here.

I'll be frank . I donno who it was (I think it was Archon Wing) who started this whole "Okada = troll/man-hating" craze, but on other communities like ANN and MAL, hardly anyone mentioned Mari Okada. And the few people outside of AS that do talk about her tend to criticize her melodrama due to Anohana and Black Rock Shooter. True Tears? They all go "what is that". Toradora? Oh that JC Staff anime. That's the reaction I tend to see anyway.

As for Japan, I have a feeling it might be the same. Writers in general don't get hardly any attention. I mean I don't see Yoshino hate anywhere near as much on other English forums as much as I do here, though there is some on MAL. The only two writers I think that get talked about a lot if I had to pick will be NishioIsin (since Monogatari is massive over there) and Gen Orobuchi (for Madoka and Fate Zero). And also from my memory, Japanese fans care a heck a lot more about VAs than we English fans do based off experience.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Anyways, one thing is for sure for Okada as of late. Her crazy, lulsy, wtf series appear to be the norm these days, when it wasn't the case even about a year or so ago. That's why I personally think she's on "troll/egoflated" mode as of late. Her last "legit good" series that was intended to be "legit good" was Ano Hana, which I already had a few problems with. Hanasaku Iroha came out pretty solid, but I have a feeling Okada intended that to be more "crazy" if it wasn't for some editing by Ando.

I'm skeptical that Ando editted it much for the kind of thing. If one assumes he did, then it raises a very large "WTF why?!" question in regards to the fact he kept episode 3 intact.

And I'm going to reiterate my point on her recent works as well. Look at the show concepts. How many of them were you honestly expecting to be legit good rather than "lulz"? The problem here is at the concept level, not the script level.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I'll be frank . I donno who it was (I think it was Archon Wing) who started this whole "Okada = troll/man-hating" craze, but on other communities like ANN and MAL, hardly anyone mentioned Mari Okada. And the few people outside of AS that do talk about her tend to criticize her melodrama due to Anohana and Black Rock Shooter. True Tears? They all go "what is that". Toradora? Oh that JC Staff anime. That's the reaction I tend to see anyway.

I'm not surprised True Tears isn't well known (though there was a lot of back and forth trolling between Hiromi fans and Noe fans at my anime club during the show's run), but I'd expect far more people to know Toradora, especially online.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

And I'm going to reiterate my point on her recent works as well. Look at the show concepts. How many of them were you honestly expecting to be legit good rather than "lulz"? The problem here is at the concept level, not the script level.

Regardless of whether the premise was intended to be "lulz" or not, Okada still took on the project and it doesn't divert that the fact that "lulz" series is the norm for her these days. Now, that's not necessarily bad, but if she continues to do "lulz" series without doing something "legit good" soon, then she (if not already) is going to be relegated as a writer that should not be taken seriously. She's going to end up as the writer version of Seiji Kishi. She's gonna get ignored from the fact she did "great dramas" in the past like Seiji Kishi directed Kamisama Dolls because the rest of his series were largely comedies or had a lot of silly comedy in them.

I'm not surprised True Tears isn't well known (though there was a lot of back and forth trolling between Hiromi fans and Noe fans at my anime club during the show's run), but I'd expect far more people to know Toradora, especially online.

I was more referring to the fact, that even if series is well-known, the majority of people are going to look at what production studio produced it, maybe who the director is and for a lot of Japanese fans (at least imo) what VAs were used in the cast. I don't think writers, character designers or music composers get much recognition (if any) at a fan level (at an industry level, that's a different thing altogether) unless if you're already super famous like NisioIsin, Kajiara or dat "K-on artist" to name a few.

[Midonin]

What makes one form of goodness any more "legitimate" than another? If a series is meant to be a comedy and succeeds as a comedy, that has just as any right to be called good as a similar series in genre or sci-fi or whatever else. For making so many successful comedies, I respect Seiji Kishi even more. One of my all time favorite directors is Keiichiro Kawaguchi, and that man loves his comedy something fierce.

But that's sort of a tangent from this topic. On the subject of Okada. I haven't seen all of her series. My viewing of AKB0048 is almost completely divorced from the fact that she's writing it, and I like the weird elements. That's the kind of stuff I got into anime for. The kind of stuff that shows the medium at its most fantastical, the potential of what animation can portray.

I distinctly remember being one of the people who praised episode 3 of HanaIro. The moment the series showed it wasn't going to be completely serious, I gained more respect for it, and don't see a problem with her style of comedy. The comedy parts were the parts I paid more attention to. For me, it was a feature, not a bug.

If I'm coming off as somewhat biased towards comedy... yes. Comedy is harder to pull off than drama, I'd argue, and has just as good, if not better, results when it's pulled off. My problem is less with her and more with some of the responses I'm seeing. I don't know how many male writers have been called to attention, but some of the metaphors I'm seeing (such as comparing her writing to torture) are a little unnerving. I don't know if they'd be as intense if Okada was male, so I'm wondering how much of that might be influencing things. Even if people do say they're joking, there seems to be some vitriol beneath some of the comments.

That post went off in several directions, but the baseline of it is, I'm not sure where the problems are coming from, and I'd be willing to argue some of the more controversial parts, because those are the parts that keep me hooked to her series in the first place. Oddly, for me, the less serious something is, the more invested I am and the more I have to say on it.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Midonin

What makes one form of goodness any more "legitimate" than another? If a series is meant to be a comedy and succeeds as a comedy, that has just as any right to be called good as a similar series in genre or sci-fi or whatever else. For making so many successful comedies, I respect Seiji Kishi even more. One of my all time favorite directors is Keiichiro Kawaguchi, and that man loves his comedy something fierce.

If it was intended to be a comedy from the start, then sure. Hence, when it comes to specifically Seiji Kishi, I don't blame him for Seto no Hayanome or Baka Test, since the purpose and intention of both series was to be comedy. But Angel Beats and Persona 4... Angel Beats like many Key predecessors before it has the same problem of jumping between exaggerated slapstick moments and melodrama moments. Persona 4 was just... really immature and juvenile.

But that's sort of a tangent from this topic. On the subject of Okada. I haven't seen all of her series. My viewing of AKB0048 is almost completely divorced from the fact that she's writing it, and I like the weird elements. That's the kind of stuff I got into anime for. The kind of stuff that shows the medium at its most fantastical, the potential of what animation can portray.

Perhaps you can be divorced from it, but a lot of people can't because, stuff like AKB0048 is EXACTLY the kind of stuff Okada has been doing as of late. She clearly has the potential to script or adapt something perfectly good (shown by True Tears, Toradora, Ano Hana, Wandering Son the good sections of Iroha), but decides to do these rather "lulzy", "troll", "wtf" series either because she enjoys doing them and/or because there is a large market for them.

I distinctly remember being one of the people who praised episode 3 of HanaIro. The moment the series showed it wasn't going to be completely serious, I gained more respect for it, and don't see a problem with her style of comedy. The comedy parts were the parts I paid more attention to. For me, it was a feature, not a bug.

The problem as mentioned many times before in both this thread and in the Iroha thread back when the series was airing, is the sudden shift from a relatively serious coming of age drama to this nonsensical emasculation in the character of Jiromaru. If Iroha started off and intended to be a silly comedy from the start, then no problems. But despite, the overall series being solid and personally I liked it a lot, I can't take away the fact that I felt were several episodes that were completely out of place, with episode 3, 7 and 17 being three examples. Lighthearted moments and comedy is fine within a threshold even for the most dramatic of series, but cross that line and it's hard to take seriously. It's the same reason why I couldn't get into the first season of Clannad or the entirety of Angel Beats, because I no idea what it wanted to be.

If I'm coming off as somewhat biased towards comedy... yes. Comedy is harder to pull off than drama, I'd argue, and has just as good, if not better, results when it's pulled off.

I would argue that slapstick comedy is just as easy as to pull off as melodrama. But comedy that uses a brain using deadpan, satire, black, parody etc. is as hard as to pull off subtle genuine drama. Unfortunately in anime, slapstick comedy and melodrama are the most common forms and they are both equally kinda stale to me. There's been some excellent subtle, genuine dramas in anime (e.g. Cross Game, Usagi Drop), and likewise for comedy (Tatami Galaxy comes into mind). However, the satiric and parodic comedies I've seen in anime tend to be in-house otaku references which tend to get very old.

My problem is less with her and more with some of the responses I'm seeing. I don't know how many male writers have been called to attention, but some of the metaphors I'm seeing (such as comparing her writing to torture) are a little unnerving. I don't know if they'd be as intense if Okada was male, so I'm wondering how much of that might be influencing things. Even if people do say they're joking, there seems to be some vitriol beneath some of the comments.

Sexism has absolutely nothing to do with criticisms of Okada and to put it bluntly I have no idea why you decided to even bring it up. It's the fact that in some people's eyes, she's developed a reputation and I know it did for me. Her work on True Tears is the reason why I started to adore her because it's among the best slice of life/romances I've seen in the TV medium. Way better than that fad Clannad Season 1 that was airing around the same time and roughly if not better in the same tier of ef tale of memories which was also airing around the same time. Then Okada hooked up with director Tatsuyuki Nagai to produce Toradora, which was actually pretty good for a romcom! Yeh, it might be the source, but the fact it's was produced from the infamous JC Staff who is notorious for butchering great source material, particularily LNs which Toradora is one, I think credit should be given to both of the above named staff. Then that same duo staff created Ano Hana, which in many people's eyes (despite a few personal problems with it) was still a work of art.

Okada's emasculation of men or her crazy ideas of fanservice or asspull plot twists that are literally "trolls" aren't frankly clever comedy or good writing. Sure, they might be funny (heck I do too for some of them like the latest AKB0048 ep where it was an episode about haters), but it's been a constantly repeated pattern of hers as of late and people are starting to get sick of it.

That post went off in several directions, but the baseline of it is, I'm not sure where the problems are coming from, and I'd be willing to argue some of the more controversial parts, because those are the parts that keep me hooked to her series in the first place. Oddly, for me, the less serious something is, the more invested I am and the more I have to say on it.

Then you have a preference of controversial and more light hearted series, like I have preference of consistent solid writing and premise that relies less on gags, trolls or asspulls. Of course, that doesn't mean I can't enjoy a good relaxing lighthearted series now and then, but constantly do something for "luls" and your creditability falls. There's a reason why some people on AS forums moan everytime Okada's name is mentioned on the production list... and despite me being a fan of her (more so in the past), I can perfectly understand why.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

I'll be frank . I donno who it was (I think it was Archon Wing) who started this whole "Okada = troll/man-hating" craze, but on other communities like ANN and MAL, hardly anyone mentioned Mari Okada. And the few people outside of AS that do talk about her tend to criticize her melodrama due to Anohana and Black Rock Shooter. True Tears? They all go "what is that". Toradora? Oh that JC Staff anime. That's the reaction I tend to see anyway.

I never started the troll thing. She was trolling since True Trolls (I mean Tears). Although I did mention the crossdressing thing a lot. The whole man-hating thing was more Hana Saku Iroha specific, but since you already have Yuki Kaji as a love intrest in there, it kinda writes itself. Also, I guess failure male characters are common in anime anyways.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

For melodramas... well, imagine Ano Hana, replace high school characters with characters in their late 10s or early 20s (sometimes even 30s), remove Menma since she is more or less an "otaku-bait" character and double the amount of scenes where someone is crying on screen and introduce a hospital premise, someone getting hit by a car, and/or someone being diagnosed with a terminal illness. Evil stepmothers are a bonus trope too. But in general, no "buffooning" here. Instead maximize the melodrama cheese. Example here!

Yes, I'm generalizing here, so don't take me 100% seriously .

Grats, you've summarized Key Visual Arts for us. But everyone says Okada would fit in well since AnoHana.

Also when Orine was bursting in tears from happiness whilst crying out "My very first hater"!. Not sure if that was supposed to be intentionally melodramatic but I took it the completely wrong way and started laughing at it

She obviously reads internet forums and searches for fanclubs of her. And probably this thread. Nah, it would take a pretty egotistical douchebag to search for yourself. Wait..,

Anyways, one thing is for sure for Okada as of late. Her crazy, lulsy, wtf series appear to be the norm these days, when it wasn't the case even about a year or so ago. That's why I personally think she's on "troll/egoflated" mode as of late. Her last "legit good" series that was intended to be "legit good" was Ano Hana, which I already had a few problems with. Hanasaku Iroha came out pretty solid, but I have a feeling Okada intended that to be more "crazy" if it wasn't for some editing by Ando.

Well, to be fair, BRS simply isn't gonna be good regardless of who writes it because there was just too little to go with. And I haven't seen AKB, but it's an uphill struggle you know.

On the other hand, she's been able to make lemonade out of lemons. Does anyone know what the True Tears VN is about? Neither do I.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

is the sudden shift from a relatively serious coming of age drama to this nonsensical emasculation in the character of Jiromaru. But despite, the overall series being solid and personally I liked it a lot, I can't take away the fact that I felt were several episodes that were completely out of place, with episode 3, 7 and 17 being three examples.

I actually sympathize with Jiromaru. Having writer's block (and also being a bit of a pervert, admittedly) is something that I can completely understand. I also think the whole concept of masculinity, being so nebulously defined and impossible to achieve, is also kind of stupid, so I don't see why that's a minus, exactly. It's not like Jiromaru ever gave up trying to achieve his goals. The guy did create a movie script in a relatively short amount of time, and that takes dedication and creativity. And the episodes you listed were some of my favorite ones. Movies, roleplayers, writers... people in the creative field. I like seeing them in any medium.

While I have a vague idea of what "trolling" might be, I'm not very fond of the word, and even several years later, have no idea how to recognize it (not that I have a desire to look for it in the first place). A bit of misdirection is part of what being a writer is about.

I fancy myself as a fairly smart person, but I can also say I enjoy some dumb stuff. But just because it's dumb on the exterior doesn't mean there can't be some flashes of brilliance beneath it. I end up watching more of the "otaku"-focused series than some of the more mainstream successes, so my profile hasn't brought me into contact with Okada that often, but from where I stand, I don't really see these complaints as complaints. A writer with a strong voice that can produce good comedy and drama - and I've overall enjoyed what I've seen.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Midonin

What makes one form of goodness any more "legitimate" than another?

I don't think it's about legitimacy so much as it's about rarity.

Anime-style comedy is rather common in anime, as one would expect. If that's what a viewer goes for, there's no shortage of it, really. When people accuse something of being "a dime a dozen", they're not necessarily saying that it's bad, period. They're saying that it's so common-place that the worth of each individual instance of it is reduced significantly. Honestly, that's how I feel about anime-style comedy.

But serious drama, especially one involving complex plots, can be hard to find in anime. The fact that True Tears is still considered by some of us as the pinnacle of anime romance drama says a lot, in my opinion. It means that no anime romance drama since then has appealed to us as much as True Tears has, or we'd reference the more recent work instead when we point to what we consider good anime romance drama. True Tears isn't all that recent any more.

So it should come as no surprise that some of us, like Demi Soda and myself, would like to see Okada do more works like True Tears. They're harder to find, in my experience, than the more Comedic-based properties that Okada has recently worked on.

If I'm coming off as somewhat biased towards comedy... yes. Comedy is harder to pull off than drama, I'd argue, and has just as good, if not better, results when it's pulled off.

I think it's harder to insert a little bit of comedy into a mostly serious show than it is to insert a little bit of drama into a mostly comedic show. Here is one area where comedy is harder than drama: In getting it to fit well in a place where it wasn't really there before.

But I think that a comedy show (as in a show with "Comedy" as its primary genre, a show all about the comedy) is easier to write than a Drama show (as in a show with "Drama" as its primary genre, a show all about the drama). A big part of the reason why I write that is I find with comedy shows, as long as half the gags/jokes work, the audience is satisfied. I include myself in this - If an anime Comedy show gets to me to laugh at a half, or even sometimes just a quarter, of its gags/jokes, then I tend to be satisfied. Put another way, half or more of the gags/jokes can fall flat, and the Comedy show can still get away with it as long as the rest is funny.

But if half or more of the drama doesn't come off well in a Drama show that can ruin the show completely. Viewers tend to be pickier with Drama, in my experience. I mean, I've seen Code Geass and various Gundam shows picked apart in ways I've never seen a Nichijou or a Ben-To picked apart.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I don't think it's about legitimacy so much as it's about rarity.

Anime-style comedy is rather common in anime, as one would expect. If that's what a viewer goes for, there's no shortage of it, really. When people accuse something of being "a dime a dozen", they're not necessarily saying that it's bad, period. They're saying that it's so common-place that the worth of each individual instance of it is reduced significantly. Honestly, that's how I feel about anime-style comedy.

Exactly.

For every Usagi Drop (In before someone mentions the ending), we get 100 incest-themed series about a sister wanting to bone her brother (bonus if it's non-blood related) or a parent who is trying to overcome his desire to bone his/her own children. Now from a anime/manga point of view, I'm come to terms with tolerating it even though I despise it.

Isn't exactly the case for the rest of the world however...

Now I know some incest themed stories are legit good like Kare Kano and heck even True Tears briefly touched on it, but this isn't the case for the vast majority of stories.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

The problem as mentioned many times before in both this thread and in the Iroha thread back when the series was airing, is the sudden shift from a relatively serious coming of age drama to this nonsensical emasculation literature parody in the character of Jiromaru.

Fixed. Though to be fair, based on the summaries I've seen of the novel in question Okada's version enschews most of what gave the original novel literary value in the first place in favour of a simpler aesop.

I would argue that slapstick comedy is just as easy as to pull off as melodrama. But comedy that uses a brain using deadpan, satire, black, parody etc. is as hard as to pull off subtle genuine drama. Unfortunately in anime, slapstick comedy and melodrama are the most common forms and they are both equally kinda stale to me. There's been some excellent subtle, genuine dramas in anime (e.g. Cross Game, Usagi Drop), and likewise for comedy (Tatami Galaxy comes into mind). However, the satiric and parodic comedies I've seen in anime tend to be in-house otaku references which tend to get very old.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

The whole man-hating thing was more Hana Saku Iroha specific, but since you already have Yuki Kaji as a love intrest in there, it kinda writes itself.

On the other hand, it's one of a tiny, tiny number of seinen anime with the balls to challenge the industry's self enforced rule that you can't give the girls romantic interests in a "four girl (+1 woman) band" anime.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Grats, you've summarized Key Visual Arts for us. But everyone says Okada would fit in well since AnoHana.

AnoHana's genius is pretty much that it did capture a lot of what made people like Key's stuff in the first place. And unlike KyoAni's work, the endings didn't get somewhat "lost in adaptation" (at least, I feel that way about KyoAni's Key adaptations).

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

On the other hand, she's been able to make lemonade out of lemons. Does anyone know what the True Tears VN is about? Neither do I.

from Insani.org's synopsis for the demo that got translated in 2006:

Dreams, hopes, and aspirations ... are things that all people draw their visions of what the "future" may hold for them. Some are pastel-colored; others are darker in hue; still others shine radiant and unblemished like the hands of the rain.

What are my dreams? What are my hopes? What do I aspire to become? These are questions that the characters of this story ask themselves. But must all of them turn at last to weeping? Must they all harbor such darkness under the shadow of the wings of their hearts? Some of them carry the wounds of the past with them still, the burden causing them to lose sight of their dreams. Others see insurmountable walls between them and the things they dream of, causing them to walk away and give up. And still others -- worst of all -- have forgotten what it is to dream altogether.

And so they smile, smile warmly and widely, in order to hide away the darkness and pain in their hearts ... in order to shut out the future itself.

But the moment a girl should step forth and say "no more" -- that is the beginning and the end.

This is a season of true tears. Can you feel their hands as they rain down upon you?

Reminds me of this:
http://megatokyo.com/strip/579
Anyway, I would bet that you can't make it as far as into the demo as I did but I couldn't summon the willpower to take a good crack at it.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

On the other hand, it's one of a tiny, tiny number of seinen anime with the balls to challenge the industry's self enforced rule that you can't give the girls romantic interests in a "four girl (+1 woman) band" anime.

Ah, though that's such a low fence to climb.

However,

This is technically the only anime that involves a four girl band (Ohana, Minko, Nako, ??Yuina??, and Tomoe) that I've actually finished. So that says something in my books. Well, actually there might be more, but since I can't remember, my point still stands.

AnoHana's genius is pretty much that it did capture a lot of what made people like Key's stuff in the first place. And unlike KyoAni's work, the endings didn't get somewhat "lost in adaptation" (at least, I feel that way about KyoAni's Key adaptations).

And it worked well. Perhaps Key can hire her to make their stuff less stale.

from Insani.org's synopsis for the demo that got translated in 2006:

After reading that, I think most of us are happy with Noe and Hiromi. But who knows, they could be like the Lost Levels.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah, though that's such a low fence to climb.

...And it's climbed with shocking irregularity regardless, unforunately.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

After reading that, I think most of us are happy with Noe and Hiromi.

Tell that to Totoum.

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

But who knows, they could be like the Lost Levels.

Go look at the screenshots:
http://insani.org/truetears.html

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Ah, though that's such a low fence to climb.

However,

This is technically the only anime that involves a four girl band (Ohana, Minko, Nako, ??Yuina??, and Tomoe) that I've actually finished. So that says something in my books. Well, actually there might be more, but since I can't remember, my point still stands.

Who the hell is she?

And it worked well. Perhaps Key can hire her to make their stuff less stale.

For the love of god, no. I rather Jun Maeda shenanigans over hers.



IIRC the draft concept art of Hiromi and Noe were quite... different from what we actually got. Noe actually had long hair and Hiromi had short hair. SO GLAD Hiromi's draft character design wasn't the final product.

EDIT: Here was the thread.
EDIT2: Noe's image link is broken. This is what prototype Noe looked like. I'm going to say this... prototype Noe looks helluva lot better than the final product.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0

...And it's climbed with shocking irregularity regardless, unforunately.

Which explains my lack of interest in that genre usually. But as I've said, Okada's better works tend to avoid fitting too far into archtypes, and even if they do, tend to have a bit more flavor and personality even if she decides to put her own oddities in it.

Tell that to Totoum.

I don't get it.

Go look at the screenshots:
http://insani.org/truetears.html

Yea, I think I'll pass.

Originally Posted by DemiSoda

Who the hell is she?

She's kinda like Misato from Evangelion, being the older woman that has to deal with gender expectations in Japanese society, facing her age yet being incredibly hawt at the same time. Of course, none of this actually mattered so no wonder why you don't remember, being placed in the typical Okada plot cul-de-sac but Iroha's character designs quite helped for her looks, don't you say?

For the love of god, no. I rather Jun Maeda shenanigans over hers.

I'm shocked. Okada's sense of humor seems more suited towards you as opposed to Key's regular brand of comedy. She tends to have that tongue in cheek attitude, when she's not writing bad pervy stuff that erotic fanfic readers would reject.

IIRC the draft concept art of Hiromi and Noe were quite... different from what we actually got. Noe actually had long hair and Hiromi had short hair. SO GLAD Hiromi's draft character design wasn't the final product.

EDIT: Here was the thread.
EDIT2: Noe's image link is broken. This is what prototype Noe looked like. I'm going to say this... prototype Noe looks helluva lot better than the final product.

O_O Proto-Noe looks like what would happen if Hiromi and Noe merged and became an archon. That one with the shorter shorts and the coat looks fantastic. Obviously she had to get nerfed for better balance and... well I can't say anything else that would be a spoiler.

However, I do understand why Noe looks so much different. While Proto-Noe looks very beautiful, it doesn't suit the personality that we know as Noe Isurugi. Noe isn't supposed to be pretty in the conventional sense; no it doesn't mean she looks bad by any means. Her appearance is supposed to reflect her eccentricity. So while having long hair and looking feminine surely is visually appealing, the shorter hair gives her kind of a more tomboyish, playful, and younger look. So, while the old design makes her look far hawter, the design we all know and love (at least half you guys) makes her character stand out as more unique. She's supposed to give up the impression that she's crazy and unpredictable while still being cute and such. And that's also why everyone that's watched the show remember her personality and mannerism. It all goes together.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

I don't get it.

Like so many people you talk about True Tears without even mentioning the best of the girls

[Triple_R]

Proto-Noe looks great... probably too great. An anime character looking like that would have guys flocking around her, no matter how eccentric she is (and if Noe was super-popular with the guys that really would throw a wrench into True Tear's plot, for reasons that should be obvious to anybody who's watched all of it). Proto-Noe also violently reminds me of another anime character, although I can't place the name for that character.

I also saw short-hair Hiromi... Proto-Noe and short-haired Hiromi would have really changed the feel of True Tears, imo.