Code Geass Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[JRyan2K]

Everyone is saying Suzaku killed his dad, which is true...but has anyone stopped to think it may have been an accident? Maybe they were struggling around and the dad got stabbed by accident. You can say he killed him without an intention to actually kill him.

Also, if Mao comes back again, I hope it is the final episode and he Kills Lulu, he deserves it. I would have ran outside and made damn sure he was dead and not just stand inside the church (or chapel, or whatever it was) and be thinking about stuff. He should of ran outside, grabbed the gun and just shot Mao point-blank in the head about half a dozen times, then you know he is dead.

Also, about Cornelia...she may have not had anything to do with Marianne's death, maybe she does tho. I find it hard that she knew and did nothing. I mean, Euphie even knows that Clovis was involved in the murder, so somehow information was leaked, tho we do not know how much. Why would Clovis's involvement be leaked tho and no one else's? Even tho Clovis said (under the Geass) that Cornelia, and I believe Schneizel?, were involved or knew something or the truth behind the murder, doesn't mean it is true. Clovis mentioned her name, but that doesn't mean she was actually involved. People can vehemently believe that someone has done something or known something, carrying it with them to the day they die...and the actuality is that it is all a misunderstanding. In the case of getting information from a victim, Lulu's Geass forces them to tell the truth. Tho it is, in fact, the truth that is believed in their mind to be the truth. Meaning, if they know for a fact that "2+2=4", they can't tell Lulu that "2+2=5". However, if they were taught to believe that "2+2=5" is truth, then they would say that, even tho the statement is false. Understand?

[JRyan2K]

Could a mod delete this post? I accidentally posted twice, but I didn't see a "delete" option, just and "edit"

[ashlay]

Everyone is saying Suzaku killed his dad, which is true...but has anyone stopped to think it may have been an accident? Maybe they were struggling around and the dad got stabbed by accident. You can say he killed him without an intention to actually kill him.

no, since I have more faith in the writing staff than that.

you go for what's interesting. and what's interesting is if Suzaku intentionally murdered his father, not that it was an accident, because if he meant to do it, it's just that much more haunting.


Suzaku intentionally killed his father for the same reason Lelouch keeps getting into bad situations despite being brilliant and manipulative: people like Lelouch because he's a nifty character, but the reason you watch the show is because Lelouch's lot in life is not an easy one. we say we wish these sorts of things didn't happen to the characters we like, but its precisely because we like them and they're placed in horrible situations that we keep watching.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by JRyan2K

Everyone is saying Suzaku killed his dad, which is true...but has anyone stopped to think it may have been an accident? Maybe they were struggling around and the dad got stabbed by accident. You can say he killed him without an intention to actually kill him.

did anyone say that it was intentional? its blatantly obvious that it was an accident ~ suzaku was probably trying to prevent his dad from doing something that he thought was unjust...but stabbing probably went over the limit

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

If Suzaku didn't mean to kill his dad, then he would have said "It was an accident!" or "I didn't mean to!" rather than the "I had no choice!" that he actually used to reply with. Thus, it was no accident. Q.E.D.

[Deathkillz]

fine you proved a good point >.< okey suzaku is concluded as evil ~ actually ive never really thought that he could do such a thing ~
but there could be another meaning to "i had no choice" anyone care to think of an excuse? (actually there isnt...well if killing his dad means that he could save "someone" then that could explain something ~ he had no choice but to kill his dad in order to save lulu! (crazy baseless speculation)[/spoiler]

[Shiroth]

Back when the mind hax happened to Suzaku, there was a scene that shown Marianne (Lelouch & Nunnally's mother) with Suzaku's father. Not to say that could be linked to this, though its something that should be thought about.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

Back when the mind hax happened to Suzaku, there was a scene that shown Marianne (Lelouch & Nunnally's mother) with Suzaku's father. Not to say that could be linked to this, though its something that should be thought about.

though Suzaku and Lelouch also appeared in the odd white space with the creeping death soon after, and were looking at each other.

the sequence was way to wiggy too make any definite assumptions. 0_o

[FlareKnight]

I'm not quite sure with the "I had no choice" statement. If you've done something wrong, or when something terrible happens you want justification. There has to be a bigger meaning than it was a random incident, or an accident. Having some meaning like it was for the sake of the country is better than nothing. Mao said Suzaku was grasping for an explanation, so it seems like he didn't really have a set plan when he went for his father.

Though I agree it's equally possible that he really did it intentionally. Trying to rationalize what might've been a crime of passion with the reasons he used. Until we can see the entire scene I can't be sure. That scene seemed to be showing a heated argument, father throws a punch, Suzaku uses a knife I think it's clear who wins that one.

The response right after an event is usually the most honest. Suzaku has had years to try and figure out that event and what he thought of it. In the end I think the most likely scenario is that it was simply a sensless crime. Suzaku was desperate to stop his father things escalated and it ended with his father's death.

I'm interested in next week though. From Lelouch's expression either something has gone horribly wrong again. Or maybe since Suzaku is unstable right now he loses and Lelouch gets to see who's been piloting Lancelot.

[Mgz]

sucks to be father in Code Geass Universe, either you get stabbed by your 8 year old son or you're going to bite the dust soon by your 17 year old son :<

[Anh_Minh]

I wonder if Lelouch isn't going to be able to somehow turn Cornelia against the Emperor and the first Prince whose name I can't remember or pronounce? In revenge for Marianne.

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by ashlay

though Suzaku and Lelouch also appeared in the odd white space with the creeping death soon after, and were looking at each other.

the sequence was way to wiggy to make any definite assumptions. 0_o

That white scene was due to Lelouch touching C.C. - aka being apart of the mind hax. Marianne appearing in the scene with Lelouch's father was a flashback.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I wonder if Lelouch isn't going to be able to somehow turn Cornelia against the Emperor and the first Prince whose name I can't remember or pronounce? In revenge for Marianne.

That just reminded me of a crack-pot theory I made up last night...

If Lulu want to, he could Geass one of Schneizel's men into assassinating (or more likely attempting but fail to assassinate) Euphie.

Then Zero can just sit back and watch the fireworks.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That just reminded me of a crack-pot theory I made up last night...

If Lulu want to, he could Geass one of Schneizel's men into assassinating (or more likely attempting but fail to assassinate) Euphie.

Then Zero can just sit back and watch the fireworks.

that would just be lazy and anyways lulu is too smart to think of such a simple solution

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by Shiroth

That white scene was due to Lelouch touching C.C. - aka being apart of the mind hax. Marianne appearing in the scene with Lelouch's father was a flashback.

right, but the sequence is:
-crazy Suzaku mind hacks
-reality
-crazy CC flashbacks
-back to reality
-Marianne
-Kuurugi
-Suzaku
-Lelouch
-looking at each other
-madness! >_O

I can just as easily argue from these images that Marianne and Kuurugi both appeared because they had similar meanings/significance in each of their minds. (same concept, different expression) while I'm not saying that's right, the crazy mind hax is far too off the wall to really have any definite theory. and with nothing else to suggest a past connection....

still, it'd be fun.

[myopius]

Excellent. Wonderful--they really have stepped away from stereotypes.

I see where the first line of the episode makes sense, many examples afoot. Malice born from kindness: Suzaku kills his father to save Japan. Kindness born from malice: Suzaku becomes a soldier in reaction to his own terrible deed. And Leouch's whole style of life is a kindness/malice duality obviously, since it's his kindness toward the weak such as his family that drives him to do stuff like blow up that ship 3 episodes back.

CG at first at first seemed an undeep show that has cool/unique characters/plots but doesn't really have any subtle moments to really enhance it, but now that what many of us suspected in Suzaku (that what he does / has done is just as morally ambiguous as what Lelouch does / has done) has finally been explicitly confirmed. On top of that, Lelouch just becomes more and more awesome. The way he just broke down when he believed there was no way he could win (too bad he isn't a supercapable soldier like Suzaku or he'd just throw the chess board in Mao's face and knock him unconscious spontaneously). And the way Mao characterized Lulu when he said that Lelouch was the type of person who superanalyzes and questions himself to spectacular extents just ties in with all the complexity and elements of self-doubt we've started to see in him especially since Shirley told him Zero killed her father. In short, we continue to see new sides to Lelouch--more aspects of him--while with Suzaku we see just one aspect, but more and more of its depth.

All in all I think the level of what they've tried to accomplish, while not at the maturity level of, say, Death Note (or what Death Note could have been had the mangaka not explicitly tried not to focus on characterization) in terms of character potential, is the perfect kind of show I'd want the type of people who become bored by Death Note to watch--it has similar potential to really activate areas of your mind that normally aren't ever activated, and is more unsubtly exciting so it'll be better received. A brilliantly win series.

[Trax]

It's official, Suzaku's a fruitcake. There were some strong hints that he killed his father, but now it has been confirmed by Mao (who added the convenient psyche analysis) and just like with the C.C. flashback attack he totally breaks down. This must be one of the most fucked up cases of denial, going from patricide to joining the Britannians to reinforce the reasoning behind his action. I'm just not sure whether that was a conscious or subconscious move yet, is he aware of his past actions or does it only surface when he's confronted with it? Well I won't go into this any further, VCV already did a good job of that.

One thing I don't understand is how Suzaku went from Britannian-hating (as shown in the DVD extra) to Britannian-fearing. I suppose his hate diminished by hanging out with Lelouch & Nunally but did he come to fear the Britannian empire from things he heard from Lelouch and come to believe that there's no point in resisting? Even so, killing his dad seems to imply there was a little bit more to it than that.

Time for something completely different; I liked the little interlude showing Cornelia and Euphemia, reminiscing about Clovis, Lelouch and Nunnally. It's quite ironic that she wishes to stabilize Area 11 in honor of their fallen siblings, including Lelouch. I seriously can't wait to see the reaction when they at some point find out the truth, assuming they do. One thing to take out of Cornelia's statement is that it's unlikely that she knows anything about who was behind the assassination of Lelouch's mother.

There were also some things that didn't make sense to me in this episode. For one thing, why would Mao use a bomb with a 500m radius if he knows that he would have to wait out of Geass range. And even if that radius is that high, it seems unlikely that it would penetrate to the surface completely since it's quite deep. He could still have stayed in range, which means that Lelouch's deduction was flawed aswell. Unless ofcourse in the CG-world the bomb technology is something that desintegrates all matter in a certain radius without restrictions. Then there was the chess game; it almost seemed like Lelouch lost all his pieces without a fight, and he never took some back in return. Even with Mao's Geass this seems unlikely. Sure he would win out in the end, but it couldn't have been that overwhelming. Also, it looked like Mao expected to see the result of his explosion. What, he had an indestructable camera in place that could withstand that explosion? Well one possibility is that it was a super high tech camera with huge range and the hall was well over 500m in length. Well this concludes the list of things that didn't quite add up to me.

Next episode looks interesting apparently Lelouch finds out who's the pilot of the Knightmare he's come to hate.

[FlareKnight]

Well I'm going to assume that the war was already going on when Suzaku and his father had their argument and subsequent death. I don't think it was that Suzaku was afraid of Britania, just that it was clear Japan was going to lose. His father apparently was satisfied having Japan fight to the absolute last man and to the bitter end. Which is noble and everything, but completely pointless since all they were doing was throwing away lives.

I'm guessing that Suzaku didn't want the entire country to be killed by a futile effort to fight a war that there was no chance of winning. Still leaning towards an argument breaking out, father punches, Suzaku stabs and that's the end of that. It certainly makes the conversations interesting. With Suzaku it's a mixture of guilt and distain for the method he had used back when he was young in stopping his father. But also still disliking the method of unnecessary bloodshed that Zero is using. Seems like Suzaku is running himself into a bad situation. He has to either accept what he did and continue on that path to avoid unnecessary bloodshed or decide to help the Japanese like he had originally intended by whatever means are needed. Sitting in the position he is right now will eventually break him.

For the rest concerning I've already mentioned what I thought of it so it's fine. Sure Mao could've used a bomb that wasn't 500m in radius but then the show would've made it tough for Lelouch and Suzaku to make the rescue . With the chess it's not surprising to me that Lelouch lost so badly. He already has the memory of losing once before, knowing Mao's geass, and being distracted by his concern for Nunally. I've never played a chess game under those circumstances but it probably wouldn't be easy. Lelouch practically defeats himself since he spends all the time questioning his moves. But yeah, some things didn't make sense but that didn't detract from the episode for me.

It looks like next week Lancelot is going to lose either to the Guren or a combination with that other machine they showed. Don't envy the issues that Lelouch is going to have to deal with on this one. I'm sure Kallen won't be that excited either considering the time she has spent with Suzaku in the school.

[evil|plushie]

Shrugs. Was the opening scene where Suzaku and Lelouch were walking through corpse field before or after he killed his dad? If it was before, that might have been his rationalisation for killing his dad. If it was after, I think the expression on his face might have stood for 'omg, what have I done???'

[antheonoileo]

Have rewatched the scences. Now I have the feeling that Suzaku didn't kill his father for the sake of peace or Japanese lives. He did that because of Lulu and especially Nanali. In the flashback he only wanted to end the war, might be not to avoid more damages to Japan side but rather because he didn't want Nanali to be gotten involved.