(L) Katanagatari

[Stretch]

I am a simple-minded viewer who has not read the manga or light novels or whatever, and who only watches each episode once. But I was so frustrated by the way Katanagatari ended that I felt I had to vent my frustrations somewhere where a few people would read them. Here are the thoughts which come to the mind of a viewer who was prepared to devote modest effort to understanding this show (in general, the more enjoyment I get, the more attention I pay and the more effort I devote in return):

I felt that the concluding episode of Katanagatari was a mess. The people who made this final segment seem to have been thinking 'let's just scramble everything up; nevermind if it makes any sense or not. The viewers will think that our unconventional approach was cool'. But some things are unconventional because it has already been shown that they don't work, and such was the case here.

Spoiler for Spoiler::

So, Togame was going to betray Shichika all along? There was never any hint of that, and when it was announced I felt confused and didn't know whether to believe it or not--especially given her even more confusing dying speech. What was going on from this point was unclear; is Shichika trying to destroy the Deviant Blades to undo Shikizaki Kiki's 'twisting' of history? But how do you twist history anyway, and why would it be bad? By the way, we learn that Kiki wasn't a swordsmith at all, which leaves the origins of the blades unexplained--that was a brilliant move (not). Shichika fights a series of bizarre opponents to recover the blades; he says he has come to the castle to die, but he kills everyone he meets. The problem is, he seemed the bad guy here, since his opponents were only defending the castle against an intruder. Physics didn't apply to these fights, and I guess they were just to get most of the blades out of the way quickly. Please explain how twelve freakish swords have some sort of power to change history! It was hard to be moved by Togame's flashbacks near the end, since everything we thought we knew about her had been unceremoniously dumped at the start of the episode (another 'brilliant' storytelling move). I knew which way the fight between Shichika and Emonzaemon would go--that was too critical to change--but I found myself not really caring. Shichika is riddled with bullets, but that doesn't even slow him down. And all of a sudden the Shogun is declared to be the real villain--that is nonsense, what did he ever do wrong? And I'm supposed to be thrilled when he buys the farm? On the contrary, I fely sorry for him--and angry at Shichika. When the climactic scene came to an end, I could only think that was stupid. The person who has been built up over numerous episodes as the villain gets off scot-free--in fact, I seem to be supposed to like her now--while someone who I have absolutely no grudge against dies instead? How did Shichika survive all his wounds? And what the hell happened to the Maniwa leader? I thought he was the main threat now, after going berzerk, but he makes only one brief appearance here.

What a sloppy--no retarded--conclusion. Bizarre twists like these could work, but not when little or no effort is made to make them plausible. Strange things happening for no reason is not entertainment. What a mess Katanagatari turned out to be; and what a tragic waste of potential.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Stretch

I felt that the concluding episode of Katanagatari was a mess. The people who made this final segment seem to have been thinking 'let's just scramble everything up; nevermind if it makes any sense or not. The viewers will think that our unconventional approach was cool'. But some things are unconventional because it has already been shown that they don't work, and such was the case here. [SPOILER="Spoiler:"]So, Togame was going to betray Shichika all along?

Some questions remain unanswered. This is one of them. (Just because it's her dying speech doesn't mean she couldn't have been lying. Or mistaken.)

There was never any hint of that,

Except the first Maniwani's revulsion at Togame, and her back story.

and when it was announced I felt confused and didn't know whether to believe it or not--especially given her even more confusing dying speech. What was going on from this point was unclear; is Shichika trying to destroy the Deviant Blades to undo Shikizaki Kiki's 'twisting' of history?

Not really. The blades breaking is just what happens when he fights without holding back, as he had for the whole series.

But how do you twist history anyway, and why would it be bad?

Who said it was bad? Well, Togame's father, I suppose, but that may have been the Deviant Blade talking.

By the way, we learn that Kiki wasn't a swordsmith at all, which leaves the origins of the blades unexplained--that was a brilliant move (not).

What do you mean, unexplained? "Shikizaki Kiki wasn't a swordsmith" doesn't mean he didn't make the swords. He did. It just means the Blades were a means, not an end. And it "explains" them: they were made with future tech he knew about because he could see the future. (Not a very good explanation if you like to murder catgirls, but no worse than what you usually see.)

Shichika fights a series of bizarre opponents to recover the blades; he says he has come to the castle to die, but he kills everyone he meets.

That's what happens when he fights, yes. Unless he makes a special effort. Nanami warned Togame about that.

Yes, he went to die. But he wanted to die fighting.

The problem is, he seemed the bad guy here, since his opponents were only defending the castle against an intruder.

Yes, we also knew about that: caring about other people's lives doesn't come naturally to Shichika. Meisai and Konnayuki were exceptions. (And note, it didn't save Meisai.)

Physics didn't apply to these fights, and I guess they were just to get most of the blades out of the way quickly. Please explain how twelve freakish swords have some sort of power to change history!

A thousand, actually, even if you count Tsurugi as "one". Whether because of their actual powers, or because of the PR element, they changed who came out on top of the Warring States. (though that admittedly didn't change much. "Meet the alternate history boss, same as the real history boss"?) It also made Shichika kill the Shogun. I think it was supposed to end the shogunate there and then, but that didn't work out. Nobody's perfect, and history's apparently a tough cookie.

The goal, if I understood it, was to do something about Perry's black ships. I didn't really follow how - did he want a stronger Japan, that would be in position to tell Perry to take a hike? Or a more open one, so there wouldn't be a need for gunboat diplomacy in the first place?

It was hard to be moved by Togame's flashbacks near the end, since everything we thought we knew about her had been unceremoniously dumped at the start of the episode (another 'brilliant' storytelling move). I knew which way the fight between Shichika and Emonzaemon would go--that was too critical to change--but I found myself not really caring. Shichika is riddled with bullets, but that doesn't even slow him down. And all of a sudden the Shogun is declared to be the real villain--that is nonsense, what did he ever do wrong?

He ordered the death of Togame's father, and all his family - thus including Togame. Si Togame wanted him dead. Mostly, though, he was a weak, dumb ruler, and his descendants didn't look like they'd be better. So Shikizaki Kiki wanted him dead.

Evil? Not particularly.

And I'm supposed to be thrilled when he buys the farm? On the contrary, I fely sorry for him--and angry at Shichika.

Indeed. If you wanted a conventional good-vs-evil story, Katanagatari wasn't for you.

When the climactic scene came to an end, I could only think that was stupid. The person who has been built up over numerous episodes as the villain gets off scot-free--in fact, I seem to be supposed to like her now--while someone who I have absolutely no grudge against dies instead?

He's also the whole reason Togame did what she did.

As for Hitei... Yes, she was Togame's rival and the antagonist. But she was never portrayed as evil, either.

How did Shichika survive all his wounds?

He's demonstrably superhuman, courtesy of Kiki's meddling, too. I guess Hitei nursed him back to health.

And what the hell happened to the Maniwa leader? I thought he was the main threat now, after going berzerk, but he makes only one brief appearance here.

What? When? Didn't he die in ep 11?

[Kakkou]

These are all my own theories based on my understanding of the anime. Novel readers feel free to correct me.

Originally Posted by Stretch

So, Togame was going to betray Shichika all along? There was never any hint of that, and when it was announced I felt confused and didn't know whether to believe it or not--especially given her even more confusing dying speech.

Her entire goal had been to avenge her father's death by rising ranks enough to seek an audience with the Shogun, which in this case would be gathering 12 legendary swords. She was willing to use any and everything she could to achieve that, and had planned to dispose of Shichika the moment he outlives his purpose. While I admit my own gripe with Katanagatari would be the lack (but doesn't mean it's not there. Koumori already dropped the first hint) of foreshadowing of Togame wanting to kill Shichika, I always felt that the episode with Higaki Rinne was the main clue hinting towards her goal, especially his/her final warning to Togame.

What was going on from this point was unclear; is Shichika trying to destroy the Deviant Blades to undo Shikizaki Kiki's 'twisting' of history? But how do you twist history anyway, and why would it be bad?

He just wanted to die by being killed in action as in, someone properly defeating him as opposed to just jumping off a bridge or something. I doubt he had anything grand in mind as to undo the distortion in history. As for changing history, whether it is good or bad depends on the individual i guess. Togame's father saw it as bad. How do you twist history? It's been done countless times in stories with time travel or clairvoyance. Just do something that was not meant to happen (e.g. Someone does something bad; kill him before he does). In Kiki's case, he created the swords with knowledge beyond their time.

By the way, we learn that Kiki wasn't a swordsmith at all, which leaves the origins of the blades unexplained--that was a brilliant move (not).

Shikizaki not being just a swordsmith was explained and the origin of the blades, or rather the concept that led to their creation was figured out even before the last ep. Kiki used his soothsayer abilities to learn about future ideas, theories and technologies and implemented them in each of his swords (along with what I presume to be some supernatural magic or whatnot that's within the confines of the Katanagatari world). Japan at that time still didn't know of guns, solar energy and the like so he was able to bullshit and call weapons like Biyorigou and Entou Jyuu (solar powered automaton and pistol/revolver) 'swords'.

Shichika fights a series of bizarre opponents to recover the blades; he says he has come to the castle to die, but he kills everyone he meets. The problem is, he seemed the bad guy here, since his opponents were only defending the castle against an intruder.

Not the first time he's done some morally ambiguous killing.

Please explain how twelve freakish swords have some sort of power to change history!

Would Napoleon had lost if his army were exclusively given our current modern military artillery? Considering how Kiki made them, they were never meant to exist in the first place. History had already deviated just by having the swords made.

Shichika is riddled with bullets, but that doesn't even slow him down.

He's already been shown to have inhuman capabilities, so nothing too odd here. Personally I think Emonzaemon was able to be on par with him precisely because Shichika was wounded.

And all of a sudden the Shogun is declared to be the real villain--that is nonsense, what did he ever do wrong?

As far as Togame and Hitei were concerned, he had been the villain from the very start. Togame wants revenge while Hitei wants him dead so that (Japan's) history may go in another direction instead of being under his rule. To elaborate further, Kiki had foreseen the shogun being incompetent and try to have him killed. 'History' tried to fix this by having another different royal family succeed the throne and essentially end up doing the same things the last one would have done anyway and thus generations later Hitei decided she'd follow her family's goal and have a go at getting rid of the shogun. Of course, as she reveals she never really did quite give a damn whether it happened or not.

And what the hell happened to the Maniwa leader? I thought he was the main threat now, after going berzerk, but he makes only one brief appearance here.

The Maniwa have 12 heads, with Houou being considered the leader of the bunch. In case you did miss most of ep11, Houou died after being posessed by Kiki, massacring the Maniwa village and defeated by Shichika. If I had to guess, you were referring to the guy with Soutou Kanazuchi in the final episode. He said he was of Maniwa lineage, not necessarily of any high position. I think it's mentioned outside of the anime that he's an ex-Maniwa.

I couldn't bother with the whole post, but I hope this may help clear things. Katanagatari has it's faults (as do other series) but certainly not to retarded levels.

[Stretch]

I admit that Katanagatari isn't 'retarded', it just isn't designed for the average viewer who is prepared to devote an average amount of attention and has an average attention span. Like I said, I have found that the amount of effort which I am prepared to devote to making sense of a show is directly proportional to the amount of enjoyment I get out of it. Episode four was spectacular, but otherwise the quality seemed to fall off after that and I lost a good deal of interest. I wasn't getting my money's worth, so to speak. So I didn't take notes, or rewatch episodes. But I think a really good show should make sense to most people without them having to do more than give it one solid watch. It should grab their attention and hold it right to the end. It should make them want to do whatever it takes to make sense of the plot. Katanagatari just didn't do that for me.

I still think that the final episode made mincemeat of the basic rules of storytelling even if there was a sort of logic to it after all. Likeable characters should come out OK, or, if they die, there should be a moving lesson to their deaths; I didn't feel that. Shichika became a villain, killing people left and right just so that he could die fighting; Togame died in a confusing and meaningless manner--it became meaningless when she admitted her plan to kill Shichika. Was she telling the truth or making it up so that he wouldn't be heartbroken by her death? There's no answer. And I'll never understand how the princess wound up as Shichika's new sidekick--I had thought that maybe he was attacking the castle to kill her as revenge for Togame. Togame never seemed a very hateful person to me, so the notion of her carrying out a meticulous plan to assasinate the Shogun never registered in my mind. And if Shichika really is superhuman, then that would mean that he was never really in much danger to begin with, so why should I get excited when he fights?

And if Houou was already dead, who was that talking bird that brought Shichika a message? Emonzaemon? Houou always wore a bird costume.

I guess I just took the absurdity of Katanagatari for granted, and assumed there would never be any explanation (like 'time travel') for the bizarre swords. Swords do such crazy things in anime (like moving faster than bullets, or knocking people off their feet without ever touching them) that this didn't seem all that odd. So, I wasn't looking for any rational explanation and didn't catch it when it came.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Stretch

And if Houou was already dead, who was that talking bird that brought Shichika a message? Emonzaemon? Houou always wore a bird costume.

That was definitely Emonzaemon.

[Malintex_Terek]

I just finished this, and elevated it to my Masterpiece list, of which only six other anime occupy. I shouldn't have to defend why I think its good, it should be apparent to everyone watching the series with a strong anime background. My only gripe is it was predictable at times, yet this was balanced by being unpredictable at other times.

Also, I hate the Narrator. She'd spoil stuff and it would tense me up, building suspense for when her forecasts came to pass.

I'm confused by something, though.

Katanagatari strikes me as similar to Musashi Gundoh in that there's a lot of anachronistic elements in a "wrong" timeline. Something happened during the Sengoku period that started history off in a wrong direction from how it happened in we, the viewer's universe. But what caused this? My impression of Shikizaki was he and his family acted sort of like the Illuminati or Ylliaster, keeping history on the straight course using their knowledge of how the world should be. Is this assumption correct - that the Yanari Shogunate came to be erroneously and Shikizaki + Takahito Hida were effective allies in trying to overthrow it? And the replacement of the Yanari Shogun with a Tokugawa Shogun corrected things? Or did Shikizaki himself cause the distortion, and somehow it was his plan to correct it?

[Anh_Minh]

Uh... No. Not only Shikizaki caused the distortion, but his plan was to accentuate it. He wanted to break free of fate. He apparently didn't like what was going to happen 150 years after Katanagatari.

[shichi-chan]

Originally Posted by omimon

Nono, I think you misunderstood what I meant. They did indeed fight but it's just that it wasn't written. In the book the description ended when Emon said Danzai Entou and Shichika said Kyoutouryuu ultimate move. The next two minutes of epic battle wasn't shown in the novel.

Oh, I see Haha. Sorry about that.

[Malintex_Terek]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Uh... No. Not only Shikizaki caused the distortion, but his plan was to accentuate it. He wanted to break free of fate. He apparently didn't like what was going to happen 150 years after Katanagatari.

That's what doesn't make sense.

I understood he made the swords to influence the history, but I don't see the ends. It was said by Hiteihime that foreigners would invade Japan, but wasn't the Yanari Shogunate orchestrated by Shikizaki to those ends? Why would he go from establishing the Yanari Shogunate to wanting Shichika to destroy it?

I want to know what aspect of Yanari is erroneous to Shikizaki, the fact that he was peaceful, which would have spelled the end of Japan when the foreigners invaded, or that he shouldn't have come to power at all, Shikizaki intended someone else to come to power.

[Anh_Minh]

In a way, the Yanari shogunate was a failure. Yes, history changed. But it didn't change enough. He wanted... something different. So he made his blades, including the Kyotoryu, hoping to twist history away from what he predicted. (But all it ended up doing was change a few names here and there.)

[shichi-chan]

All the Yanari Shogunate did, was secure peace across the warring states. and Keep japan from interacting with outside countries.

[medigo]

only a few more days before we can even hope to listen to the soundtrack

[Sprite_Coke]

Finished!!!
I'm thankful for the great year this series led.

My few comments are,
They tried to make the final episode a lot like Kenshin Trust and Betrayal
Hitei hime's existence was kind of unneccessary.

[frodonk]

from what i've read in the thread, for those who didn't like the ending maybe because of the confusion with regards to the plot, my advice is to watch all 12 episodes again in succession as to get the clues/references that had been given all throughout the year.

as for the other reasons (protagonists becoming villains etc) that's how the "gatari" part of the title goes. if it is not to one's liking then there's nothing other people can do.

there's just too many thoughts swimming in my head right now that i could not sort them all, all i know is that i'm glad i watched the nov/dec episodes at the same time, i wouldn't have been able to think of anything else if i saw the cliffhanger in ep11 and would have had to wait for another month to know the conclusion.

all in all, this series is not for those who gets bored with long dialogue and would rather have eye catching visuals with their anime. although imho those long dialogues are what set this series apart from the rest, maybe excluding ef and bakemonogatari.

in the words of hitei hime, i didn't dislike it

edit: wow, just saw nihonreview's review, and it almost exactly tallies with what i've said. oh well, i guess i'm not the only one thinking the same thing.

[Daniel Lind]

Second OST previews (45 seconds of each track):
Here
Press ご試聴 under the cover artwork.

Three first themes are from episode 5: Hiteihime's theme (lyrics seem to be in English), music that played right before the battle with Kanara and the one that was used for Togame's Cheerio BSoD. Didn't expect the last one, ha. The fourth track played a lot during comedic moments in the second half of the show, I can clearly remember hearing it a lot. Fifth track is a cheery playful theme of Konayuki, expected this one. Track seven sounds like it's from episode 12, though it probably predates to episode 7.

Track 8 is the second theme for Maniwa ninjas, heard quite a lot. Track 9 is a theme that played in episode 8 when Biyori first appeared. Tenth is the first part of Biyorigou battle. I really hoped that one will appear and it did!

Track 11 is "Lay back", a song that played right before the ending roll in episodes 3 and 7. A lot of people wanted this track.
#12 played a lot too, mostly during Togame's tsuntsun moments.
Track 13 is just a sinister tune which, again, played more than once and I can't quite point where it was used, Episode 11 comes to mind.
You can hear Track 14 in Episode 9, after Togame has her third misunderstanding and freaks out completely.
Track 15... Oh god, this is straight from Episode #1, Shichika's chase after Koumori.

The following tracks are all from the last episode.
16 is a piano variation of one of the main themes that played throughout the series.
17 is a 9 minutes long song which played during Togame and Shichika's last dialogue.
18 is the showdown vs Emonzaemon. Oh yes. It's almost as epic as Gundam 00's Decisive Battle or Rebuild of Evangelion marches, which is saying a lot. Too bad the preview cuts off right where the best part starts.
19 is the new version of Bahasa Palsu which played during the boss rush.
20 is the epilogue of the last episode.


Tunes that clearly missed the release are Shireizan theme and Higaki Rinne's theme. Oh well.
I have already placed an order. I might doubt the series, but the score is a masterpiece.

[medigo]

Theme 13 was also used when Rinne started changing appearances

Sounds lovely tho, even if I miss 4 tracks which I feared wouldnt come out
(that sinister theme that first played when Komori changed into Togame, the theme that played when Emonzaemon kills the Longlived Turtle, and the 2 tracks you mentioned)

and I assume they put in that theme from episode 1 to give us the full 'Shichika takes the shogunate' experience

[Kismet-chan]

Ah, beautiful soundtrack that is more than worth having. I will definitely be buying it. <3

[applejuice]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

Well, I think that a lot of people watched this show expecting chambara or shounen, but they were either utterly disappointed or finally converted

No-one expected shounen, when they heard the word NisioisiN.

Regardless of crossing opinions, this series was very successful. It sold almost 6000~8000 copies for every single volume of 12, which is rare success for having monthly releasing format. This proves how hardcore Nishio Ishin fans are.

For me, this was an anime about the journey of Shichika and Togame becoming 'human'. This will be one of the best series I've watched this year.

[shichi-chan]

I will petrify your mind to night... Sounds like what the singa is singing for the First song lol. I like it, I have to get thsi Soundtrack. Damn lack of Money...

The song: "鳳" IS GOD TIER. 神の鳳凰 has one of the Kanji in Houou-sama's name :3 All the reason to make it more godlike ;D
All in all, I like this OST much more than the last, And I was really hoping for the Shereizan music, or the music during the Shikizaki-Kazune meeting.

[omimon]

I can't help but giggle when listening to track 3.