2011-08-03, 09:23 | Link #23541 | |
The Observer
Join Date: Jul 2011
|
Quote:
Yep, that's true, at first I thought that Lambda was some kind of character that was extremely annoying because she always changed sides. Yet, i think ur right about her. She only loved Bern so much
__________________
|
|
2011-08-03, 10:14 | Link #23542 | |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
Basically, Lambdadelta's biggest troll was to convince everyone she wasn't a good guy the whole time. It shouldn't have been unexpected, what with Ryukishi using Bern/Lambda's appearance to make you initially draw the wrong conclusions, and Bern smashing that with a hammer relatively early.
Quote:
As to a different POV arc, I don't think that was strictly necessary, although actually showing some answers (even if it's to answers to questions that weren't ever asked, i.e. "answer" a new arc to shed light on how the old ones worked) would've probably been more interesting than the pity party segments.
__________________
|
|
2011-08-03, 14:49 | Link #23543 | ||||
The True Culprit
|
Quote:
That's because, as a character, Meta-Battler is just a vehicle to scrutinize what we're fed and call our attention to stuff that's most obviously bullshit, acting as essentially 'the voice of reason', of which he is incompetent at so that the reader has the fun of doing the work themselves. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Shit, don't know what to do. NEW CHARACTERS!" If I had to cut down the Meta-Cast, it'd be: Beatrice, Meta-Battler, Bern, Lambda, Featherine, Sakutarou (who honestly did a good job of not being intrusive), Ronove and Virgilia, Evatrice, Erika, Dlanor, Will, Lion, Clair, and Zepar and Furfur (who are fucking awesome).
__________________
|
||||
2011-08-03, 15:27 | Link #23544 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
But I agree with you that we could have went without all that characterization for characters who aren't even perfectly consistent. Especially the stakes and the Siestas come to mind. Gaap is debatable...I think his initial idea with her being a representation for "things go missing without an explanation" was nice, but because Virgilia and Ronove were actuall people on the island it didn't really connect. I don't know how I'm going to survive rereading the passages with the stakes in the PSPban of Umineko... At least the Siestas only took up relatively little screentime, but the stakes...dear God. Especially when their characterization appears like you can compare it to the family members, but then again not... |
|
2011-08-03, 15:27 | Link #23545 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
My problem was less the matter of volume and more the matter of wasting time with new characters when older characters sufficed to fit the same role.
Do we really need the Stakes and Siestas and the Goats and Gaap and etc. etc. etc.? If their role is too specific to a particular idea (and I've seen no fully convincing evidence they are, only speculation that they might be), generalize the idea and the role so that the same characters can play multiple roles. In other words, some characters are overlapping (the Stakes/Siestas/Goats), some characters are redundant (Dlanor's aides serve no purpose Dlanor herself cannot serve), and some characters are largely pointless as anything but window dressing (Zepar and Furfur). Other characters are underutilized (Virgilia, Evatrice), underdeveloped (Erika, Dlanor), introduced too late (Gaap, Will), or inconsistently utilized (Erika, Dlanor, Gaap). The former need to be merged, reimagined, or cut. The latter need to have some of what was cut given to them or use the "space" freed up to flesh them out better. Or they need to be written more consistently.
__________________
|
2011-08-03, 16:09 | Link #23548 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-08-03, 16:40 | Link #23550 |
BUY MY BOOK!!!
Join Date: May 2009
|
They probably could've been one character, although for all intents and purposes they are one character. They'd also qualify as inconsistently applied though, which is strange because they essentially fulfill the same role; the presentation is just off in their appearances, I think.
__________________
|
2011-08-03, 16:57 | Link #23551 |
Senior Member
|
The point of Zepar and Furfur is to be a clue to Shkannon. They have to be two separate characters for that to work. The real problem is that Shkannon is a pointless hypothesis that doesn't explain anything.
So either: a) Eliminate Kanon from the story. b) Rewrite it so that there are mysteries better explained with Shkannon than Shannon != Kanon.
__________________
|
2011-08-03, 17:28 | Link #23555 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
|
Quote:
I think your theory about EP2 reflects more or less the consensus, though it should be said that Kumasawa and Nanjo are portrayed, with very, very little exception, as entirely at Yasu's beck and call. The only true sheep Rosa put out (and arguably out of all 18 humans) is Gohda, who noone gives a crap about. Both the degree, and the time at which Rosa was in on the plot is open to the reader's fancy. ... ... actually, thinking on it ... it's rather odd that Gohda survived the fight with demon Kanon. It's extremely odd. No matter how I think about what Yasu's motivations were, there is no purpose keeping Gohda alive that either simply killing him or keeping Nanjo or Kumasawa alive would not serve better. Whim? Quote:
I remamber back in EP4 when I was desperately considering who Gaap's vessel was, and landed on either Nanjo, for the secret-Kinzo-homolust-lulz (though I'm still fairly certain about Genji's), or Jessica, because that just made so ... much ... sense, IMO. |
||
2011-08-03, 18:40 | Link #23556 | ||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Quote:
Though I'd still question wether you should actually remove every character who is not essential to the core system of the story. Efficiency is nice and all...and I also prefer a smaller cast with more development over the mess that was the metaworld...but I think giving characters several purposes only because it's more effitient in terms of plot construction, I don't know. I still think the biggest flaw was that Ryűkishi was actually playing a game with the readers. He might have kept the core story intact, but it really showed in terms of character development. Sometimes I wonder how it would have developed if he hadn't cared for this as a battle of wits at all. |
||
2011-08-03, 21:39 | Link #23557 | ||||
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
Upon review, ep4 4th twilight weakens the bribe idea, I think. Another thought- the "gold truth" may refer to Beatrice (the golden witch) and her narrative, which in these cases is a complete fabrication. Example in ep2 is that not only was the chapel door not locked, but the fact that it was a "closed room" was never even discussed later by any of the characters: No one was even pretending it was a closed room (interestingly, this would allow an argument for Rosa's innocence). And of course, the "gold truth" of ep4 first and second twilights were themselves complete fiction. Gohda is not a true sheep. He also (obviously) lied in ep4 about Kinzo and his entourage in the dining hall. As for the portrayal of other characters, Nanjo and Kumasawa are definitely well connected with Yasu, but regardless of that I think that the accomplices in murder vary from Game to Game, just as the murder methods and order does (all to keep the mystery interesting for Battler). Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Jessica would be an excellent explanation. In my case, I thought Gaap may have been Shannon, based on how George dealt with her. I theorized that maybe Gaap was some other personality of Shannon's (haha, the irony), and that George was holding back because he wanted to defeat Gaap without hurting Shannon. So yeah, like you, I thought that there might be some hints in the magic narrative there, but nope. All noise. Last edited by Wanderer; 2011-08-04 at 01:24. Reason: Got a fact wrong. Fixed it. |
||||
2011-08-03, 22:23 | Link #23558 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
|
Wow, I didn't think you guys disliked certain parts of the Meta World, I liked every part of it, and there were times where I was thinking ''Get on with it, I want to see some red and blue fights!'', I also liked the development even though most of it was pointless, like Goat-Kun.
Ep 5 and 6 pissed me off in that regard though, they ended the Rokkenjima scenes too quickly, and fucking Erika basically cheated. ''Hey btw I knew I would tell you if I sealed a door, but I decided to tell you a bit after I did it because I suck too much to do what I'm good at and troll you in a way that follows the rules, teehee! Enjoy a completely unfair logic error!'', it's a good thing BATTLER was totally prepared for it, I thought Erika was cool until she did that, and at that point I think she shouldn't have been allowed to play the game any further, damn cheater, I was hoping BATTLER would get a full game with no stupidity breaking it halfway. |
2011-08-03, 22:34 | Link #23559 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2010
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-08-03, 22:40 | Link #23560 | |
Goat
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Gnawing away at Rokkenjima
|
Quote:
And I thought Erika was fantastic through and through; a top tier love-to-hate character. I don't remember him needing permission to do this. |
|
|
|