F/SN UBW TV - Episode 20 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Levani

What's the problem with this exactly?



He chants it and just stands there. I think he can squeeze out power if he isn't fighting. Plus, in the VN, he is somehow alive at the end to even chant Rho Aias so... Archer, he does this kind of stuff xD

Originally Posted by Klashikari

A Master doesn't receive any extra command spells, regardless the number of contracts they have performed with Servants.
There isn't any indication how many UBW Archer can deploy before being dry, but he already deployed it once after Rin has made her contract with Saber.

During his fight against Shirou, he was already subject to symptoms that he is already running out of mana.

And that part with Archer saving Shirou with Rho Aias is something I consider as a giant plot convenience back in the VN.

WARNING: lots of maths ahead

WARNING 2: I have forgotten so much details about F/SN since the last time I read the VN is like, 5+ years ago. Take things I say below with a bag of salt.

Once you ahave deployed your reality marble, you are the God within. It is your world, after all. Tracing weapons in UBW costs no to little mana, since you are not actually tracing them, merely pulling them out from the ground.

Deploying UBW costs both a base amount of mana and a constant supply of mana to maintain it. According to the VN, Shirou is unable to deploy UBW onto the world before his "linkage" with Rin. Seeing how Shirou's mana cap is at 27(he has 27 magic circuits each with 1 unit worth of mana), we can assume UBW will cost no less than 27 mana to deploy initially.

However, in heaven's feel(no spoilers ahead) it is also explained having an extra mana source (like linkage to Rin or the sword of backstabbing) will not make your magic capabilities greater. If your mana cap is 25, you cannot cast spells that costs more mana than 27. Shirou can deploy UBW, so we can assume UBW costs no more than 27 mana to deploy initially.

So UBW costs 27 mana initially to deploy, it's the maintenance that costs a constant supply of mana. Now, the question is on how much mana Archer has.

We need to work backwards here. According to Archer, he will be completely depleted and disappear from the world if he unleashes Excalibeam. So, Archer is confirmed to have (27+Excalibeam) amount of mana.

How much mana Excalibeam costs? According to Rin, that is twice as much mana as she has. So archer has (25+2xRin's mana cap)amount of mana.

How much mana Rin has! According to herself, she has 20x the amount of magic circuits than Shirou. And Shirou has 27 mana. So substitute that figure in we will fin out that Archer has (25+2x25x20) =1025.

So Archer's total mana cap is slightly above 1025.

The next question is, up till episode 20, how much mana does Archer has?

Now, let's assume Archer is at full mana prior to his betrayal and work from there. Since Archer has his cloak of denial, he does not consume too much mana to exist so we'll count it as negligible. In his fight against Lancer, he has done the following actions with the following mana cost(bold costs are confirmed)
Traced twin swords: -10mana (the cost to take weapons out when UBW is not deployed.
Traced Rho Auas: -4x10 mana (it takes 4 times the mana to trace non swords)
Backstab caster -10mana x however many swords there, max 18
Make cool looking cage for Rin -10mana x 18(max)
Traced twin swords to fight Shirou/Saber -10mana
Deploy UBW to threaten Saber -27 mana.

So, the above would add up to 117 mana minimum to an upwards of 447mana. Archer should then still have 578 mana left over.

Conclusion: Archer is a big fat liar.

EDIT: Tracing swords costs 10 mana. Source: VN Day twelve, conversation with Tohsaka

[Shyni]

Originally Posted by ShadowSamurai365

I know I'm asking a dumb question, but there's something that I like to clarify with posters of this thread: Do you guys hate heroes, or do you like them?

If I hated them I wouldn't be watching this show.

[quigonkenny]

Originally Posted by Haak

When did he use one to bring her to school?

Originally Posted by GDB

When Rider was ZA WARUDO face melting everyone.

Haak, how could you forget one of the nicest bits of animation in the whole series?

Originally Posted by iamandragon

WARNING: lots of maths ahead

--LOTS OF MATHS--

And that's assuming Archer didn't top himself off between healing post-Rho Aias and backstabbing Caster. Good post.

[Rising Dragon]

Not to poke holes in theories or anything, but... I think what Archer was referring to in his holy sword talk was rather a combination of his original statements and his retconned capabilities with Tracing. 'cause the retcon is that he can't Trace Excalibur. The anime's dialogue seemed to imply that the Tracing of Excalibur would be what would kill him, rather than draining himself dry with the Excaliblast... but that he would be able to Trace and wield it properly against the real Excalibur before that tracing DOES kill him.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

Haak, how could you forget one of the nicest bits of animation in the whole series?

Probably because for me everything in this show has become "one of the nicest bits of animation" level. My pathetic eyes just can not comprehend what I'm seeing before me.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by steam fish

can anyone using reinforcement/projection use unlimited blade works? i also read that since projected weapons come from unlimited blade works if anyone could use it

Projection magecraft is just projection magecraft, that has nothing to do with UBW. UBW is the source of Shirou's tracing ability.

[TwilightsCall]

There's a couple of fatal assumptions in your math bit up there.

First of all, I have no idea how you got a number for magic circuits Shirou has. But even beyond that, as we learn in HF, the amount of magic circuits determines only how much you can USE at any given time, not how much CAPACITY you have. So using that as a basis to find Archer's capacity doesn't work.

Also, as RD said, I was under the assumption as well that tracing Excalibur would be the killer, he never mentions anything about Excaliblasting. HF also muddles the waters here, but in the interest of avoiding HF spoilers I won't say more than that for now.

Thirdly, you assume it costs Shirou and Archer the same amount of mana to deploy their respective Reality Marbles. And that it would cost the same amount of mana fr Saber to fire an excaliblast from the real Excalibur as it would for Archer to fire one from a traced, weaker Excalibur. Not impossible, but no evidence really exists to point either way.

There is more I could nit pick at, but my phone is dying so I'll leave it at that for now. That being said, while I think your numbers are off, I think your conclusion that Archer is a big fat liar is spot on - just, for other reasons :P

[Geburah]

When Rin uses her maximun output with the Jeweled Sword the text say that those atacks are comparable to Excaliblasts.

Rin maximun output is 1000 and base prana is 500. Saber has 1200-1300 prana units so its easy to see why she cant use it more than once at full power, then we can say that one Excaliblast is around 1k prana cost wise.

Shirou has 20-30 prana units but we dont know his maximum output, and we can be certain that UBW deployment + sustain if far more expensive than 30 prana. When Shirou was using it Rin was complaining that Shirou was draining her prana reserves HARD, and thats coming from a 500 prana magus

Also Archer CANT trace Excalibur but he can trace a similar weapon with a similar active effect. Tracing it is not the problem (its quite cheap in fact thats why he can use swordspam) but using it as NP since it will probably drain tons of prana to get close to Excalibur's output. Only on Moon Cell, he is able to trace Excalibur Image since tracing got a boost there.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

WARNING: lots of maths ahead

...

Conclusion: Archer is a big fat liar.

It really doesn't matter. Not only magic circuits doesn't represent the mana capacity of an individual as TwilightsCall mentioned, but the series itself has shown Archer disappearing already. Saber explicitely stated he is out of mana, so Archer is already at his limit just for barely existing and moving around.

This will make his intervention later on even more ridiculous than it already was in the VN.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It really doesn't matter. Not only magic circuits doesn't represent the mana capacity of an individual as TwilightsCall mentioned, but the series itself has shown Archer disappearing already. Saber explicitely stated he is out of mana, so Archer is already at his limit just for barely existing and moving around.

This will make his intervention later on even more ridiculous than it already was in the VN.

Can someone retranslate Saber's line? Depending on what she actually notices the result can make more or less sense. For example if it's actually supposed to be "Archer is losing mana", then it's just refering to Archer's anchor missing and not to his lack of mana.

I don't trust the translation that initially used "Steel is my body" as Shirou's come-back line.

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

Can someone retranslate Saber's line? Depending on what she actually notices the result can make more or less sense. For example if it's actually supposed to be "Archer is losing mana", then it's just refering to Archer's anchor missing and not to his lack of mana.

I don't trust the translation that initially used "Steel is my body" as Shirou's come-back line.

Using the VN as reference I think that she meant to say that Archer existance as a non anchored servant was reaching its limits, and thats the reason why his body started to dissapear if he lost focus, aka his Independent Action was almost over

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

There's a couple of fatal assumptions in your math bit up there.

First of all, I have no idea how you got a number for magic circuits Shirou has. But even beyond that, as we learn in HF, the amount of magic circuits determines only how much you can USE at any given time, not how much CAPACITY you have. So using that as a basis to find Archer's capacity doesn't work.

Also, as RD said, I was under the assumption as well that tracing Excalibur would be the killer, he never mentions anything about Excaliblasting. HF also muddles the waters here, but in the interest of avoiding HF spoilers I won't say more than that for now.

Thirdly, you assume it costs Shirou and Archer the same amount of mana to deploy their respective Reality Marbles. And that it would cost the same amount of mana fr Saber to fire an excaliblast from the real Excalibur as it would for Archer to fire one from a traced, weaker Excalibur. Not impossible, but no evidence really exists to point either way.

There is more I could nit pick at, but my phone is dying so I'll leave it at that for now. That being said, while I think your numbers are off, I think your conclusion that Archer is a big fat liar is spot on - just, for other reasons :P

I have got something really wrong, seems like pulling knowledge out of my memories from years ago is no good. I'll do amendments as due.

Emiya has 27 natural magic circuits. I'm sure it is also mentioned at some point in the VN I just need to dig it back up.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by quigonkenny

And that's assuming Archer didn't top himself off between healing post-Rho Aias and backstabbing Caster. Good post.

That's also a possibility. However, there's no knowing about that, so we must work within what we already know.

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Not to poke holes in theories or anything, but... I think what Archer was referring to in his holy sword talk was rather a combination of his original statements and his retconned capabilities with Tracing. 'cause the retcon is that he can't Trace Excalibur. The anime's dialogue seemed to imply that the Tracing of Excalibur would be what would kill him, rather than draining himself dry with the Excaliblast... but that he would be able to Trace and wield it properly against the real Excalibur before that tracing DOES kill him.

Ah, although Archer did not specifically said that using Excalibeam or tracing the weapon will kill him, we have to remember a few things here:

1. UBW is a reality marble where Archer stores swords. Every sword he wields within UBW is not traced, but pulled out from earth. So we know there's no cost to the production of Excalibur.

2. Archer did say "If both our swords clash, the resulting aftermath will kill everyone else on the scene" (or something like that). We know the normal clashing of swords won't release any energy blast like an AoE attack, so by elimination we'll know that it is the clash of two Excalibeam that causes the aftermath that will "kill everyone else"

[iamandragon]

Originally Posted by Geburah

When Rin uses her maximun output with the Jeweled Sword the text say that those atacks are comparable to Excaliblasts.

Rin maximun output is 1000 and base prana is 500. Saber has 1200-1300 prana units so its easy to see why she cant use it more than once at full power, then we can say that one Excaliblast is around 1k prana cost wise.

Shirou has 20-30 prana units but we dont know his maximum output, and we can be certain that UBW deployment + sustain if far more expensive than 30 prana. When Shirou was using it Rin was complaining that Shirou was draining her prana reserves HARD, and thats coming from a 500 prana magus

Also Archer CANT trace Excalibur but he can trace a similar weapon with a similar active effect. Tracing it is not the problem (its quite cheap in fact thats why he can use swordspam) but using it as NP since it will probably drain tons of prana to get close to Excalibur's output. Only on Moon Cell, he is able to trace Excalibur Image since tracing got a boost there.

Well well well I need to dive back to the VN when I have the time!

Also, Archer is known to be a big fat liar(he's been lying since day one to Rin about his identity) so there's no knowing if he can trace Excalibur or not. He did say he can, but he might be lying...damn Archception.

[Dengar]

I'm fairly sure that the so-called "excaliblast" is part of the package. Why else would you trace Excalibur to begin with?

That said, it has been shown that UBW doesn't just copy weapons, it can also modify them (Caladbolg II for example). Therefore it's not inconceivable for Archer to trace a sword that looks similar and has a similar ability, but at a greatly reduced output. In fact doesn't he do this in some of the spinoffs? "Excalibur Image", I believe?

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Well well well I need to dive back to the VN when I have the time!

Also, Archer is known to be a big fat liar(he's been lying since day one to Rin about his identity) so there's no knowing if he can trace Excalibur or not. He did say he can, but he might be lying...damn Archception.

The materials confirmed that Archer is unable to trace divine weapons like Excalibur and Ea.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'm fairly sure that the so-called "excaliblast" is part of the package. Why else would you trace Excalibur to begin with?

That said, it has been shown that UBW doesn't just copy weapons, it can also modify them (Caladbolg II for example). Therefore it's not inconceivable for Archer to trace a sword that looks similar and has a similar ability, but at a greatly reduced output. In fact doesn't he do this in some of the spinoffs? "Excalibur Image", I believe?

Excalibur Image works because of the Moon Cell. At least that's what the ingame explanation is. It's still a cheap knockoff that only works in EXTRA.

The actual meta explanation is, they made an animation for it when Nasu wasn't looking and Nasu didn't want their efforts to be wasted, so he came up with an explanation that doesn't contradict what he already said.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

The materials confirmed that Archer is unable to trace divine weapons like Excalibur and Ea.

Got quote? Because I've been tought that while he can trace neither Excalibur nor Ea, the reasons for these are completely different.

Excalibur just requires more mana than Archer has to burn. Whereas Ea cannot be traced simply because it cannot be analyzed.

[Geburah]

Originally Posted by iamandragon

Well well well I need to dive back to the VN when I have the time!

Also, Archer is known to be a big fat liar(he's been lying since day one to Rin about his identity) so there's no knowing if he can trace Excalibur or not. He did say he can, but he might be lying...damn Archception.

In fact Archer is known for not being a liar, but a person that says half truths and often hide things. He technically didnt lied to Rin since his memory is in fact fuzzy and is pretty skilled on deviating the conversation flow when he wants to.