sola - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Klashikari]

^ errr... i think you are overreacting on the stab.
You must reconsider the fact that both Aono and matsuri aren't human beings.
therefor, the usual morals we use don't really affect them prettyy much considering their immortality, and how Yorito stabbed Matsuri, you can't consider it as a murder in its litteral meaning.

you are in fact much comparing such situation with reality, while the characters aren't acting as they should be if they were humans.

thus, i can hardly feel much outrageous feeling when Aono "stabbed" matsuri, considering the impact (especially that Matsuri can heal from this kind of futile attack, but she didn't want to)

this isn't justifying anything for what aono did, but you must separate the context here.

and as for the mindraping, this is much like lying to someone who got an amnesia.
would it be wrong to lie to someone who did something wrong, or you was going to do something irreversible?
we sitll don't know why aono did this, and judging her reasons only with her behaviour is kinda superficial to say the least.

[octoberasian]

Originally Posted by orion

Well, she did commit suicide after all. But the reason is why I put that there.

Spoiler:

It's either a shotacon or a brother complex leading to a bad obsession. It still points to brother complex to me.

Hitsuji no Uta vibes are starting.

Spoiler:

Reminds me more of Koi Kaze-type brother-complex. XP

(If that's what Aono strongly feels about Yorito. Heck! I almost thought she was about to kiss him in this episode. O.o; I for sure have not seen any sister go so far to 1. erase one's memories, 2. recreate the one they love long after they're dead (presumably), and 3. have that person consume every ounce of your being and daily life.)

[WanderingKnight]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler:

I don't need to know the reasons behind certain actions to hate the actions. Aono is nothing short of attempting a murder. Unless you are saying that it is ok to murder some one in any other case than self-defense when no other options are available/viable.

I may, or may not understand her reasons (assuming there is something more besides obsession and hate towards Matsuri) once they will be revealed, but that doesn't mean i will suddenly find her actions redeemable in any way imaginable. Murder is murder and mindraping is mindraping, and both are pretty "bad" actions, no matter how you would justify yourself. It doesn't help that i can't see her justification being much different from "I don't want to".

I might be able to feel some sympathy for her situation (as much as i would feel towards any person with mental problems), but it would be a freezing day in hell before i could empathize with her actions. The moment you start using your "reasons" to justify an immoral act, you loose the right to ask for sympathy from me, much less empathy ... at least as far as i am concerned.

For me, understanding why a person does the things he does has nothing to do with my feelings about the matter. And that is why i hate Aono - because i hate the actions she takes.

Spoiler:

Lol, you're getting too personal over fictional characters.

Maybe we're watching things over different lights. Whether I like a character or not is not defined ultimately by the moral standing of the character's actions, but by the "completeness" or "roundness" of its development. While I condemn whatever person that does what Aono does IRL, we're talking about fiction and about character development. I think killing as a way of revenge is wrong, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying most of the characters in Hamlet.

[Deathkillz]

Originally Posted by orion

Well, she did commit suicide after all. But the reason is why I put that there.

Spoiler:

It's either a shotacon or a brother complex leading to a bad obsession. It still points to brother complex to me.

Hitsuji no Uta vibes are starting.

there isnt really a difference XD and i vote for her being a shotapedo :3

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler:

I don't need to know the reasons behind certain actions to hate the actions. Aono is nothing short of attempting a murder. Unless you are saying that it is ok to murder some one in any other case than self-defense when no other options are available/viable.

I may, or may not understand her reasons (assuming there is something more besides obsession and hate towards Matsuri) once they will be revealed, but that doesn't mean i will suddenly find her actions redeemable in any way imaginable. Murder is murder and mindraping is mindraping, and both are pretty "bad" actions, no matter how you would justify yourself. It doesn't help that i can't see her justification being much different from "I don't want to".

I might be able to feel some sympathy for her situation (as much as i would feel towards any person with mental problems), but it would be a freezing day in hell before i could empathize with her actions. The moment you start using your "reasons" to justify an immoral act, you loose the right to ask for sympathy from me, much less empathy ... at least as far as i am concerned.

For me, understanding why a person does the things he does has nothing to do with my feelings about the matter. And that is why i hate Aono - because i hate the actions she takes.

stabby rip stab stab

Spoiler:

well in my case until i know the full story i wont judge a book by its cover...aono atm is more or less neutral to me but more bashing = my will to protect her increases...sigh...and so if at the end you are proven wrong will you eat your hat? as hell freezes over that is ^.^

[Phantom-Takaya]

I personally will refrain from judging Aono before I get the entire story. Like what Klashikari said, it feels like there's some missing elements and unanswered questions.

When I watched the episode, she didn't seem as horrible of a person as most people have claimed her to be. She seems lost and misguided, and I could sense a very strong loneliness from her, especially when she talks, which I understand could lead to desperate, though improper, behavior.

[Skyfall]

In case of misunderstanding - my post wasn't meant to be "pointy" or anything. It is just the way they sound sometimes when i enter "serious mode"

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Spoiler:

you are in fact much comparing such situation with reality, while the characters aren't acting as they should be if they were humans.

Spoiler:

Perhaps i am, but then again - we have no other grounds to compare it to. I am not exactly an emotional person, so expect me to "analyze" the situation and apply real world logic to it. The fact that they are fictional characters doesn't mean we can't apply our morals to them. "Oh, they are not exactly human" doesn't make killing any more appealing in my eyes.

Our morals really are the only things we can judge the actions of these characters against. I am not about to dismiss her actions because Matsuri might not die that easily. Trying to kill some one is still trying to kill some one. Causing pain to some one is still causing pain, even if one does not kick the bucket from it immediately. There is no way i will suddenly view those things as more acceptable.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Spoiler:

and judging her reasons only with her behaviour is kinda superficial to say the least.

Spoiler:

As i said - her reasons don't come in to the equation for the point i am arguing over. I consider her actions wrong and worthy of my vast dislike, whatever reasons she has behind them. I am not saying i don't want to find out what makes her tick - i am saying that has no bearing on the fact whether i hate her or not.

Originally Posted by WanderingKnight

Spoiler:

Maybe we're watching things over different lights. Whether I like a character or not is not defined ultimately by the moral standing of the character's actions, but by the "completeness" or "roundness" of its development. While I condemn whatever person that does what Aono does IRL, we're talking about fiction and about character development. I think killing as a way of revenge is wrong, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying most of the characters in Hamlet.

Spoiler:

I never claimed Aono to be a poorly written character, that lacks motives behind her actions or anything of the sort, did i ? I am not saying i can't enjoy seeing her character in action - i like her as a "character" in the story, yet i hate her as a "person", which would be two different things for me, as weird as that might sound. I can hate the villain, yet still enjoy seeing him play his part, no ? But if you are saying that i should not hate him simply because he has a reason he finds sufficient to carry out his actions (which might be understandable to the audience as well) - sorry, no go As long as we agree that her actions are condemnable we are pretty much on the same ground ^_^

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

Spoiler:

well in my case until i know the full story i wont judge a book by its cover...aono atm is more or less neutral to me but more bashing = my will to protect her increases...sigh...and so if at the end you are proven wrong will you eat your hat? as hell freezes over that is ^.^

Spoiler:

Er ... proven wrong on what ?

[kelvie]

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler:

I don't need to know the reasons behind certain actions to hate the actions. Aono is nothing short of attempting a murder. Unless you are saying that it is ok to murder some one in any other case than self-defense when no other options are available/viable.

I may, or may not understand her reasons (assuming there is something more besides obsession and hate towards Matsuri) once they will be revealed, but that doesn't mean i will suddenly find her actions redeemable in any way imaginable. Murder is murder and mindraping is mindraping, and both are pretty "bad" actions, no matter how you would justify yourself. It doesn't help that i can't see her justification being much different from "I don't want to".

I might be able to feel some sympathy for her situation (as much as i would feel towards any person with mental problems), but it would be a freezing day in hell before i could empathize with her actions. The moment you start using your "reasons" to justify an immoral act, you loose the right to ask for sympathy from me, much less empathy ... at least as far as i am concerned.

For me, understanding why a person does the things he does has nothing to do with my feelings about the matter. And that is why i hate Aono - because i hate the actions she takes.

This is an example of an internal attribution -- you attribute those actions to something that is is inherent in a person's personal characteristics (such as personality), and create judgements based on that

People from Eastern cultures (especially Japan, so this includes the producers) are far less likely to make this attribution error/bias, so you have to keep that in mind. Their market is viewers in Japan, and they perceive social situations in a slightly different way than we do here.

[Phantom-Takaya]

How Skyfall perceives the characters is how he chooses to perceive them. No one has a right to really tell him that his views are not right since in reality, that's his opinion. We all have our own opinions of the characters and the story. They all don't have to match since such opinions belong to us and no one else.

[Skane]

It is going to be a hoot if Matsuri turns out to be the true villain here, and Takeshi and Aono are the wretched innocents. The way things are going, and the way this series has been, anything can happen at this point.

My only apprehension at this point is the fear of having the truth being more mundane than the speculation. There better be a good reason for not revealing the state of relationship between Aono and Yorito in the flashbacks (especially when you consider that the Japanese language has so many "name/title modifiers").

As Sae would say... "Suspicious!"

Takeshi and Mayuko's role in the overall plot has not been revealed yet either, and when you think about it, this confrontation between Matsuri and Aono is not really that early. It assures me that they are not likely to crank up the pacing into hyper-mode for the last two or so episodes (a major complaint I have in most animes that I have watched).

Oh, and on a side-note, for those who are waiting for [Doremi]'s releases, please take note that they are on vacation at the moment and will not be back until mid-June. So their projects are more or less on hold at the moment, and they make no promises on the possibility of fansubbing episodes from their laptops while they are in Hawaii. So you may want to swap to [Lunar]'s version temporarily until they return.

Cheers.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Deathkillz

there isnt really a difference XD and i vote for her being a shotapedo :3

But I think that a brother complex is more sympathizing than a shotapedo. So if you want to have more sympathy for the character go with the brother complex imo. Of course, if you want controversy mode then go for pure shotapedo.

Of course in Aono's situation, you're right. She's screwed either way imo. Her brother complex automatically makes her shotapedo.

So, now we have a yanderekko who is also shotapedo with a possible brother complex.

Too bad we have to wait one week until ep. 9 to add on more to Aono's profile.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by orion

~
Too bad we have to wait one week until ep. 9 to add on more to Aono's profile.

And to think that the critics considered her to be the most "uninteresting" in the beginning. Maybe we will get some "clumsiness-moe" from her in the flashbacks.

Heh.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Skane

And to think that the critics considered her to be the most "uninteresting" in the beginning. Maybe we will get some "clumsiness-moe" from her in the flashbacks.

Heh.

Nah. When they turned her into a manipulating shotapedo, her moe potential went downhill imo.

She's only become more interesting because she's more violent and attacking everyone's darling Matsuri which was a nice plot twist imo.

[octoberasian]

Originally Posted by Skane

As Sae would say... "Suspicious!"

Sae is a rather interesting and cute character in this series. She seems to be fascinated at bearded men and mysterious women that catches her fancy. <_<; The first being Takeshi, the second being Matsuri that she caught a glimpse of on the train. Even the way she speaks is unique.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by octoberasian

Sae is a rather interesting and cute character in this series. She seems to be fascinated at bearded men and mysterious women that catches her fancy. <_<; The first being Takeshi, the second being Matsuri that she caught a glimpse of on the train. Even the way she speaks is unique.

Actually, the way Sae speaks makes me want to plunge her head underwater. I only quoted her because it was relevant to my post.

Cheers.

[Icerack]

Sae is annoying, IMO.

[WanderingKnight]

I love Sae and the way she speaks. She always gets me giggling.

[felix]

Sae seems sick IMO >_>

---

Originally Posted by Skyfall

Spoiler:

I don't need to know the reasons behind certain actions to hate the actions. Aono is nothing short of attempting a murder. Unless you are saying that it is ok to murder some one in any other case than self-defense when no other options are available/viable.

I may, or may not understand her reasons (assuming there is something more besides obsession and hate towards Matsuri) once they will be revealed, but that doesn't mean i will suddenly find her actions redeemable in any way imaginable. Murder is murder and mindraping is mindraping, and both are pretty "bad" actions, no matter how you would justify yourself. It doesn't help that i can't see her justification being much different from "I don't want to".

I might be able to feel some sympathy for her situation (as much as i would feel towards any person with mental problems), but it would be a freezing day in hell before i could empathize with her actions. The moment you start using your "reasons" to justify an immoral act, you loose the right to ask for sympathy from me, much less empathy ... at least as far as i am concerned.

For me, understanding why a person does the things he does has nothing to do with my feelings about the matter. And that is why i hate Aono - because i hate the actions she takes.

What's with all these spoiler tags. Sheesh..

Spoiler for Reply:

#1 Your labeling her a murderer when we don't even have speculation to support that. Did anyone even mention a theory until now justifing how Aono would have purposely tried to kill anyone? I don't see Aono thinking of that Matsuri-Yorito event the hole episode. It's only normal to assume she either did it unconsciously or she didn't do it at all. (and most likely it has something to do with Yorito)

#2 We have more evidence pointing out Matsuri as much much more evil, if we were to base our assumptions on your formula. Face it she said it herself. Or is she some kind of exception to your logic.

[orion]

Spoiler for Yorito:

I'm still going with that Yorito is a daywalking Yaka with memories and other abilities sealed by Aono. (The goal of this series is to make Matsuri a daywalking Yaka after all.) If he was under the rubble and was found by Aono after Matsuri had converted her, then the obvious thing for Aono to do is to attempt to revive him. It would also explain why his sword wound from ep. 5 healed so fast.

It would also account for that ep. 2 comment by Mayuko, "Was it him?" since the only way for Mayuko to know about a guy related to Matsuri would be if Matsuri had made contact with her 17 years ago and was on friendly terms enough to talk about her past imo.

If he was a reincarnated human and found by Aono, she would have had to mess with his memories and kidnap him. Too messy of a plot for a 15 episode series imo.

But they haven't given us anything substantial about Mayuko yet. We're at ep. 8 and don't really know that much about her.

Spoiler for Mayuko:

So perhaps Mayuko is another reason for that line "You will eventually hate me.". 17 years ago, Mayuko found and befriended Matsuri. Takeshi was a friend of Mayuko back then. Matsuri was living with Mayuko then. Hunters came and killed Mayuko by mistake. Matsuri revived Mayuko but had to leave. Takeshi blames everything on Matsuri and wants her dead, but Mayuko just wants an explanantion of what happened.

[Owaranai Destiny]

Originally Posted by Cats

Sae seems sick IMO >_>

---

What's with all these spoiler tags. Sheesh..

Spoiler for Reply:

#1 Your labeling her a murderer when we don't even have speculation to support that. Did anyone even mention a theory until now justifing how Aono would have purposely tried to kill anyone? I don't see Aono thinking of that Matsuri-Yorito event the hole episode. It's only normal to assume she either did it unconsciously or she didn't do it at all. (and most likely it has something to do with Yorito)

#2 We have more evidence pointing out Matsuri as much much more evil, if we were to base our assumptions on your formula. Face it she said it herself. Or is she some kind of exception to your logic.

Spoiler:

Skyfall didn't label her a murderer, but simply someone who tried something like that, especially after using Yorito to hurt Matsuri. You are right about her doing it probably because of her own thoughts for Yorito, though.

Evidence pointing out Matsuri's evil? She might have said it herself, but let's not forget sometimes people just take the blame voluntarily for various reasons. Other than that, I hardly see any other evidence that she's 'evil', whatever our perception of that might be.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by orion

~
It would also account for that ep. 2 comment by Mayuko, "Was it him?" since the only way for Mayuko to know about a guy related to Matsuri would be if Matsuri had made contact with her 17 years ago and was on friendly terms enough to talk about her past imo.
~

Mayuko made that comment as in, "Was he the target you're after?" Not because she knew him.

Cheers.