2013-04-08, 16:47 | Link #461 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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Well, what I got out of the discussion so far:
Aku no Hana's visual style: - Focus on unique frames, rather than highly-detailled frames (thanks go to FredFriendly for actually checking the facts) - non-fluid movments (which I didn't notice, but I never do, so that means nothing) - lack of facial detail and shading. So here's what detractors might think: They might think that it's better to focus on making a single frame as detailed as possible than to maximise unique frames. They may think that non-fluid movements and lack of detail detract from the visual experience while adding nothing in return. My own shakey hypothesis earlier in the thread was an attempt to explain what lack of detail might actually bring to the table; that it's not a total loss. I'm not going to repeat that theory, as it's... well, shakey. But I do think that the flaws aren't only flaws; they also bring something to the table that you'd lose if you were to fix the problems. I'm an animation dummy, so all I have is my intuition. (Cyth seems to be in the same boat as I, on this.) Me, I'm not a fan of rotoscoping as a major animation technique (but it's entirely possible that I've watched rotoscoped sequences without noticing). If I were forced to choose between Aku no Hana and A Scanner Darkly (linked earlier), I'd choose Aku no Hana in a heartbeat. A Scanner Darkly rubs me the wrong way in a way that Aku no Hana doesn't, and my hunch is that the "flaws" play a huge part in that. But it's no more than a hunch. Here's an example: In the final scene, I focussed on the way the main-character blinked while looking at the bag. I did that because there was little else to focus on. But that was enough to convey the main character's feelings to me. I'm not well-versed in the visual language, but in literary terms I'd describe it as minimalism which works as a sort of metonymy. I think my take's compatible with Cyth's, but I come at it from a figurative-technique angle rather than from perception psychology. Both approaches aren't perfect. Maybe someone with a background in animation knows what we're talking about. Maybe not. It's hard to express a hunch. But, you know, just because something is hard to express we're not clutching at straws. My main contention with objectivity in art is this: one size doesn't fit all, and if you outline a basic procedure for rotoscoping and then fix Aku no Hana according to those you might get rid of what I thought was interesting in the approach. I'm more interested in criticism that refines the approach than in criticism that rejects it. Rejection is pretty one-note. Of course, there's the possibility that I'm reacting to "suggestive shadows on the wall". Time will tell. Still, there's got to be a reason why I prefer the visuals of Aku no Hana to the visuals of A Scanner Darkly. |
2013-04-08, 17:01 | Link #462 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Age: 37
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Cheap as in they didn't bother to get an actual song for the ending. Of course, it could be said that this was a deliberate decision. It certainly is different from anything else out there. I'll give it credit for being unique. However, if one considers the opening and how many corners they cut there, it stands to reason that they might be doing the same thing with the ending. Hence the reason why I used the word cheap.
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2013-04-08, 17:55 | Link #464 | |
Beyond the Fringe
Join Date: Jun 2011
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A nice synopsis that makes perfect sense to me. Along with you and a few others, there is some intelligent discussion about the content of the episode.
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This is different, however, from some of the best animated sequences that I referred to earlier. Whereas the above sequence lacks detailed animation (or animation at all, so let's say fluid motion of the main object in the frames), the scene during the first episode of Hyouka, for instance, where what's-his-name stares into Chitanda's eyes and gets enveloped in flowers is incredibly animated in great detail, frame-by-frame. From me, this is neither criticism nor praise of the method used in this series. As Joe Friday used to say, "Just the facts, mam." |
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2013-04-08, 18:37 | Link #466 | |
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Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Austria
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So if I get this right, it's like this: They have a highly detailled background, but they just have to do one (or 1+X) picutre(s), because they can copy shifting parts of it. On the other hand, the objects (such as the people) that are actually themselves moving, have individual pictures for each frame. Together that gives a fluid movement for background, but a not-so-fluid movement for people. (Which makes me wonder about how they treat shadows, since they're sort of the interaction between object and background. Can't check right now.) Hyouka, on the other hand, also uses individual pictures for the background, or uses a more "composite" background with more animated objects. So a detractor might say that what Aku no Hana gets wrong is the balance of all the animated objects? It's not that the so much that the people move in a jerky manner, and more that they move jerkily in comparison with the surroundings, which feels odd. Did I miss or misinterpret anything? Talking about animation is frighteningly hard for me. |
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2013-04-08, 19:20 | Link #467 |
Art Block Specialist
Join Date: Jun 2007
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To me personally this show has similar if not worse visual problem as one older PA series , in that the background is too good compare with what you should be focusing on. It results in distracting attention away from what should've be the focal point.
It does make me wonder, if the background is also done in the simple fill-in with no shadows and no grainy effects, would it have such a massive jarring effect? If the art style is consistent across all aspects, maybe it wouldn't look as distracting.
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2013-04-08, 20:17 | Link #469 | ||
Beyond the Fringe
Join Date: Jun 2011
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The images in the following spoiler are the first nine frames of the animation, which lasts only 3/8 of a second in real time. Although it may be hard to tell, the background is "moving" ever so slightly in each of the nine frames (it's easier to tell in a video editor). This gives the background very fluid, slow motion as Blobbo is walking along. Blobbo's movement, on the other hand, appears to be not as fluid, partly, I think, because, our eyes are being tricked. Other than bobbing up and down, he doesn't really seem to be "moving" from one place to another. The background moves side-to-side, and the objects in the distance are getting farther and farther away (a trick of the "camera"), but Blobbo remains basically the same size, in the same place, throughout the whole sequence, which is 20 seconds long (480 frames). He keeps walking towards us, but never gets any closer. The jerkiness usually is the result of using the same "animation" for two or more consecutive frames. Whereas the background of this particular sequence is always "in motion" (each frame from one to the next is different) the part that should be animated, Blobbo, does many sequences of repetitive frames, usually about three in a row. Hence the vaguely erratic behaviour. This is pretty normal to the animation process, even for sequences where a character is moving. Time is money, and it cost 1/3 the money to use one frame three times in a row as it does to animate three separate frames. At 24 frames per second, that's 34,560 frames for 24 minute episode. This is a completely separate issue from the other complaint about the lack of detail in the characters faces, but I'm not going down that street right now. Spoiler for for lots of frame capture images:
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So, maybe, if the backgrounds were as "flat" or "drab" as these characters, we might not be hearing so many complaints. I tend to doubt it, though, as it seems that many, if not most of the complaints are related to the differences between the artistic style of the source material and the animation style of the episode. |
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2013-04-08, 20:18 | Link #470 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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(Unless you're being sarcastic. My sarcasm-dar doesn't work so late at night...) |
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2013-04-08, 20:34 | Link #472 | |
/人◕ ‿‿ ◕人\
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: United States
Age: 37
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In fact, now that I know that the show has deliberately manipulated a piece of existing music to something even more strange than it was to start with I feel compelled to shake my head. First the lackluster OP, then the rotoscoping, and now this ED. It's nice when producers are willing to stake their money and reputation on something that's different, but this show reeks of being different for the sake of being different. I'm not sure that I like that. In any case, thank you, totoum, for pointing that out to me.
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Last edited by Rosalena; 2013-04-08 at 20:47. |
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2013-04-08, 20:56 | Link #475 |
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Join Date: Aug 2007
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Sarcastic or not I am sure some people are thinking this so, the ANN staff are not hipsters for liking Aku no Hana (nor is anyone in this thread) but I don't think ANN is the authority on anything.
They run an informative website about anime but their opinions are just well their opinions. And heck the person I agree with the most often (Bamboo) hasn't even weighed in yet.
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2013-04-08, 21:30 | Link #476 | |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Philippines
Age: 47
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If anyone could just look past the animation, and instead focus on the story and its relevance, then TBH it should be worth watching. --------- Spoiler for Initial observations:
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2013-04-08, 21:33 | Link #477 |
Hiding Under Your Bed
Join Date: May 2008
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ANN Previews, even by the only contributor I respect (Bamboo), are often wildly off the mark, showing it's hard to judge an anime based of one, or even three, episodes. I've seen Bamboo crucify shows in her preview impressions, only to later praise them to high heaven (rightfully so! ), once the series is done. It's also why, despite wanting to fall asleep during episode 1, I'm willing to give it a few more episodes (especially since I've been told it's dark as ****).
TL;DR: Don't take previews so seriously. I mean, the only reason I care what someone else thinks is because they have an opinion I tend to value; not because I care about the opinion itself, but because I care about what it says about the person. Generally speaking, however, the mass social consensus on whether something is good/bad/neutral has no effect on whether I'm going to enjoy something.
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2013-04-08, 22:24 | Link #478 |
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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I noticed that too. In a way, the animation forces you to notice this, by repeating signature scenes on the way to school, all of which are decrepit: the alley, the several dilapidated signs.
I was wondering if this dilapidation reflects post-war conditions in Japan. Does anyone recall any cues that let us know when the action is supposed to be taking place?
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Last edited by hyperborealis; 2013-04-08 at 23:11. |
2013-04-08, 22:50 | Link #479 | ||
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Location: Philippines
Age: 47
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Google Maps Blog entry with photographs To repeat what I told to a friend on FB, Quote:
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Last edited by sa547; 2013-04-08 at 23:18. |
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2013-04-08, 23:43 | Link #480 |
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
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Thsnks. The blog post's comparisons of actual stills to scenes from the anime were striking.
The anime is evidently set in contemporary times. But there is a certain ahistoricity to the images: with the exception of the satellite dish, nothing in the scenes would have been out of place 30 or 40 years ago. This lack of newly made or high-tech artifacts contributes to the overall feeling of poverty and age conveyed by these scenes.
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