[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Actually, how would Erika expect to check the seals on the windows if they are on the outside?... That would mean going outside to do it, wouldn't it?

yeah that's another thing she couldn't possibly have the time to do.


chronotrig come on. Explaining why Erika put on her swimsuit to seal all the windows from inside is even harder to explain. You are not making it sound any better.

[Leafsnail]

She isn't a psycho killer... since she's declared she's the detective in red, and cannot kill anyone. And in any case, these corpses were death-confirmed anyway, so there wouldn't've been much point in killing them (although she was too stupid to actually check them).

But doesn't putting these seals everywhere smack of meta-knowledge?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

She isn't a psycho killer... since she's declared she's the detective in red, and cannot kill anyone. And in any case, these corpses were death-confirmed anyway, so there wouldn't've been much point in killing them (although she was too stupid to actually check them).

But doesn't putting these seals everywhere smack of meta-knowledge?

Did Piece-Erika ever claim to have put those seals everywhere Meta-Erika claimed?

Also, Piece-Erika cannot obey red text because she doesn't know what it is. She has no idea that because she's the detective she can't kill anyone. Or are you trying to argue she would have killed somebody but for that red?

[Sniesk]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Actually, remind me if someone's said this before, but the most "totally out of character" thing that Erika is supposed to have done was crawl around on the walls of the guesthouse in EP5. ...Well, did Erika ever actually say that she sealed the outside of the windows?

She killed 5 people "just to verify that they were dead". That is the "meta" reason of course
It is really hard to find a gameboard logic for that.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Renall

Also, Piece-Erika cannot obey red text because she doesn't know what it is. She has no idea that because she's the detective she can't kill anyone. Or are you trying to argue she would have killed somebody but for that red?

She declared "I am the detective". It definately appeared to be piece-Erika saying this. As for the second point, it's more like she decided to swap her detective's authority for the ability to murder.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by Renall

Did Piece-Erika ever claim to have put those seals everywhere Meta-Erika claimed?

Also, Piece-Erika cannot obey red text because she doesn't know what it is. She has no idea that because she's the detective she can't kill anyone. Or are you trying to argue she would have killed somebody but for that red?

Just as an aside here:

You can really see Bern and Lambda's power in EP5 as a metaphor for the writing. It seems to me that EP5 was as Dlanor hinted an episode where Bern and Lambda collaborated in shaping the events. With Bern's power, things that *MAY* be possible, although not very probable, can still come to pass. Especially with Erika. It's very hard for anyone to stay up 5 hours late into the night (after nearly drowning) listening with moving. But it's not impossible. It's very strange for Erika to put tape on all the windows. But it's not impossible.

Bern makes it possible.

In the same way, I thought you could see Lambda and Beatrice's powers active in EP1-4 in constructing the story. Certainty gives a basis for the game and the Gold/Endless (i.e. Infinite 無限) gives it variety for each episode.

So maybe for EP7, Bern and Featherine will be lending their powers. So once again we'll be getting B.S. occurrences where things that are utterly ridiculous will happen because of Bern. And Featherine will lend her power as an objective Observer so that we can finally see through to some Objective truths.

EDIT: By the way, I might have said Battler inherited Beatrice's power of 'Endless' but EP6 seemed more like it was written with his power of Uselessness 無能.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

She declared "I am the detective". It definately appeared to be piece-Erika saying this. As for the second point, it's more like she decided to swap her detective's authority for the ability to murder.

Natsuhi says a line in red in her internal narration later. How can you prove Erika didn't say she was the detective in black, and the Game Master elevated it to a red for the benefit of the reader? As that is exactly what Natsuhi's line seems to have done.

[Leafsnail]

Fair enough. Although the red line seems to have a sudden and instant effect... eh. In ep6 it's implied she could do it anyway (like with all magic).

[Judoh]

Erika sealed the rooms after she left the cousin's room with Hideyoshi. And we know that the cousin's room is in the guesthouse . There is no question about that. However what we're shown in this scene is Kanon racing to the mansion from the guesthouse so shouldn't we be figuring out how he escaped the cousin's room?

So isn't the solution here rather trivial? It's the same as someone letting Kanon out just like with George, Krauss and Natsuhi escaping a closed room in Episode 3.

Kanon had to leave the cousin's room specifically to construct the second twilight and Hideyoshi helped him do it. Kanon unintentionally rescued Battler and created a closed room with him inside it. The decision of the room he did it in was completely random. He either escaped Battler's room with method X or died and doesn't exist

I think Hideyoshi would actually do this. He has no reason to trust Erika other than that she told him the servants are suspicous. But Erika is a guest and she should be just as suspicous if not more suspicous than the servants. That and George would definitely defend them.

Therefore It's possible that Hideyoshi might have sent Kanon to keep watch on Erika if he thought she was suspicous.

[Jan-Poo]

My opinion is the same as Kylon. The games are stories and writers can do any kind of strange thing inside them.

Of course it's not acceptable for a writer to write a badly conceived story, but that goes for ther real writer. A fictional writer can write a badly conceived story if the real story requires that to happen.

In EP5 Ryuukishi had to do something drastic to give us a clear hint that the games are fictional stories. It was said since the start of the episode. With a different Game Master you could understand something about what the games are.
Beatrice has always been quite a good writer that's why it couldn't be said with certainty that her games were fictional, after all they'd work even if they were real, they were credible enough.

But with EP5 I understood that there was no way such a thing was real. That's why I don't think Ryuukishi did anything wrong, it was part of his plan. The story had to be ridiculous.

EP6 just follows what initiated with EP5. Battler might have created a perfectly logic story, but Erika's meddling turned it into some kind of crazy carnival.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Erika sealed the rooms after she left the cousin's room with Hideyoshi. And we know that the cousin's room is in the guesthouse . There is no question about that. However what we're shown in this scene is Kanon racing to the mansion from the guesthouse so shouldn't we be figuring out how he escaped the cousin's room?

So isn't the solution here rather trivial? It's the same as someone letting Kanon out just like with George, Krauss and Natsuhi escaping a closed room in Episode 3.

Kanon had to leave the cousin's room specifically to construct the second twilight and Hideyoshi helped him do it. Kanon unintentionally rescued Battler and created a closed room with him inside it the decision of the room he did it in was completely random. He either escaped Battler's room with method X or died and doesn't exist

I think Hideyoshi would actually do this. He has no reason to trust Erika other than that she told him the servants are suspicous. But Erika is a guest and she should be just as suspicous if not more suspicous than the servants. That and George would definitely defend them.

It's possible that Hideyoshi might have sent Kanon to keep watch on Erika if he thought she was suspicous.

I don't see what this explains. Kanon is in the other, properly sealed room... and in the room with Krauss and Rudolf, not Hideyoshi in any case. And "method X" gets us nowhere.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Leafsnail

I don't see what this explains. Kanon is in the other, properly sealed room... and in the room with Krauss and Rudolf, not Hideyoshi in any case. And "method X" gets us nowhere.

At the time the everyone else red was stated and Erika was also in the room at that time. Erika and Hideyoshi both left the cousins room to move over to the room next over right?

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by Renall

Pretend the Meta-World does not exist at all. Compare the behaviors of Erika in both cases. Is she a little odd? Yes. Is she an asshole? Yes. Is she a bit obsessive? Yes. Is she a psycho killer for no apparent reason? Um... no. She was willing to accuse Natsuhi of murder, but I suspect Piece-Erika genuinely (and incorrectly) believed it.

Erika does have a couple of meta-outbursts in ep5, but they are almost entirely and pointedly ignored, even though her dining room outburst could not possibly have gone unnoticed.

Hmm, we have a Genius Battler theory for the meta-world, so how about a Moron Erika theory for the real world? I'm not really serious about this, but still:

Kyrie is pretty suspicious, so Erika checks and notices that she's alive. Thinking that Kyrie killed everyone else, Erika slits her throat to prevent any more murders and save the day. Then, she goes into Natsuhi's room, realizes that she's also alive, and 'discovers' that Natsuhi and Kyrie were in on this together. She then eliminates the second culprit. Eva is very suspicious by all means. By now, Erika's sensed that something's wrong, but if she admits that all of the deaths might have been faked, she has to accept that she's just murdered two innocent people, so she kills Eva too.

By the time she notices that Maria was only faking too, she freaks. She's now murdered three people who were totally innocent of any murders, meaning that her life as she knows it is basically over if anyone finds out. Furthermore, she's left evidence at the crime scenes with her fingerprints on it. The only way out is to clear away all evidence, but she doesn't have much time. If she's discovered to be missing for too long, she'll inevitably become the suspect. Fortunately, everyone else is going to hole up in the guesthouse, so she can keep an eye on them for the time being, but there's a chance that Maria and Rosa will see the other corpses and raise the alarm. So, to protect her own future, Erika kills both of them, then races off to Battler's room. There isn't enough time to kill Battler as well (cutting off a head is no mean feat), so she seals the room with the duct tape that she prepared earlier, sealing the windows from the inside because that's easier. The seals won't stop Battler from finding the other corpses, but if they are intact, it will prove that Battler doesn't know about the other murders. Erika moves over to the guesthouse with everyone else.

After that, she does the two room trick to let her escape from the guesthouse, seals those rooms so that she can be sure later on that no one followed her, and rushes over to the mansion. Her goal, of course, is to kill Battler and then remove the evidence for all of her previous crimes.

Well, it's pretty ridiculous and unlikely, but it's probably possible.

[Renall]

Congratulations, you've just invented the Gohda Accident Theory of ep6. I love it.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Moron Erika

Spoiler for big:

Hum sorry I couldn't resist, it was so obvious...

Also, was it ever said it red that Kanon was NOT in the closed room until Erika entered ?

[chronotrig]

Still, you have to admit it does work. The only assumptions we need to make are that Erika was willing to kill the culprit to save the other survivors and that she was stupid enough to kill three of them before admitting that all the deaths were faked.
And that she'd rather commit more murders than be convicted of murder.

[Leafsnail]

Originally Posted by Judoh

At the time the everyone else red was stated and Erika was also in the room at that time. Erika and Hideyoshi both left the cousins room to move over to the room next over right?

No, Hideyoshi stayed where he was. And Erika had already left the room when the everyone else text came up.

Wait a second... new idea.

In the time it takes for Erika to seal the doors and walk round to the windows, there exists an opportunity in which anyone could've escaped the rooms just by climbing out.

Seems a bit... arbitrary, though. And not exactly "close to Beatrice's heart" either.

Also, loving the idiot Erika theory.

Frankly, I wouldn't be susprised if she killed all 5 of them thinking they were all culprits in some dastardly plot for playing dead...

[Renall]

Originally Posted by chronotrig

Still, you have to admit it does work. The only assumptions we need to make are that Erika was willing to kill the culprit to save the other survivors and that she was stupid enough to kill three of them before admitting that all the deaths were faked.
And that she'd rather commit more murders than be convicted of murder.

In fairness, I think that might be in-character for Piece-Erika.

[chronotrig]

Well, the way I see piece-Erika is a girl who thinks she's a detective. She may be very observant and have a good memory, but for someone who's grown up on fantasy and detective novels, it's easy for them to have a melodramatic view of how the world works. Especially if they've suddenly been thrust into this crazy island that sounds like something out of a VN.

Add on her insane overconfidence, and you have the makings of a true idiot genius

[Verg Avesta]

The fact that Erika is a moron could also be used to explain why she was climbing around in her swimsuit, taping the windows of a house she just found.