Fate/Zero - Episode 21 Discussion / Poll

[zRyuu]

Originally Posted by Justice Knight

can any1 explain what does the invisible air bike do? similar to Trans-am??

It reduced air resistance to zero.

[HomuHomu92]

The whole scene with Kariya and Aoi was so heartbreaking. I know that Aoi was upset about Tokiomi´s death, but the fact that she blamed it all on Kariya was too much. The saddest thing is that Aoi and Sakura are completely unaware of Kariya's anguish and all he went through.

I don´t know if to blame Tokiomi or Kariya. In TV Tropes, it comes with an interesting observation:

Spoiler for fz:

After all Tokiomi hands over Sakura to the Matous to protect her from having to go through hell because of her immense magical potential, but might have misunderstood the nature of the Matou family and its head and thus really has no idea exactly what Zouken is doing to her. And TVTropes comes with an irony: It is ultimately Kariya's own fault that Sakura was given to the Matou; had Kariya not ran away, become a magus, and gotten over Aoi, he could have extended the Matou line and Zouken would have no need for Sakura.

Ah, Byakuya....I don´t feel sorry for him and the fact Kiritsugu shoot him. After all

Spoiler for fz:

he despises Kariya for a stupid reason and he is a horrible father to Shinji in the flashback in Heaven Feel.

[mAc Chaos]

It's a stretch to blame Kariya for Sakura being taken away though. Tokiomi was the one who accepted the offer.

[Nightengale]

The blame for the escalation of everything that happened cannot really be put in one basket or person. Everyone involved had a part in it, but they didn't do it with malice or bad intentions. ( except Zouken, but he's beside the point )

Kariya had no way of knowing his refusal would've caused a butterfly effect of Sakura becoming his successor.

Tokiomi did what he did believing it to be for the best of his daughter's well-being as a father, but also that of an atypical magus.

Aoi chose to be a 'good wife' and do what was expected of her.

In the end, all of them isolated themselves from choices they made and it simply crumbled on top of each other.

[Pocari_Sweat]

First lancer is being suffering, then Kiritsugu and now Kariya. Oh, Urobuchi you. You really must love making your characters suffer.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Absolutely. Even Kiritsugu's tragedy has nothing on what happened to Kariya.

This series is downright depressing. Now I need to go watch something cornily happily. Amagami sounds just right............

Try Achii Kochii.

[rxrx]

Sincerly though, the only one that had pure intention for entering the war is Kiritsugu. Ironic as the methods he used is neither pure nor good. Remember one thing though, in Gen's world, the more pure your intentions are, the more you suffer.

[mAc Chaos]

Nevermind, probably wrote something too spoilerish for this thread ;o

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Try Achii Kochii.

I would have suggested Danshi Koukousei no Nichijou. He can then pretend that Yoshitake is Gilgamesh when not trolling Servants and Masters.

[jeroz]

or watch Persona 4 and see Kanji being Kanji.

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The blame for the escalation of everything that happened cannot really be put in one basket or person. Everyone involved had a part in it, but they didn't do it with malice or bad intentions. ( except Zouken, but he's beside the point )

Kariya had no way of knowing his refusal would've caused a butterfly effect of Sakura becoming his successor.

Tokiomi did what he did believing it to be for the best of his daughter's well-being as a father, but also that of an atypical magus.

Aoi chose to be a 'good wife' and do what was expected of her.

In the end, all of them isolated themselves from choices they made and it simply crumbled on top of each other.

All comes down to Aoi's womb being too bountiful, if you know what I mean

[Thess]

Originally Posted by HomuHomu92

The whole scene with Kariya and Aoi was so heartbreaking. I know that Aoi was upset about Tokiomi´s death, but the fact that she blamed it all on Kariya was too much. The saddest thing is that Aoi and Sakura are completely unaware of Kariya's anguish and all he went through.

I don´t know if to blame Tokiomi or Kariya. In TV Tropes, it comes with an interesting observation:

Spoiler for fz:

After all Tokiomi hands over Sakura to the Matous to protect her from having to go through hell because of her immense magical potential, but might have misunderstood the nature of the Matou family and its head and thus really has no idea exactly what Zouken is doing to her. And TVTropes comes with an irony: It is ultimately Kariya's own fault that Sakura was given to the Matou; had Kariya not ran away, become a magus, and gotten over Aoi, he could have extended the Matou line and Zouken would have no need for Sakura.

TV tropes forget that Kariya ran away before the girls were even born. Yeah, sure, bad of him for not jumping on the wormfood train! Or not wanting to subject his would be children into that lifestyle! What a horrible, irresponsible man. Who wouldn't like his children become grandpa Zouken's new chewtoy? Tsk. Why not say that it was Aoi's fault for her womb was too 'bountiful' as Tokiomi explains. Why couldn't Tokiomi wear a condom? Let's keep up with equally stupid excuses.

Zouken didn't demand a child from Tokiomi. It was Tokiomi who practically shoved her to his direction with Aoi's blessings. If it hadn't been Zouken, it would be another. This was going to happen anyway.

Ultimately, giving away Sakura was her parents' choice, blaming Kariya is stupid. Since he was out the loop? If they had called him and he had refused to say a thing, you can blame him. But guess what? They never did.

Ultimately, the one who tortured Sakura was Zouken, blaming any of the three of them for this unsavory outcome is also stupid.

[brandon279]

the blame goes to Tohsaka, he gave away his daughter to Zouken to be mage without asking about the nature of his magic.

Aoi acted as any other loving wife, Karyia acted as any suffering and dying person.

In Aoi's mind: Karyia returned to kill my husband and take the grail

In Karyia's Mind: what ungrateful bitch, i did, sacrificed and suffered everything for her and her daughter, then she accuses me of what?

Kiri was good scriptwriter

=========
can saber use excalibure more than once in single battle?

if she cant, then it was wise for her to retreat before Rider uses his army against her.

[Justice Knight]

Originally Posted by brandon279

=========
can saber use excalibure more than once in single battle?

if she cant, then it was wise for her to retreat before Rider uses his army against her.

i nvr seen her using more than once before.Saber was searching for Iri and since she knew she wasnt there after using excalibur she had to retreat and find her asap. Rider didnt counter attack since he doesnt know what other tricks saber had and also the reason for attacking him.

[Kirarakim]

Originally Posted by mAc Chaos

Well, I think the anime didn't do Rider's stand there as much justice as they could have. In the novel, he basically acknowledges it's a huge risk, but his chariot is so fast that he has a real chance of taking down Saber.

So it's not like he just made a suicide blitz and gave up. Saber was in legitimate danger, and it was only at the last second that he decided to bail out and sacrifice the chariot because it would have endangered Waver to push any farther. He sacrificed the victory to save Waver's life.

This scene sounds much better, too bad the anime didn't depict it that way. Well Rider & Waver are by far my favorite team. Too bad they probably won't be around for much longer.

As for the rest I feel like more of an outside observer not really getting emotionally involved...and this is the same with Kariya. Urobuchi sure likes torturing his characters and showing us there is no good in wanting to help others.

[Kanon]

Saber and Rider's contest was not quite as epic as I had pictured it in my mind. It was still pretty awesome in any case. The invisible air bike looked really cool.

The "play" Kotomine staged was sick, and probably went beyond his expectations (I'm not sure he predicted Kariya would kill Aoi). He succeeded in utterly breaking Kariya. I wonder if Zouken was watching the scene from somewhere... if so, he must have been very pleased.

Kirei and Zouken's small exchange was interesting and made me wish for a HF anime more than ever. It would be so amazing if Ufutable did it next... this route would make for a perfect "sequel" to Fate/Zero.

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

The blame for the escalation of everything that happened cannot really be put in one basket or person. Everyone involved had a part in it, but they didn't do it with malice or bad intentions. ( except Zouken, but he's beside the point )

Kariya had no way of knowing his refusal would've caused a butterfly effect of Sakura becoming his successor.

Tokiomi did what he did believing it to be for the best of his daughter's well-being as a father, but also that of an atypical magus.

Aoi chose to be a 'good wife' and do what was expected of her.

In the end, all of them isolated themselves from choices they made and it simply crumbled on top of each other.

Agreed. Nobody was a bad guy. They were all doing what they thought was the best but due to jealousy, lack of understanding on both sides and manipulation by others, everyone got screwed(no pun intended Aoi ) big time.

PS:The Saber motorcycle scenes were awesome!

[blakstealth]

OHHHHH MYYYYYYYY FUCKIN GOD NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ;__;

It's been so long since we've seen her, yet the scene was so tragic.

[Awrya]

Originally Posted by Kanon

Saber and Rider's contest was not quite as epic as I had pictured it in my mind. It was still pretty awesome in any case. The invisible air bike looked really cool.

I'd imagine the bike 'mutate', eg. burst open with the prana then filling and reinforcing the bike. The scene was a bit lacking for me.

I'm pretty sure she used invisible air to give the bike an additional 'push' , not to reinforce the bike with invisible air itself if that's what you mean.

[klare]

what an eps, was amazed by the bike vs chariot scene and despaired by the church scene, Kariya lost nearly everything...

have a feeling that Rider gonna shop for a bike soon

[taichi-kun]

In the past, were kariya and aoi a couple? or just friends? I remember reading the word "sweetheart"(from aoi to kariya ) in the novel.