2010-08-30, 22:37 | Link #61 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: East Cupcake
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Still, it's interesting that you responded to the joke statement, didn't care about those poor "elitist snobs", and even removed the smilie.... Last edited by james0246; 2010-08-30 at 22:48. |
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2010-08-30, 22:46 | Link #62 | |||
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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By my definition of intellectualism, I do not think it is related to measuring human life. I do not think of my 7-year-old brother as intellectual in the slightest sense, but he has an inherent understanding of how human life is valuable. He cannot wade through facts to back up his position - he just knows it to be true. Facts can only bring us so far - we are extremely complex and emotion is inseparable from the human experience. I think an understanding that humans have rights, is a 'human universal,' it is part of who we are as a species to care about our fellow man. That human universal can be bent and molded in different ways by culture, but I think every culture in the world has some understanding, inherently, of human rights. Quote:
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Last edited by ChainLegacy; 2010-08-30 at 23:01. |
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2010-08-30, 23:08 | Link #63 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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The debate on human rights is merely an example I used to show that it is not always possible to separate the subjective from the "factual" (that is, the "objective"). It is folly to think that reason alone will provide definitive answers to all our moral dilemmas. That said, I wasn't equating "intellectualism" to the "measuring of human life". Rather, I was alluding to what Sackett had pointed out: Quote:
Such feelings are real, and sometimes dangerous. The massive reactionary backlash witnessed during China's Cultural Revolution, for example, stems in part from a perception among peasants that "intellectuals" were betraying the people's revolution. A similar tragedy occurred under Pol Pot's regime in Cambodia, leading to the killing fields. True, both events were inflamed by propaganda but, even so, the message would not have been as effective if resentment had not already existed among the working classes towards the supposedly "superior" and "uncaring" intelligentsia. To me, therefore, it is important for "intellectuals" to keep as open a mind as possible, to listen to all arguments before deciding which are valid and which are not. It is also a responsibility of the intelligentsia, I feel, to help those who are less able, to help phrase their arguments more clearly. A humanistic inclusiveness, I suppose, as described by Irenicus, rather than an intellectual exclusiveness that serves only to divide societies. |
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2010-08-30, 23:43 | Link #64 | |||
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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2010-08-30, 23:55 | Link #65 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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Your definition of "true" reality is very distinctively Western, inherited from a very long line of thought born in Ancient Greece, which valued individuality and the idea that "truth" exists independently of its environment. Asian cultures, particularly Confucian cultures, approach "truth" in a more subtle, contextual manner. This is readily apparent in the baffling aphorisms of the culture, which often appear contradictory on the surface but, on deeper reflection, is actually "true", though not on an objective level. So, again, I challenge you to broaden your conception of "truth". To me, it is both as subjective as it is objective. It is not always "distinct", as you claim. |
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2010-08-31, 00:04 | Link #66 |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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Well, that does sound like an interesting read. I am actually studying quite a bit of east Asian history and philosophy in university this year, so perhaps I will come to understand what you mean better in a few months' time. I have no qualms with broadening my definitions, though right now I suppose I don't have the 'intellectual software' to understand what you mean when you refer to contextual, Confucian-influenced understanding of 'truth'.
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2010-08-31, 00:20 | Link #67 | |
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 49
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However, you could also say that it's impossible to generalise when talking about "cultures", even though they are legitimate subjects for sociological research. The point of the book, in my opinion, is not to list all the differences, but rather to raise greater awareness of this phenomenon — the idea that our environments affect the way we think, and that the "truth" we seek is not necessarily as independent of its environment as we perceive. This is an idea that Jared Diamond also touched upon, to some extent, in his groundbreaking Guns, Germs, and Steel, starting with his question as to why Africans haven't developed as many advanced civilisations as people did in other parts of the world. |
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2010-08-31, 02:50 | Link #68 | |
Bittersweet Distractor
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 32
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And this explains why I view incorporating too much emotion in any debate is dangerous, though I do admit there is a place for it, otherwise there would not be a debate on it really in the first place. Much like anything in this world, the ideal solution ends up not being ideal because of human nature. We would like to use intellectual reasoning to determine the best course of action for many things, but like you said, different society's approaches in morality often skew it. I think one thing that should be accepted in any debate is what is considered universal or almost universal to all groups involved. If we are able to establish common ground, and work under this assumption, then intellectual debate is able to flourish without a need to worry about pesky details as you have outlined. Take the ground mosque example. Everyone can most likely agree on these points.
If people focus on these points, then you can have a good intellectual debate, instead of worrying about facts and emotions that are either not backed up or shared by everyone.
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2010-08-31, 07:16 | Link #69 | ||
Moving in circles
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Also, to the extent that discussions on art and the humanities are also part of "intellectual" debate, there will always be times when we are asked to evaluate our feelings for one position over another. The "subjective" truths derived from such discussions are, to me, no less important than the universal truths we attempt to seek from more "objective" debate. On this point, I believe we are both agreed. Quote:
Ultimately, both philosophers accepted that we can't know the universal rule, but we can nevertheless act as though there was one. In the meantime, though, we will have to wade through a universe of subjective interpretations to get to such "universal" rules. |
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2010-08-31, 11:07 | Link #70 | |
Banned
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There is a wall in front of you, and if you walk forward, you will run into it. That's an objective truth which cannot be denied. To approach this intellectually, let's get a definition. From Dictionary.com: 1. devotion to intellectual pursuits. 2. the exercise of the intellect. 3. excessive emphasis on abstract or intellectual matters, esp. with a lack of proper consideration for emotions. 4. Philosophy. a. the doctrine that knowledge is wholly or chiefly derived from pure reason. b. the belief that reason is the final principle of reality. The bolded part is my own addition. Thus, emotion cannot be included, and that means "subjective" is out. As Ricky mentioned before, that would come into play if we were discussing wisdom. I would argue that wisdom is just as needed, but the scope of this thread is limited to intellectualism only. That means, rational, logical thought is the only consideration. And thus by extension, we can only talk about what is verifiable objective reality, aka, truth. It assumes that there is a truth, even if we can't see it at the time. The last definition there with philosophy, I find interesting, and is what I base my life on. To really be an intellectual, you have to believe that knowledge can be derived from reason, which is the final arbiter of truth. It cannot be argued. A wall is a wall, and you can't call it a monkey. It is the objective truth, and you can sit there and try to deny it all you want, but when I throw this baseball at you, it's going to cause damage when it hits, no matter how much you might want to believe otherwise. Of course, by going this route and abdicating the authority of emotion, I tend to skimp a bit on wisdom. So that's my weakness. And it's a weakness because nearly all humans are emotional to some degree; if humans weren't, then intellectualism would be superior. I rarely take emotions into account when I make statements, or consider things (and thus people can accuse me of being insensitive or such). That's what it means to be a pure intellectual. And as you can see, it's not a wholly "correct" stance to take, but I feel the world needs all types. And especially could use more intellectuals, heh. |
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2010-08-31, 12:26 | Link #71 | |
I don't give a damn, dude
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In Despair
Age: 37
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Way I see it, intellectualism is about taking all sorts of ideas, and putting them through the sieve of rationality and logic. Yes, I agree on the "listening to all arguments before judging them" part, but once you actually have to get around to the judging part, it should be done properly. Let's not pretend there's any space for irrational ideas borne of wayward emotions where there isn't, shall we? I'd go on further, but I have a girlfriend awaiting my arms (yes I know, TMI ), and I have work tmr. So it'll be a while until I can come back to this, I think. |
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2010-08-31, 12:27 | Link #72 | |
RUN, YOU FOOLS!
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Formerly Iwakawa base and Chaldea. Now Teyvat, the Astral Express & the Outpost
Age: 44
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And of course, in certain fields it is easier to discard the whole human and social deal all together (mathematics, physics, etc...) while other fields just can NOT ignore the human and social dimension of a topic or subject of study (in human sciences like sociology ethnology and... arts). Do I classify myself as an intellectual? I'd rather not, I'll just say that I have a little more trivial (or not) knowledge than the average Joe in certain fields. |
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2010-08-31, 12:38 | Link #73 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Your example doesn't really show such dependencies, since it is a rather simple in environment observation. Usually debates are not about things that trivial.
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2010-08-31, 15:13 | Link #74 | |
Banned
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Point is that, yes, there is some room for subjective analysis, such as the best way to provide health care. But from an objective intellectual standpoint, you can look around the world at what works, and what doesn't, and make a determination. "This way seems to work better than this way. Of course, anything is possible and can be made to work." In that sense, intellectualism and objective reality lay the foundation. At worst, they just suggest a course of action with the best chance of success. Yes, it's not going to do anything for a "which cheesecake topping is the best?" type of debate. But there are number of debates that be addressed with the factual truth of objective reality. |
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2010-09-01, 01:46 | Link #75 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
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Think for example about your contributions in the Dating thread. How factual is the discussion there and how much objective reality do you contribute. In a real life scenario people often rely on their subjective feelings in debates (for example if the matter is too complex to realy predict the outcome of a certain proposal, especially if it involves other humans - like in politic debates for example).
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2010-09-01, 05:27 | Link #76 | |
NYAAAAHAAANNNNN~
Join Date: Nov 2007
Age: 35
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There isn't a right or wrong way to view things, it is often a personal perception that is highly subjective. There is no such thing as a 100% chance of occurence, simple statistics already prove that as long as there is another event, the occurence is just a possibility. Anything said is open to interpretation unless specific details are given. A insinuation about washing a showerhead or eating taiyaki from the gill cover can be interpreted very differently and radically, and influence by the speaker in the past (if applicable) can drastically change our perceptions towards their words.
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2010-09-01, 11:19 | Link #77 | |
Banned
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Dating is definitely a topic that has a lot of subjective in it, but there are some "best practices" that will result in greater success. Anyway, my point was that a lot can be objectified and the truth uncovered, not that everything could be. Obviously, this is a case-by-case basis, so we'd have to deal with each debate topic as it came up. To take politics, there are number of different ways we can legislate things. And we have a number of objective real world data points in the form of what other countries have done, both in the past, and currently. From that, we can list what has been shown to work best. |
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2010-09-01, 13:09 | Link #78 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
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2010-09-01, 13:26 | Link #79 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Being driven by emotion isn't necessarily a bad thing because acting on things your passionate about makes life worth living, whether the outcomes are favorable or unfavorable. Of course you can't really say 'black and white' you want to live by emotion or intellect those are both extremes I feel which would lead you either to miss out on a lot, or get into deep shit.
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2010-09-01, 13:29 | Link #80 | |
廉頗
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Massachusetts
Age: 34
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My point in saying this is, we can't ever really escape emotional decision making. There are mental 'tools' we can use, though, that alter our ways of thinking towards more rational decisions. |
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critic, meta |
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