2011-07-18, 12:08 | Link #23261 | |
Zero of the roulette
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Finland
Age: 30
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If Kinzo's hair was really red and considering the Jessica problem, then brown is probably a fine guess. Well, trusting in anime hair colour heritage... If the lesser incident is about their relationships directly like that, does it just mean Shannon and Kanon quitting? Leaving the island with Battler in 1985, or marrying George sometime after 1986 conference. Doesn't feel like justifying the expression "strange incident", but an acceptable explanation. Hmm, maybe it leads to exposing her position as the head and owner of the ten tons of gold at some point. And things happen. The thing about the message bottles being in a diary style is an extremely good point. I did think about how scenes might actually be narrated by Maria rather than Battler, but for some reason I haven't pursued it so far that there actually was no scenes where Maria wasn't present. That removes a lot of clues about Beatrice's identity though, so Tohya must have known it before "adding scenes". According to that, in Rokkenjima Prime, Battler does get to know the truth. Unless all of that were added after EP5 so to say, where he arrived to the truth by his inside knowledge of the promise and such. In the end of EP3, I'd say that she looks insane isn't necessarily about her being the culprit, but just breaking down after all that's happened. Maybe she had some delusions and thoughts of murdering after she found the gold. And then people started dying around her. Well, this is nothing new, just pointing out. Last edited by Bluemail; 2011-07-18 at 12:25. |
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2011-07-18, 13:14 | Link #23262 | ||
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Like while reading the first message bottle he remembered that "Ushiromiya Rudolph said to the Battler in his memory that he would probably die that evening" and inserted it at a point before Ushiromiya Rudolph died in the narrative. That's also my plot-related explanation why Beatrice is not yet present in EP1, because the opposition (in form of the magical explanation) had not yet formed within Tôya's head. Basically all which the diary entries probably do is portray an impossible crime which is pinned to a witch by the narration of the (supposed) Ushiromiya Maria. The blanks between the locked rooms, magical scribbles and possibly very vague descriptions in a diary entry are then probably filled by the idea of "what if it really happened through magic" in Tôya's head. Another nice example is the meeting with Kinzô in EP1. It was probably only said "And then Aunt Natsuhi went away to meet with Grandpa Kinzô after she received the key from Genji-san." followed by something like "Aunt Natsuhi said that Granpa Kinzô refused to come out". Later she probably wrote somewhere ho "Aunt Natsuhi insists that Granpa Kinzô said she had the One-Winged Eagle engraved in her heart." and all those instances combined in Tôya's head to the depiction that Natsuhi went up to the study earlier and met with Kinzô, which we later learn is actually impossible. It was not directly marked as impossible because he had not yet remembered that Ushiromiya Kinzô is dead at the start of the events on Rokkenjima. Quote:
But yes, it can be explained in various ways...which is why I actually thought about posting the Forgery Author Test here that was mentioned in the interview with Ryûkishi I translated some time ago. It's actually a nice way of comparing theories. |
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2011-07-18, 14:24 | Link #23264 | |
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The 1st twilight was probably Yasu, which explains Genji's gentle death in which he allows himself to be murdered and the general depiction of events (e.g. Virgilia/Kumasawa trying to talk Beatrice/Yasu out of it). Yasu probably faked his death. 2nd twilight was possibly really as depicted, that Yasu killed Maria to spare her any cruelties and Rosa was an accident. For 4th to 6th twilight we would have to assume that Hideyoshi shot Kyrie and Rudolph and was then shot into the back by Kyrie who survived the stomach wound long enough to do so. 7th and 8th twilight could have been Nanjô who drugged and killed Natsuhi and Krauss because he feared for his own life or suspected them for whatever reason. George could have been Nanjô who snuck after them and killed him because he thought he was the culprit. And Nanjô was a victim of Yasu for sure. The problem I have with Eva out of the picture is: 2nd twilight: What was Yasu protecting Maria from by killing her gently? It could be explained that she learned by what Rosa said that Eva solved the epitaph and it really was still just an accident...her murder roulette was already in motion since it was the 5th already. Though that leaves the question where Eva got the ring and the location of the hidden tunnel from. 4th to 6th twilight: Why would Hideyoshi attack Rudolph and Kyrie in such a reckless manner that would allow him to be shot from behind. And more importantly, what was the scene about him being angry with Eva(-Beatrice) about then? 7th and 8th twilight: How did he get them into the garden and why would he have reason to kill them? George is not even that unreasonable, apart from the problem how he would have returned in time and (in case Eva did murder Krauss and Natsuhi) how did he get back in unnoticed. |
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2011-07-18, 14:51 | Link #23266 | |
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Most events with Maria present can be said in a few sentences and it was also said that the writing was extremely small to fit as much as possible on one page. Assuming she wrote even one entry per hour, deducting the time where she is depicted as sleeping, we get maybe 30 entries...it's possible to fit those on maybe less than 10 pages if you write small and use front and back. With some skill you could fit even more into a wine bottle. |
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2011-07-18, 15:08 | Link #23267 | ||||
The True Culprit
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The Evatrice thing doesn't mean anything, it's just fantasy. Quote:
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2011-07-18, 15:38 | Link #23268 | ||
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But dismissing the fantasy scenes as just fantasy and nothing beyond that displeases me. Of course this is where we reach the point where we can argue as long as we want if there is no certain comment from the author. Still I'd like to think that he didn't just insert those scenes just for the heck of it and because they are so misleading, especially not after he ranted in the interview about how he was sad that many people refused to see the magic scenes as hints. Quote:
Also, if she actually was planning to continue the murders after Rosa and Maria, why didn't she stake them as well? Yes, many things don't add up in EP3, but I still think that is on prupose. You can come to many quick solutions, but none is really satisfactory. |
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2011-07-18, 15:48 | Link #23269 | |||
The True Culprit
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As for not staking them, as I already explained, it seems to be a mix between an "oshit" flipout and a mercy-kill. She probably wasn't in the right frame of mind to keep up her illusion, and by the time she calmed down it was too late to do anything about it.
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2011-07-18, 16:15 | Link #23270 | |||
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Based on Ryûkishi himself saying he's supervising the manga version of Umineko and discussing with the artists what to put in and what not. Of course you're free to ignore that if you'd prefer.
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Okay, in you're interpretation Eva struggling with Eva-Beatrice is just a red herring and nothing more, for me it's her struggling with her potential to murder. But I think that is something which is open for interpretation. Quote:
I think what we have to consider, and what is often forgotten, is that EP3 is not coherent within itself for a reason. If you exclude one important part of the narrative, a central murderer with a plan, then you arrive at a logic error similar to EP6. You're making assumptions as well when you are saying that we have to ommit whole passages of the narrative and regard them as total bogus when almost everything can be explained as a metaphorical representation of an actual event. Quote:
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2011-07-18, 16:40 | Link #23271 | ||||||
The True Culprit
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2011-07-18, 17:01 | Link #23272 |
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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Well, you can somewhat explain that last question by saying that even though Shannon wouldn't kill George and that Kanon wouldn't kill Jessica, Beatrice has no problem killing any of them since she's go no relation to them. On the other hand, Maria is Beatrice's friend, that's why you'd think she'd have problems killing here.
As for Eva not meeting Yasu in the room with the gold in EP3, Battler and Erika didn't meet her either when they found the gold in EP5. That, and I'm sure Yasu must have had a way to know if anyone had solved the Epitaph. Otherwise, unless she expected this person to announce it immediately, she'd have fail at keeping up properly with her roulette. One thing worth mentioning is that in EP3 we didn't see Beatrice do any killings outside of the 1st Twilight. So, the fact we saw Evatrice doing them must have meant something. Evatrice was also the avatar for the "black witch" and this one usually represented adults doing things like being bad parents, or doing criminal things because of greed. So, she could easily represent any of the adults. As for why, there are a bunch of reasons, like plain suspicion. It's also not out of the question someone else got to the gold (or say... followed Eva and/or Rosa) and started killing the rest to keep the gold to himself.
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2011-07-18, 17:26 | Link #23273 | ||||||
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Like it is said about Kyrie's speech concerning the probability of Eva becoming a murderer by the narrator during EP7: Spoiler for citation:
Ushiromiya Eva IS a wrong deduction done by Tôya in the future based on the fact that Ushiromiya Eva survived after all. Quote:
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Maybe I am missing something, but where does it say that it is a fact that Eva was not in the mansion? Quote:
In case you want to dismiss Eva as the culprit, at least think about Rudolph killing them. |
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2011-07-18, 17:30 | Link #23274 | |||||||
The True Culprit
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Yasu is nothing of not hopelessly naive. It's her defining character flaw. Quote:
What this means, really, when you consider what Beatrice IS, is that Eva takes over Yasu's role of martyring herself to protect the illusion. She doesn't deny the allegations put against her for whatever reason, and as long as she doesn't come forward with the truth, she will continue to be the evil witch that killed everyone, even though this isn't the truth. The same goes for EP3. Quote:
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And Toya is already doing Hollywood Psychology Gymnastics, so this is valid. Quote:
See above: Yasu exists, and Toya on some level knows this, else he wouldn't of done the Nanjo murder in the first place. Quote:
Even if she was there, She remains dry when she's seen shortly after those Twilights, and the distance between the two buildings is a sizable walk. To top it off, she...really has no motive to kill Rudolf and Kyrie whatsoever, and they're STAKED, implying that Yasu did it because why the hell would Eva do this? Eva clearly didn't kill the First Twilight victims, or any of the other staked victims because it's clearly Yasu's modus operandi, which Eva has no reason to adopt especially if she's going insane. She'd never kill George or Hideyoshi, we agree that Yasu probably did the Second Twilight, and she couldn't of done Nanjo. Basically, the only person Eva could have killed is Battler. Quote:
Yasu reflects on how she can't have revived Sakutarou, and now she can't even bring her back to her mother. Well...there is one way. Maria had seen a gruesome, violent scene that was clearly between two humans. She can't even convince her of further magical excuses, and she can't come up with any in this stressful "ohshit" moment. "Relax, Maria...I'll send you back to your mother. Everything....Everything will be fine..."
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Last edited by AuraTwilight; 2011-07-18 at 17:42. |
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2011-07-18, 18:10 | Link #23275 |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
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Ok, I know it's been well established that the actual text a person would read in R-Prime likely doesnt match, word for word, what WE'VE read for the individual arcs, but :
1.) What does Tohya inserting scenes into Yasu's narrative serve? It's the fact that Battler's wierd heritage was HINTED in EP1 that allowed it to be used as a bullshit theory in EP5. 2.) I won't say "those message bottles were not written from Maria's perspective", but if Yasu really wanted the message bottles to be "solved", that's very difficult from Maria's limited perspective. Also, she dies twice. In EP3, relatively early, too, and EP3 is accepted as a legitimate-sounding forgery to those who read it. In End and Dawn (wonky as they were), she was dead from the get-go. 3.) Again, while I can't deny it, I just don't see his parents bringing Battler back as some kind of inheritance gambit. What makes them think they can even get the inheritance? They think Kinzo is dead, and "Maybe this year, if he's actually alive, he'll have some elaborate test among the children" seems like a jump. Yasu did not go out of her way to get Battler to return. Kyrie and Rudolf think Kinzo is dead. Ange has been consistently portrayed as just a sickly ass child. I'm not seeing where the conspiracy goes. o_o 4.) Yasu pulls the first twilight. Eva accidentally kills Rosa, freaks out and kills Maria. Kyrie/Rudolf and Evayoshi have a shootout in the mansion - only Eva survives. George wanders off to go be stupid, gets shot by Yasu. Meanwhile, Eva kills Kratsuhi because "fuck it" by this point (she probably knows about the bomb, unless her ending up at Kuwadorian was a huge coinky-dink), and it wouldn't even be hard because Kratsuhi was basically running on coffee fumes by then. Jessica gets injured, Eva+Battler wander off. Yasu kills Nanjo because ... ... ... ... and goes off with blind Jessica to ... not cuddle in a curtain until gold-splosion. Or maybe Yasu killed her, since Eva and Battler can't seem to find Jessica afterwards. Eva kills Battler out of either temporary insanity or genuine suspicion, then hgscrambles to Kuwadorian because it was easier to let the bomb go off than try to explain what the hell had just happened to the police. Objections? The only real issue I can't resolve are the stakes in Kratsuhi. |
2011-07-18, 19:01 | Link #23277 | |||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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I wouldn't know about Yasu playing martyr, though, since everything points out she was the main culprit in the fictions and that she did plan all this stuff in reality, even if in the end, the whole thing went out of control.
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2011-07-18, 19:13 | Link #23278 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2010
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EP3 has a lot of problems, but I really do think that it can be solved with Eva killing some people and Yasu killing the others. The way RK07 kinda flicked off that question in his interview gave the impression that the obvious answer was that Yasu killed George and probably Jessica as well. |
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2011-07-18, 20:28 | Link #23279 | ||||||||
The True Culprit
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The Black Witch, on the other hand, has consistently been portrayed as a personification of people taking their anger out on others. Rosa's abuse of Maria, Eva's abuse of Ange, and so on and so forth. It's not responsible for murder, but it's much more prevalent and harmful than that. It's something everyone does to each other in order to make themselves feel better. It's Bullying Personified. Eva-Beatrice is not the Black Witch. The Black Witch only took her face. Quote:
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In the worst case scenario where she is the killer, she's kill putting herself up as the Ultimate Evil, taking the sins of the whole family onto herself so that they don't have be marked down in history as total scumbags like Eva was. Quote:
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2011-07-18, 21:09 | Link #23280 | ||
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Join Date: Feb 2008
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As for Yasu taking the sins of the others... well, that didn't really work, considering it seems the theorists are pretty much putting the blame on everyone. We also saw in EP8 what seemed to be Ange's friends taking about the murderers with a high implication they were talking about Rudolph and Kyrie. Not to mention the stories themselves show many facets of the Ushiromiyas, from them being shitty parents and gold-diggers to them showing some virtues as well.
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